London Borough of Barnet - Bus Lane Offence (not parking) - Cloned Car?!

[The Guv.]

Hi all, just to clear things up this isn't a parking offence but a bus lane offence- thought this might be a good place to post though.

 

I was given a car in part exchange for a car I sold and it was put in my name etc (v5 wasn't present at the time of exchange).

 

The car was towed back to my place and sat in the garage until someone purchased it from me in late december.

 

In the following year, March 2009 I think, I got a letter from London Borough of Barnet claiming that in early december this car was seen driving on a bus lane in Barnet.

 

It simply isn't possible- so it has to be a cloned car, the photos are too dark to see anything apart from the registration plate.

 

I called them up when I got the letter and explained that I don't own the car anymore and that although I was the owner when this apparently happened, it simply wasn't possible that it was that car or me driving it (the car was a non-runner at the time).

 

The lady on the phone said just write in to appeal and she'll write the notes up.

 

Did that, then got a letter saying that I had to prove that the car was cloned and that I had to provide them with the tax disc serial number and some other bits and bobs including a crime reference number when I reported that the car had been cloned!

 

I called them up again and explained, I haven't reported it because I've only just been made aware of the situation and that I don't own the car anymore to be able to provide the things they asked for.

 

They told me to phone the Police and report the crime- I phoned the Police and informed them of everything and they told me that they cannot report the crime as I am not the owner or registered keeper of the car! They then told me that I should tell the London Borough of Barnet a few lines that basically amounted to 'It is unfair for you to request information that is not avaliable to me at this time as I am no longer the owner or registered keeper of the car in question'.

 

To which London Borough of Barnet said, 'Call the Police and report the crime, we need a crime number along with the details requested previously'.

 

What the hell I thought! So I called the Police again and asked what I should do and they said that I should write in to the London Borough of Barnet explaining everything in writing to date and gave me his name to include on the letter as my point of contact.

 

I did this and didn't get any response- I then got a letter from 'JBW Group' claiming that they have been appointed to collect the sum of £423.75 for London Borough of Barnet! I then called and said it was in dispute and I was waiting a response from the London Borough of Barnet.

 

For a year I heard nothing... Now, today, I get a letter from JBW Group stating:

 

RE: London Borough of Barnet

 

Date: 15 March 2010

 

Dear Sirs,

 

We have now obtained an update from the DVLA and as a result have instructed out Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) vehicle to attend your area with the view of seizing (levying on) and removing (impounding) your vehicle.

 

To prevent your vehicle from being seized and removed you must pay what you owe now. You can do this immediately by calling 01329 555 286 with your debit card. Please note that this is a 24 hour service.

 

Your vehicle details have already been updated onto our ANPR vehicles and this notice is not indended to delay the enforcement process. If your vehicle is located at anytime either during the posting of this letter or before this letter is received additional charges will be added.

 

Please refer to our Customer Care Pack at JBW for further information.

 

Our office opening times are Mon-Fri 08:00 - 20:00 and Sat 09:00 - 13:00.

 

Yours sincerley,

 

JBWGroup

 

Advice please!

 

I don't own the car and haven't done for over a year, so what is this 'update' from the DVLA? Can they clamp or remove my other car?

 

Thanks in advance!

[The Guv.]

Just called the JBW Group and they said that they do not have to communicate with me regarding disputes and that I should refer back to the issuing authority... After I explained that this wasn't a parking ticket as they have on their system but a bus lane penality they put the phone down on me! Can they just do that?

[2ltr16valve]

Just called the JBW Group and they said that they do not have to communicate with me regarding disputes and that I should refer back to the issuing authority... After I explained that this wasn't a parking ticket as they have on their system but a bus lane penality they put the phone down on me! Can they just do that?

 

 

Sadly bailiefs do as they like, regardless of what the law says.... *cue HCE* LOL

 

Not very good customer service, is there any way you can get the details of the person you sold it too ? surely you kept a copy of the receipt with their details on ?

[The Guv.]

I have a copies of the filled in log book and receipt with the new owners details on it.

 

Sadly it was sold on the 30th Dec 2008 and this is a charge on the 12th Dec 2008, the letter about it was sent to me in April 2009! (just got the letters out so my above dates are a little off).

 

So legally I was the registered keeper of the car in question however it simply isn't possible as the car didn't flipping drive and wasn't insured, parked on private land.

 

What else can I do? I've just downloaded a Statutory Declaration (PE3) and Application to file a Statutory Declaration ‘Out of Time’ (PE2).

 

I plan on getting these sent off tomorrow.

 

Thanks for any advice in advance.

[2ltr16valve]

I have a copies of the filled in log book and receipt with the new owners details on it.

 

Sadly it was sold on the 30th Dec 2008 and this is a charge on the 12th Dec 2008, the letter about it was sent to me in April 2009! (just got the letters out so my above dates are a little off).

 

So legally I was the registered keeper of the car in question however it simply isn't possible as the car didn't flipping drive and wasn't insured, parked on private land.

 

What else can I do? I've just downloaded a Statutory Declaration (PE3) and Application to file a Statutory Declaration ‘Out of Time’ (PE2).

 

I plan on getting these sent off tomorrow.

 

Thanks for any advice in advance.

 

 

Hmm, I understand that you were the keeper at the time... but they want the tax disc serial etc... maybe if they keep the tax discs you can get that.

I had something similar a few years ago with the congestion charge in London, was sent a fine for not paying... when my car had not moved the whole week and was parked outside my house, lucky I have CCTV so easily proved them wrong and someone was using my plates.. the car being used was a slightly different shade in colour as well.

 

 

All I can suggest, do you have any receipts for work that was done on the car that would of prohibited its movement dates AFTER the offence ?

 

Can you prove where you were on the date and rough (as close to) time of the ticket ?

 

aside from that, get the video of the car from them.... and appeal, and take to court I would think.

 

As for the JBW twats and their ANPR letter, they will come and look for what ever reg they have for you.... I do not know if this applies to your current car, as they can seize your possessions to secure the debt... so would think this extends to anything owned by you..... amounts to modern day highway robbery !

 

 

I am sure someone more helpful will be along soon

[lamma]

"Did that, then got a letter saying that I had to prove that the car was cloned " can we see that letter. sounds like the ocuncil was wrong, they have to prove the contravention. the bailiffs just want your money, they don't want you 'wriggling out' even though it cleary wasn't you. you need to control these people. Get an OOT declaration filed fast. ikeep your current vehicles(s) locked in a garage, they are theones the bailiffs will have ulpoaded into theor ANPR and if they turn up do NOT open the door, and keep all your windows closed. Now they know you may 'wriggle out' they may step up their efforts to put the squeeze on you before you 'escape' their clutches. we need to know what forms were recieved, NTO, CHarge Cert OfR etc ? and when. re the bailffs google the last three words on this sentence in a single search - bailiff advice online.

[The Guv.]

Apart from being with my family down in Kent for the whole of December and the car was garaged in London, no form of evidence that I can think of!

 

No chance of chasing the new owner up even if they still have the car.

 

As for repair bills, I fixed it myself so I've got nothing, I fixed it on the day of selling as I knew what the problem was before I took it in as px.

 

Thinking back, I can't even remember seeing the photos, just the call handler telling me that from the photos you can't make the colour of the car out or anything about the car, it's pretty much just a number plate in a mass of black and orange haze from what I remember her saying.

 

The original PCN was sent on 23/03/2009, although the call handler said it was sent in April looking at my notes:

 

This Notice is issued by the London Borough of Barnet ('the Council') under the above Acts.

 

The Council believes that a Penalty Charge is payable with respect to the above vehicle for the following alleged traffic contravention: being in a bus lane in West Hendon Broadway NW9 on 12/12/2008 at 18:22

 

This alleged contravention was seen and recorded by a camera operator who was observing real time pictures from a road side camera at the time stated. This alleged contravention is supported by video recording of your vehicle in the bus lane.

 

I'm going to file the OOT declaration tomorrow (fax/e-mail) and hopefully they can call the bailiffs off the same day?

 

According to JBW they only hold the records of the offending car.

[The Guv.]

Doing some research, I found this:

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

Re: Document PCN EA*********

 

On [DATE] I received a document which purports to be a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued by Ealing Council. However, this document does not conform to the legal requirements for a PCN.

 

Part 2 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003; section 6 (Limitation on service of penalty charge notice) states:

 

“(1) Subject to the provisions of this section; no penalty charge notice may be served under this Act after the expiry of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention or failure to comply occurred.”

 

If you check the purported PCN you will see the date of the alleged contravention is stated as [CONTRAVENTION DATE] and the date of notice is [NOTICE DATE]. This is a period of some [N] days, which is in excess of the statutory 28 day limit.

 

I look forward to receiving your confirmation that this document is invalid and that it has been cancelled. If I do not receive a response within 28 days of the date of this letter I will assume that you accept its contents.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

Persecuted Motorist

 

The person who sent this had a positive response and the PCN revoked.

 

Considering my PCN was served well beyond the 28 day period (took 102 days!), can they enforce this?

[The Guv.]

London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 (c. 3)

[JimmySpangle]

This is exactly why the WORST thing you can do is exactly what you did. Keep calling them. Get things in writing. Stop using the phone and start using pen and paper again.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

This is exactly why the WORST thing you can do is exactly what you did. Keep calling them. Get things in writing. Stop using the phone and start using pen and paper again.

 

Surely doing nothing is worse!

[The Guv.]

Just called Barnet to seek advice and they told me that despite the above, they are able to enforce a PCN up to 12 months after the offence?! Is this possible??

[The Guv.]

I appreciate that writing letters is possibly better than calling and e-mailing however I simply don't have the time to deal with this.

 

Barnet were a little helpful in the fact that they said they would contact the bailiffs and hold their instruction while I do an out of time appeal and that they do not have the authority to seize goods as they suggested or indeed enter my property.

[lamma]

and you believed Barnet ?

[The Guv.]

It seems that they sent a PCN to someone who I can only assume was the previous owner of the car, and it took over 3 months for them to send the PCN to me (transferring liability they called it). The DVLA had my details by the time the PCN was raised so I don't know why they addressed someone else.

 

Could they use this to enforce the PCN saying that, I was served the PCN within 28 days of knowing my name and address?

[2ltr16valve]

I appreciate that writing letters is possibly better than calling and e-mailing however I simply don't have the time to deal with this.

 

Barnet were a little helpful in the fact that they said they would contact the bailiffs and hold their instruction while I do an out of time appeal and that they do not have the authority to seize goods as they suggested or indeed enter my property.

 

 

PMSL ! Never heard of a false sense of security ?

 

Trust what your told here, most of us have had dealings either directly or indirectly in this sort of situation

 

These virmin will do what ever they can to get your cash or property.

[The Guv.]

When I do an out of time appeal, should I bother stating that it's not possible I was the driver of the car or that it was not the same car? Or should I just say, it was over the 28 day period allowed and set out in such and such policy therefore bugger off?

[lamma]

the driver is irrelevent, thats why they send a Notice to Owner. The sooner you get your head around this the better your chances of coming out unscathed. Sorry to sound so brutal but it is not meant so, just trying to help you get a good result.

[The Guv.]

Yeah I understand that, and I understand that they are assuming the registered keeper was the owner.

 

As it's simply not possible it was the same car, and it seems to be completely impossible to make out any detail of the photographic evidence other than a glowing number plate, I can't see that they have much of a case? Especially as it's beyond the 28 day deadline, no?

[lamma]

then why even consider the driver point ? the issue is to get a grip of the enforcement and stop it in its tracks. reset the clock to the NTO then fight the PCN.

[The Guv.]

In the PE3:

I appealed against this PCN as it is simply not possible that this is the same car, furthermore the PCN was

sent to myself on 23/03/2009, this is a period of some 103 days, which is in excess of the statutory 28 day limit.

 

Part 2 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003; section 6 (Limitation on service of

penalty charge notice).

 

I have not received a response from the London Borough of Barnet in relation to my most recent appeal.

 

In the PE2:

My reasons for filing the Statutory Declaration outside the given time are as follows:

(Do not give your reasons for appeal against the original penalty charge on this form).

 

I have not received a response from the London Borough of Barnet in relation to my most recent appeal.

 

Sound alright?

[NYCSavage]

If the car was off the road as claimed, then surely you will have had a SORN notice registered? Wont that be proof?

[patdavies]

If the car was off the road as claimed, then surely you will have had a SORN notice registered? Wont that be proof?

 

SORN would not provide 'proof' as it is very easy (although obviously illegal) to drive a SORN vehicle

[The Guv.]

Off the road in terms of being on private land and it was a 'non-runner'. Sorry if I added confusion, it had road tax otherwise I wouldn't have been able to tow it or let the buyer drive it away.

 

Thanks.