Clamp removed and vehicle driven away.

[lamma]

do NOT hand it over at your home address.

[Jamberson]

why don't you take it to their premises and dump it there?

[HomerJSimpson]

why don't you take it to their premises and dump it there?

 

Or secure it around the steering and suspension of one of their vans ( for safe keeping of course );-)

 

And offer to remove your padlock securing it for a ridiculous fee:lol:

[jkdd77]

I'm just about to head off to the police station, I'll let you know what they say!

 

Thanks for the advice so far guys, I agree with Bernie about sending them an ultimatum for removal, I'll write them a letter tonight giving them a week to remove it before I remove it myself.

 

I really wouldn't want to give these criminal goons your home address- they could re-clamp your car, tow it away, or even assault you (indeed, this could also happen if you arrange to meet them anywhere else).

 

Just cut it off, or, better still, get a friend to cut it off for you- it's a safety hazard, it unlawfully prevents you from driving your vehicle, and they wouldn't be able to prove the identity of the cutter beyond reasonable doubt in either case.

 

If the chain disappears completely after being cut off they'd have difficulty proving it was damaged at all.

 

They can't prosecute by themselves- they'd need the police and CPS to agree both that it was in the public interest to pursue, and that there was a realistic chance of a conviction. Under the circumstances, I think that is very unlikely to happen.

 

PS- No need to tell us who cuts it off, for obvious reasons.

Edited March 17, 2010 by jkdd77

[Mundane-o]

Ok, so the police station proved to be very interesting! At first they were a bit oo-err about it all, as they weren't sure of the legality of what I had done. I had to wait to speak to an officer and thought it would be just bloody typical if I were to be arrested for this. Eventually they called me back over and said that it was absolutely not a police matter, and what I had done was perfectly acceptable and legal. I asked weather they had any grounds to sue me for theft and they said that for it to be theft they have to be able to prove that I had no intention of returning the clamp to them, and since I had been to the police to try and return it this clearly isn't the case. As far as the police are concerned I am well within my rights and shouldn't believe anything they say to me. Excellent!

 

The police have told me to write to the clampers saying that I have their clamp and they are welcome to collect it at any time. They have given me a case number to reference in my letter too.

 

So my plan from here is to write to the clampers and offer them to collect the clamp, I will be giving them 1 week to do so before I start charging them for it's removal. I will also say that I am giving them the same week to remove the chain from my suspension, and after that I will be removing it myself and charging them for my time. As luck would have it my lecturer's wife is a lawyer and is willing to help me turn my draft letter into something a bit more hard-hitting and legal-ish.

 

I don't think I have the option to just pretend the chain wasn't there now though, I have mentioned it to them over the phone and also mentioned it to the police last night and at the CAB today. I think the best thing for me to do here is to just rise above it and keep a calm head, that way they will have absolutely nothing to use against me at any point in the future.

 

Thanks again for all the advice!

Edited March 17, 2010 by Mundane-o

[Mundane-o]

Oh and Re: the home address thing, I'm really not fussed about them knowing this to be honest. I live in rented student accommodation, and my car is either on a public highway or on my own private land so they have absolutely no right to clamp it again. I would be able to call the police straight away and they would face massive fines and lose their licenses.

[jkdd77]

Be warned that, although it is without question whollly unlawful to clamp over alleged past debts, many cowboy clampers do so anyway, and in almost all cases the police will insist "it's a civil matter sir".

 

If this does happen, you may find yourself with a choice between cutting off the clamp on the one hand, and paying an unlawful ransom demand with no chance whatsoever of ever seeing your money again on the other hand.

 

In this case: Car towed illegally? - FightBack Forums

a car was unlawfully towed over alleged past debts, with the cowboy clampers demanding £1,500 for its return, and the police insisted as always that it "was a civil matter".

 

If that happens, then you're basically stuffed.

[JimmySpangle]

1. They absolutely cannot clamp your car on public roads.

 

2. If they stray onto your property to clamp, then THEY are the ones that can be arrested for trespass. You could angle grind the clamp to pieces and they could nothing more than watch from the street.

[Mundane-o]

I don't know, as far as I'm aware it's totally illegal to clamp on the public roads in England unless you are licensed to do so. And I have no outstanding debt with them, the £120 release fee is just that - a charge for releasing your vehicle as they assume you cannot do it yourself. Since I released the car myself I don't owe them a thing.

 

But yeah, I see what you mean and I'm hoping it won't come to anything like that. My car's clutch is on it's way out so I don't mind taking it off the road, and my Peugeot 205 is way more fun to drive anyway.

[mightymouse_69]

Not cutting chain of straight away - good call.

 

Is there an alternate address for you to arrange for them to pick their property up from? The university campus maybe?

[jkdd77]

Not cutting chain of straight away - good call.

 

 

Realistically, he'll only end up having to cut it off in a week's time anyway after the cowboy clampers ignore this "offer"- if it really is "criminal damage", then it is criminal regardless of whether the chain is cut off now, in a week's time, or in a year's time.

 

If the chain is cut off by a friend, without witnesses, the chain disappears without trace, and nothing is admitted, then the chances of being convicted are less than the chances of winning the lottery.

 

What's the alternative, anyway- paying a wholly unlawful ransom demand with absolutely no chance whatsoever of ever seeing his money again, after the clampers default on the CCJ?

 

What would you suggest the OP does if the cowboy clampers do clamp his car on his own property over alleged past debts?

Edited March 17, 2010 by jkdd77

[crem]

You are wasting far too much time and effort on this than it deserves.

 

If I were you I would absolutely not give them any information regarding your home address as, legal or not, they may re-clamp your car, do serious damage to your car (in secret) or worse still do serious damage to your body!.

 

Tell them you are returning the clamp tomorrow to the location they left it in, i.e. that side road, and they can collect it from there. As for the additional chain, well there is no record that this was ever put on your car and I suspect it was highly illegal to do so anyway. Get it cut off and disposed of complete and don't even try to return it to the clamper.

 

Your "you have 7 days to come and remove it" letter is a complete waste of time and only means your car is out of action for another 7 days.

[mightymouse_69]

Realistically, he'll only end up having to cut it off in a week's time anyway after the cowboy clampers ignore this "offer"- if it really is "criminal damage", then it is criminal regardless of whether the chain is cut off now, in a week's time, or in a year's time.

 

If the chain is cut off by a friend, without witnesses, the chain disappears without trace, and nothing is admitted, then the chances of being convicted are less than the chances of winning the lottery.

 

What's the alternative, anyway- paying a wholly unlawful ransom demand with absolutely no chance whatsoever of ever seeing his money again, after the clampers default on the CCJ?

 

What would you suggest the OP does if the cowboy clampers do clamp his car on his own property over alleged past debts?

 

I know, but cutting of immediatly would have only complicated matters. He has given them reasonable time, and has informed the Police of his situation.

 

Don't forget - the chain is still property, and it still belongs to the clampers. By giving them time to collect it means he can go down the "abandonment" route should the clampers feel a bit litigious.

 

Being realistic - the CPS probably wouldnt touch the case any way (unless you happen to be covered by the London CPS who were in the papers recently...)

 

However, its all about making things easier in the long run surely?

 

As for if they come along and clamp his car at home... well i did mention finding an alternative place for him to return the items.

 

However, should they enter his property to try and get to his car... im sure the police would be ineterested. If they were not it shows a massive amount of lazyness on their part. Don't forget - you can use reasonable force to eject trespassers

[Mundane-o]

There is an alternate address, but if they agree to remove the chain then they will need to get to my car and I really don't want to drive it anywhere. The chain is at risk of seriously damaging my suspension if I were to hit any unexpected bumps!

[mightymouse_69]

There is an alternate address, but if they agree to remove the chain then they will need to get to my car and I really don't want to drive it anywhere. The chain is at risk of seriously damaging my suspension if I were to hit any unexpected bumps!

 

TBH - you probably would be safe cutting it...

 

.. but there is always that "what if" - specially if they respond to you saying "yes we will have our clamp and chain back!"

 

Can you pick locks? Then have the pleasure of handing it back claiming you used... magic maybe

[Jamberson]

It's your car. Cut the chain off. Dump it.

[letshelp]

If you are not comfortable cutting off the chain, well, after you have told all your 'friends' about this incident, one of them may, without your knowledge of course cut the chain and padlock off your car using an angle grinder, this 'good friend' may then dump the damm thing in the nearest tip.

If the police do get involved in the matter then all you can tell them it was probably one of two hundred and fifty people I told in the 'dog & Duck Pub'. Now was it wednesday or thursday I told them all about it, sorry Officer I can't remember.

regards

[Mundane-o]

Right, here's the first draught of my letter to PCM.

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am writing to you regarding the clamping of my vehicle, XXXX XXX, outside the XXX Bus depot in Hatfield, Hertfordshire. I am sure you are well aware of the situation as we have spoken on the phone, but I will outline it for the record.

 

I was parked at the end of a cul-de-sac off Gypsy Moth Lane, just outside the XXX depot, on an area that I believed to be a public road. I was told it was acceptable to park here by employees at the depot while I borrowed a van for university business. Upon entering the road I did not notice any signs indicating that it was private land or that clamping was in operation, and judged by the absence of yellow lines or parking bays that there were no parking restrictions in force.

At 13:21 on 16/03/2010 officer Hendry clamped my vehicle, and at roughly 17:30 when I returned the van I discovered the clamp. Hendry arrived at the scene shortly afterwards and made demands for the release fee, after I explained I could not get the money until the next day Hendry informed me that my vehicle would be towed away at an extra cost of £250.

I had attempted to jack up the vehicle and at this point Hendry padlocked a chain to my front suspension spring in an attempt to discourage me from continuing. I left the scene and returned at roughly 20:30 with tools to remove the clamp. I did so by removing the wheel from the vehicle, and then unbolting the suspension components, withdrawing the clamp without damage. I have video and photographic evidence of the entire removal procedure, as well as a video of the clamp's condition both before and after its removal, which show that the clamp was not damaged. The chain was not immobilising the vehicle so it was merely secured out of the way so that the vehicle could then be driven away. I attempted to return the clamp to Hatfield police station at roughly 23:30 but they had closed for the night, so I decided to take the clamp home to ensure it's safe return the next day.

 

I contacted Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd (hereby PCM) at 12:36 on 17/03/2010 to arrange for the clamp, padlock and chain to be collected from my house, but was told that PCM had no interest in having the clamp returned, and were only interested in charging me with theft of their property. I informed PCM that I would be handing the clamp to Hatfield police station for them to collect, and that the extra chain and padlock could be removed from my car at my home address. However, Hatfield police were not interested in receiving the clamp on the grounds that this was a civil dispute between PCM and myself. They also informed me that I was well within my rights to remove the clamp, and that PCM have no legal grounds for accusing me of theft as there is no proof that I had intended to keep the clamp indefinitely. I have a case reference number from the police which I will use as evidence of my intentions to return the clamp, should this go to court.

 

Since the vehicle is no longer on private property you have no legal right to immobilise it. I am aware that your padlock and chain are currently in my possession but I have every intention of returning them to you once they have been removed from my vehicle.

Collection Details

 

• The clamp may be collected from my university address (above) and I expect you to do so within one week of receipt of this letter. After that time I will be charging £15 per day to look after the clamp.

• The padlock and chain attached to my suspension can also be removed from the same address, and I expect you to do so within one week of receipt of this letter. After that time I will assume that you are not interested in having the padlock and chain returned, in which case I will have the padlock removed by a professional locksmith, and will be forwarding the bill on to PCM. In the eventuality that the locksmith is not able to remove the padlock I will be removing it by other means that may cause damage to the padlock or chain, and returning both to you in whatever condition they are removed from the car in.

• The padlock and chain must be collected at the same time as the clamp is returned. By arranging to collect either item you are agreeing to collect all items, regardless of whether this was discussed at the time of arranging collection. However, if the week's notice for collection of the padlock and chain has been exceeded, only the clamp is guaranteed to be returned undamaged.

 

Should you agree to these conditions I hope that we have a swift and trouble-free relationship until the items are returned and the matter is settled. If you do not agree and wish to take the matter to court, I will eagerly await your summons. In the event that you are unsuccessful I will be counter-suing for all costs listed above, and for compensation for the distress caused to myself throughout any court proceedings.

 

Yours sincerely

 

My name.

 

I'm going to have a lawyer look through it and make sure that everything is ok before sending it off. Hopefully it'll do the trick.

 

I'll be sending it recorded delivery too.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I would add that "without prejudice to my denial of liability the collection of the clamp and/or chain and/or padlock and any appurtenances thereof shall constitute a complete, absolute and irrevocable discharge of any and all alleged or actual liability I may have to you or any other party in relation to this matter".

[Mundane-o]

Wow! I think I understood that, just about!

 

That's exactly what I need though, I'm pretty good at putting my thoughts into writing but I really need to have every possible loophole covered. And the more the letter looks like that, the better.

[DBC]

From the Daily Mail 14 September 2009:-

 

Firm faces an Asbo for preying on tourists what the new law should say.

 

A private wheel-clamping firm faces becoming the first in Britain to be given an Asbo banning it from operating in towns where its staff are accused of 'extortion' against motorists.

Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd has become notorious for its predatory and merciless approach and for breaches of industry rules.

But Windsor and Maidenhead Council in Berkshire is determined to call a halt to its cash-grabbing tactics because it is giving the area a bad name with tourists.

This month it will debate whether the firm can be barred from the towns by serving it with an antisocial behaviour order - a measure originally designed to crack down on thugs and hooligans.

For years PCM, which patrols a number of private car parks, has been accused of using deception to trap hundreds of tourists and other hapless motorists. The company does not publish accounts but is thought to rake in hundreds of thousands of pounds a year.

Town hall sources told the Mail how PCM's staff stalk the Windsor Castle car park where tourists 'unwittingly overstay because signs are hard to understand or because zealous operatives clamp their vehicles if they are literally seconds over their allotted time'.

'We regard what this firm is doing as legalised extortion,' said Colin Rayner, lead member for highways and streetcare with the Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead Council.

'We are now of the belief that private clamping should be banned outright. The firm is giving Windsor and surrounding areas a bad name and we are hoping to put a stop to it.'

 

PCM is headed by managing director Ian Cordingley, 45, from Uxbridge, West London.

Town hall officials have said they also want to target David Blake, a business consultant who works for the firm and represents it on the industry body the British Parking Association, sitting on the board which oversees industry standards.

In January 73-year-old Mavis Maynard and her 77-year-old husband Brian fell foul of PCM when they parked outside a boarded-up office in Maidenhead for 23 minutes to visit the library.

They returned to find their car had been towed away by PCM and they faced demands for a staggering £375 - made up of a £200 removal fee, £130 to release the car, £40 for 'storage' and a £5 credit-card fee.

Mrs Maynard had three appeals to the BPA thrown out before the AA became involved in her case. Two months ago her £375 was finally returned, with a curt note from David Blake apologising for 'any inconvenience'.

She described the firm as the ' unacceptable face of clamping'.

Contacted by the Mail yesterday Mr Blake, who lives with his wife Carole in a £380,000 home in Marlow, Buckinghamshire, would not comment on the allegations against the firm, or the threat of an Asbo

[Mundane-o]

Nice find!

 

I've checked the bloke's license against the SIA register and something interesting has come up. The license is in the name of Kimberley Hendry, who I believe is the female officer who was present at the time, but hid in their van. Now, she may well have fitted the initial clamp as I wasn't there to witness it, but the male officer was the one who fitted the secondary padlock and chain to my suspension. Now surely this second "clamp" was fitted illegally as the officer didn't leave his name or license number on the release notice. Is that right?

 

0230012557668374 KIMBERLY HENDRY Vehicle Immobilisation Frontline 09/12/2010 Active 09/12/2009

[JimmySpangle]

Jeeez. You have too much time on your hands!

 

There was no second clamp. I could fit a chain to your suspension. no licence is required. It is plain and simple, criminal damage. I would cut the chain off and bet them round the fecking head with it. it would be worth 3 months inside to crack their thick skulls.

 

In the real world, cut the chain and bin it. Tell them to collect the clamp from you at home within 7 days by appointment. Invite the police around to prevent a breach of the peace.

 

End of story. Do not waste any time writing anything more than the following:

 

Dear XXXXXX

 

You have 7 days from today to make an appointment and collect yoru clamp from XXXXXXXXXXXX after which time it will be disposed of.

 

Yours.......

 

That is it! Send it recorded delivery. If they don't contact you to arrange collection then sell it for scrap. Or let me know. i will buy it and clamp them!

[sailor sam]

One big question which the OP hasn't answered. Has he checked with the LA to see if this is an adopted road or not? The road to me looks like part of the public highway with full lighting ect. Note the lamp post has an I.D. number on it and looks like a type used by an LA, not a private company. In any event, there is no adequate signage to make this clamping lawful. What you have done in my opinion is highly commendable.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[JimmySpangle]

One big question which the OP hasn't answered. Has he checked with the LA to see if this is an adopted road or not? The road to me looks like part of the public highway with full lighting ect. Note the lamp post has an I.D. number on it and looks like a type used by an LA, not a private company. In any event, there is no adequate signage to make this clamping lawful. What you have done in my opinion is highly commendable.

 

 

 

Exactly what I originally thought and why I suggested that it was NOT a private road at all. As previously said also, they would be in very serious trouble if it is as I believe a public road.