Yellow Box Junction- Code 31 help needed

[starfarer]

Hi all,

 

day before yesterday I got a letter from tfl about code 31 - Entering and Stopping in a box junction when prohibited, date of notice: 17th march 2010.

 

I was behind a car and both of us were moving steadily. Close to traffic signal, it started changing to amber and I continued to follow the car ahead only to find the traffic infront was stationary and I was forced to stopped on yellow box. I do agree that it's no denial that I actually had to put on neutral on the box and believe me, I joked with a fren on passenger seat that in London many councils issue ticket on here only to come back on me . But few things:

 

1) I was new on area and focussing on tomtom for guidance, safe drive and as was moving steadily behind a car, assumed the traffic ahead was moving/clear.

2) The yellow box is too far from the entry traffic signal to be clearly visible especially while driving

3) Because of the car in front, my visibility was blocked for the evaluation of the traffic ahead and the presence of box itself.

 

Location is : Camberwell New Rd/Bolton Crescent/ Foxley Road (London)

 

Google map streetview shots:

1)

my direction of driving is north here (following back of van)

 

2)

yellow box view from entry point which looks too far to notice

 

3)

Yellow box view from opposite driving direction

 

I will scan PCN tomorrow and post it here. VRM and car are clearly visible on PCN.

 

Any help will be appreciated and should I just pay or appeal.

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited March 21, 2010 by starfarer

[starfarer]

sorry for big photos.

 

And photo of my car on box.

 

Edited March 21, 2010 by starfarer

[starfarer]

PCN

 

Edited March 21, 2010 by starfarer

[green_and_mean]

What a stupid box junction it serves no purpose whatsoever if you wait to enter it you still block the merging traffic so its totally pointless as far as I can see.

[starfarer]

yeah ,I think there is probably enough space to stop where that blue car is making right turn/entering junction (google photo 2) which is now apparent on still photo. But then I would probably would have got someother code stopping right in the middle of traffic :? Anyway I don't honestly know whether we're allowed/supposed to stop at that point if the traffic ahead is stationary ( only driving in UK for 1 year, previous was based in HongKong for 7 years).

 

My point is box is too far from entry point which I assume is the first traffic light. A car was infront completely covering my visibility of presence of such box and we both entered as moving. Traffic at the time was most probably moving very erratically. I'm 100% sure that I definitely stopped at the box but not for very long at most 10 seconds.

[JimmySpangle]

You keep referring to 'entry point'. The entry point for the box junction is the box itself. Do not enter the box..... You can wait before it and block the traffic or crossing without committing any offence, but once you stop in the box (unless turning right) the offence is committed.

[green_and_mean]

I would appeal the junction is marked out in a fashion that you are forced to offend. The box and bus lane are not marked in advance and once the lights change you are commited to crossing the junction but once you get to the other side you have a non compliant bus lane and a pointless box junction so you either get a bus lane ticket, a box junction ticket or sit in the middle of the junction blocking the traffic! The box does not comply with the correct legal markings but has been authorised by the DofT that authorisation just means they are allowed to use it, it doesn't mean its marked out in such a way it does not confuse. There have been adjudications in other locations that have allowed appeals on non compliant 'approved' box junctions.

Another point to bear in mind is that the contravention is stopping in a box junction the box in this case is in fact beyond the junction so technically its not a proper box junction.

Edited March 21, 2010 by green_and_mean

[green_and_mean]

If you are prepared to gamble on losing your discount and going all the way to adjudication I would appeal on the grounds that you did not enter and stop within a box junction since the box is not within the junctin as shown in the TSRGD it is fact beyond the junction.

[sailor sam]

I agree with G & M. I don't think the box junction is correctly marked. take a look here for further guidence;

 

How to appeal parking tickets, bus lane tickets, yellow box junction and moving traffic tickets

 

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[lamma]

You keep referring to 'entry point'. The entry point for the box junction is the box itself. Do not enter the box..... You can wait before it and block the traffic or crossing without committing any offence, but once you stop in the box (unless turning right) the offence is committed.

 

Not if the exit was clear when you entered.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Not if the exit was clear when you entered.

 

Nor if it was blocked by anything other than stationary traffic.

[lamma]

I agree. Some adjudicators do not and quote the Highway Code. A scandal. Always quote the TSRGD regs verbatim in full in a YBJ appeal and quote the part of the Highway Code that refers the reader to the actual legislation. Head them off at the pass.

[JimmySpangle]

Not if the exit was clear when you entered.

 

Absolutely.

 

I don't agree with G&M's view that the OP had no choice than to enter the box. They could have stopped short of it and just abstructed the pedestrian croossing or the road.

 

Whether the box is correctly laid out/marked is a possible appeal point, buit nobody forced the OP to drive into the box.

[green_and_mean]

Absolutely.

 

I don't agree with G&M's view that the OP had no choice than to enter the box. They could have stopped short of it and just abstructed the pedestrian croossing or the road.

 

Whether the box is correctly laid out/marked is a possible appeal point, buit nobody forced the OP to drive into the box.

 

Having psychic powers is not a requirement of the driving test, the offence is entering and stopping if the exit is not clear. Since the bus lane is not marked in advance how is the OP meant to know that the lane is not available for use until the junction is crossed? There are two lanes prior to the lights, traffic in the left hand lane has a clear exit until entering the junction and finding the way blocked by a bus lane. It is a reasonable expectation that a junction may be protected with a yellow box but why would you check for box junction markings where there is no junction? The Highway code states that you should only progress past a green light if you can clear the junction stopping in the middle of a junction and obstructing the crossing and/or the junction is no better than stopping in a yellow box.

[starfarer]

Absolutely.

 

I don't agree with G&M's view that the OP had no choice than to enter the box. They could have stopped short of it and just abstructed the pedestrian croossing or the road.

 

Whether the box is correctly laid out/marked is a possible appeal point, buit nobody forced the OP to drive into the box.

 

Well first thing is I didn't noticed yellow box until well over it. Even if i had, I think I would had still gone to yellow box simply of instinct of not wanting to stop in the middle of road. I know now and in similar situation in future my choice will be not to get PCN.

 

There are two lanes prior to the lights, traffic in the left hand lane has a clear exit until entering the junction and finding the way blocked by a bus lane. It is a reasonable expectation that a junction may be protected with a yellow box but why would you check for box junction markings where there is no junction?

 

Good point. I can make use of above lines if decided to go with appeal.

 

@sailor sam: thanks for link. 3 things comes out:

1) The yellow lines must go into at least two of the corners of the box.

 

Not sure what it means but looking at diagram, I guess at one end of the box lines should not be meeting with each other. Eg Right-bottom on 1043 and right-top on 1044

 

2) The box should go right up to the kerb

 

If to assume that google streetview is accurate, then box clearly are way off the kerbs.

 

3) A yellow box at a T junction should cover only half of the junction (the half next to the side road)

 

Again not sure what the junction can be classified as crossroad or T but as the box used is diagram 1044, I assume it is T-junction. On google photo 3(post 1), On Entry from right, the box is way off but exit on right, box covers more than half the side road.

 

4) A box which deviates from the standards requires approval from the Department for Transport (DfT)

 

just wondering, how many deviations are allowed.

 

 

My head is spinning trying to cope with the correct meaning of simple written english but gaining in confidence to appeal.

 

Now how to proceed. Do I first write informal letter on provided email or straight to representation.

 

Oh, Thank you guys for all replies. Very helpful and great discussion both pro and against. Still eager for more views.

[green_and_mean]

:

A box which deviates from the standards requires approval from the Department for Transport (DfT)

 

 

Which it has got.

[starfarer]

official appeal out of window then.

 

Only way now looks to be to write an informal consideration letter giving cirmustances and difficulty faced on the day in the hope that someone reading my letter also reading this thread

[lamma]

go see the video, it is the only way to find out as it is an allegation of a moving contravention Letter of the Law Money Box Junction

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

official appeal out of window then.

 

 

Not how I see it. You can still appeal that it is not a yellow box junction so no contravention and that you stopped to avoid contravening the bus lane rather than because of stationary traffic so no contravention there.

 

Not only that but make TFL prove that it has the necessary approval. Not that I doubt G&M but it is TFL's job to prove it.

[starfarer]

So, let's say I appeal making rep against PCN and demand to view video and Dfl approval of box junction. Rejection letter will come probably within days time but video viewing could be after a month by which time I'd already lost the chance for 50% discount. Is it?

 

What are the chances (just comforting myself) that responsible person reads and evaluate the letters?

[green_and_mean]

What are the chances (just comforting myself) that responsible person reads and evaluate the letters?

 

Since you are appealling that the restriction itself is flawed rather than you personally did nothing wrong I would suspect whoever reads the letter it would still have to progress to PATAS, Tfl are unlikely going to agree they are in the wrong on a technical matter. I still feel that you have a good chance of appeal because the box is not actually within the junction. If you take into account that there is also a cycle box prior to the lights the yellow box is almost impossible to see if waiting at the lights.

[crem]

What is the purpose of the box? I can't work out which traffic they are trying to keep flowing by stopping cars parking over that area.

[green_and_mean]

What is the purpose of the box? I can't work out which traffic they are trying to keep flowing by stopping cars parking over that area.

 

I agree its stupid it actually makes you stop in the junction rather than cross it leaving it clear.

[starfarer]

Not good at writing letters but here's attempt. Comment on your heart's desire.

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

RE: XXXXXXX- There was no contravention of an order or failure to comply with an indication on a sign

 

On 20th March 2010, I received a Penalty Charge Notice GTXXXXXX for code 31 describing as Entering and Stopping in a box junction when prohibited, alleged offence occurred on 15th march 2010 at 06:48 hrs. Not denying that such not occurred, I would like to point out to you the circumstances which were beyond my control at the time and forced on only sensible available option that I undertook which is to stop at yellow box junction for the time of 5 seconds most.

 

On the day, I was making west ward journey the destination being Heathrow airport. Long before the Camberwell new road/foxley road/Bolton crescent junction, the traffic was flowing smooth and steadily. As you can see from my address, I’m new to the area and was mostly relying on navigation device for guidance and safe driving being main priority, probably failed to notice the warning board for the yellow box junction and CCTV enforcement which I believed are required by law and were present on the required distances for warning purposes. There is a warning board for CCTV enforcement but without the purpose of it at the bus stop before entering the traffic signal.

 

I was behind a car approaching traffic signal light and we both were moving steadily within lawful speed limits. On my crossing, the light was changing to amber for red and I continued as within law. Few things to note here:

 

• The location of the yellow box junction from eastward traffic light is in great length including Cycle track across and a pedestrian crossing.

• I was behind a moving car and my visibility of the presence of yellow box was blocked to an extend to describe as “Unabled to see” factoring with the distant placement once entered through traffic signal.

• I was behind a moving car and my visibility to evaluate the traffic flow ahead again was blocked to an extend to describe as “Unabled” factoring with the distance needed to clear the whole section.

• As I was entering traffic signal on steady speed, assumed traffic ahead was moving, again blocked clear view by the moving car ahead.

• The T-junction merges at an angle approximately at below 45 degree angle and driving from eastward, I was not aware of the such junction. Again I failed to notice a warning board of the junction ahead.

 

Once through the traffic signal, I realised that the car ahead was stopping and I was left with these choices:

• Change on left lane which was/is bus lane. Please note that before the traffic signal point and after the bus stop, the road have two allowable lanes. Bus lane is not marked in advance nor the merging lane markings on the road.

• Stop before the yellow box junction, which is middle of the traffic. I am unsure of the consequences of such but at the point, I became aware of the junctions ahead and pedestrian crossing zone, so continued forward.

• Yellow box junction as again no signage for allowed right turn from the travelling direction.

 

My action was un-intentional and only the circumstances requiring split seconds decision forced me to stop. I’ve the good memory of the day and event for the reasons stated above and would like to request to you to view the video footage to confirm.

 

On my research of the matter, I’ve found few deviations on the markings of yellow box junction from the one that’s stated on The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2002, namely:

• The yellow lines must go into at least two of the corners of the box

• The box should go right up to the kerb

• A yellow box at a T junction should cover only half of the junction (the half next to the side road)

 

I’ve also noted that deviations are allowed as long have the approval from Department for Transport (DfT). This is not my intention of appeal as believe that yellow box junction serves certain purposes but would like to request an evidence of approval.

 

I would be grateful if you could consider my circumstances on the day which is not an intentional but the dynamic situation forced me to take the best solution possible and cancel the Penalty Charge Notice . I do understand that the enforcements are required for the traffic flow and safety reasons and always followed them without fail.

 

Thanking You.

[starfarer]

Failure to comply with sign, are these needed:

 

1) warning board: a board is present only stating CCTV enforcement. Doesn't state the purpose. is it enough?

 

2) Junction ahead board : not sure but probably was not present

 

Thanks.