Taking RBS to court

[Billywhiz]

Thanks for replying S. I most definitely didn't have any other accounts with rbs. I did make an arrangement to repay them through ccs and, at the time the default was placed on my credit file I had not missed any payments.

 

Thanks very much for explaining about the rebate allowable.

 

I have got a copy of the default notice rbs sent me and copies of statements from cccs to prove my case

[Billywhiz]

Reply received to my SAR received yesterday;

 

"We acknowledge receipt of your recent letter requesting your personal data held with the bank and payment of the £10.00 fee.

 

We are in the process of dealing with your request. Any information that is required to be provided to you under Section 7 of the Data Protection Act will be forwarded to you at the above address.

 

In line with the 1998 Data Protection Act, we are allowed up to 40 days, from the date of the receipt of the request and payment to produce the information required. Once collated, this data will be forwarded directly to you.

 

Please be aware that it is not our practise to provide further copies of standard documents that you would have received as part of our normal course of business. This would include providing you with further copy statements.

 

However, if you do wish us to include copy statements, please advise us at your earliest convenience. Please also confirm the statement period you wish this to cover."

 

signed pp for Recovery Manager

 

 

Rather annoyed about this as it seems to me that they're trying to cover themselves for not sending me the things that they don't want me to see and one of my arguments with them is that they have not sent me things that they should have e.g. default notices and notices of assignment. I will post my reply to them later but in the meantime any suggestions as to what I should respond with to make them send everything, including statements for my router account, and to still sound reasonable, albeit through gritted teeth, would be welcomed.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Billywhiz
spelling error

[spark911]

Reply received to my SAR received yesterday;

 

"We acknowledge receipt of your recent letter requesting your personal data held with the bank and payment of the £10.00 fee.

 

We are in the process of dealing with your request. Any information that is required to be provided to you under Section 7 of the Data Protection Act will be forwarded to you at the above address.

 

In line with the 1998 Data Protection Act, we are allowed up to 40 days, from the date of the receipt of the request and payment to produce the information required. Once collated, this data will be forwarded directly to you.

 

Please be aware that it is not our practise to provide further copies of standard documents that you would have received as part of our normal course of business. This would include providing you with further copy statements.

 

However, if you do wish us to include copy statements, please advise us at your earliest convenience. Please also confirm the statement period you wish this to cover."

 

signed pp for Recovery Manager

 

 

Rather annoyed about this as it seems to me that they're trying to cover themselves for not sending me the things that they don't want me to see and one of my arguments with them is that they have not sent me things that they should have e.g. default notices and notices of assignment. I will post my reply to them later but in the meantime any suggestions as to what I should respond with to make them send everything, including statements for my router account, and to still sound reasonable, albeit through gritted teeth, would be welcomed.

 

I guess depending on the age of the account it could be a lot of paper for them to send to you, which is why it's more of an opt-in!

 

I think if you just ask for statements for all your accounts and list the sort code and account number if you know them all to ensure that they dont miss one out they will send them to you eventually

[Billywhiz]

Thanks for the comment Spark. It makes me feel supported in my endeavours. Here's my response to their letter. Any comments by anyone before I post it would be very welcome;

 

6th April 2010

Ref:

Dear ,

Thank you for your letter which I received on Saturday 3rd April. I take note that it is not your practise to send further copies of standard documents that I should have received in the normal course of business however, since I believe that I was not sent documents which should have been sent in the normal course of business, I would like copies of all documents which you believe have been sent to me regarding these accounts.

In order to be more specific about my requirements the following should help.

For Current Account XXXXX – I require statements from 19.05.2008 to present and copies of any correspondence pertaining to this account between my branch and the different departments of the bank and the Consumer Credit Counselling service.

For any other loan accounts I have held with you since November 1997, including but not limited to the account numbers below, I require statements, copies of the Consumer Credit Agreements including any Personal Protection Insurance Agreements, copies of the terms and conditions and points 1. to 11. in my original letter to you.

Unknown Account No. Opened in 1997 at branch and closed 21.06.2002

Loan Account XXXXXXX? Opened approx 22.07.2002 closed 24.02.2003

Loan Account XXXXXX Opened 20.03.2003 closed 26.08.2003

Loan Account XXXXX Opened 21.08.2003 to present.

RTR Account XXXXXXX from its opening to the present

There may be other loan account numbers pertaining to me. I would like all the information about any loan or PPI accounts held by the bank between Nov. 1998 and the present.

In particular, I am interested in learning why £4,762.90 which I paid to you through the Consumer Credit Counselling Service disappeared into RTR Account XXXXXX on 01.04.2008 rather than being paid into Account Number XXXXXX as was intended by me and agreed with you. For this reason I wish to see all correspondence, in any form between the bank and The Consumer Credit Counselling Service, Experian, Equifax, Call Credit, Apex, Bryan Carter Solicitors, Fredrickson International and Robinson Way. I would also like any records of any correspondence pertaining to me between the different departments of the bank including my branch and the underwriters of the payment protection insurance connected to the loan accounts.

I hope that this clarifies matters for you and I look forward to hearing from you regarding your compliance with my request within the allotted time.

Yours faithfully

XXXXXXXXX

I expect I shall have to wade through rather a lot of documents when they arrive. A box full I should think:-o

[Billywhiz]

Yesterday I received an e-mail from my personal Consumer Services Officer at Experian.

 

Thank you for your email which we received on 29 March 2010

 

RE: Date of default on Bank of Scotland loan (C1)

 

WHAT AM I DOING FOR YOU:

 

- I am contacting the company concerned for you. This is because I can not amend the information without their consent.

- I am adding our standard dispute statement to the entry on your report.

"THE CONSUMER HAS DISPUTED THE ACCURACY OF THIS ENTRY AND WE HAVE THEREFORE ASKED THE PROVIDER TO INVESTIGATE IT. GIVEN THAT THIS DATA IS DISPUTED, PLEASE TAKE CARE IF MAKING AN ASSESSMENT OF ANY KIND THAT MAY INCLUDE THIS DATA."

 

- This statement will show within the next seven days.

 

- I will let you know what they say as soon as they reply.

 

Kind Regards etc.

 

 

I'm going to email them back to ask how long the bank's response might take and to remind them that it's RBS they should.. be contacting and not BOS.

 

 

You know that lady who writes the poison pen letters in the Alan Bennett play played by Patricia Routledge? - That's me that is;)

[paulwlton]

Thanks for the comment Spark. It makes me feel supported in my endeavours. Here's my response to their letter. Any comments by anyone before I post it would be very welcome;

 

6th April 2010

Ref:

Dear ,

Thank you for your letter which I received on Saturday 3rd April. I take note that it is not your practise to send further copies of standard documents that I should have received in the normal course of business however, since I believe that I was not sent documents which should have been sent in the normal course of business, I would like copies of all documents which you believe have been sent to me regarding these accounts.

In order to be more specific about my requirements the following should help.

For Current Account XXXXX – I require statements from 19.05.2008 to present and copies of any correspondence pertaining to this account between my branch and the different departments of the bank and the Consumer Credit Counselling service.

For any other loan accounts I have held with you since November 1997, including but not limited to the account numbers below, I require statements, copies of the Consumer Credit Agreements including any Personal Protection Insurance Agreements, copies of the terms and conditions and points 1. to 11. in my original letter to you.

Unknown Account No. Opened in 1997 at branch and closed 21.06.2002

Loan Account XXXXXXX? Opened approx 22.07.2002 closed 24.02.2003

Loan Account XXXXXX Opened 20.03.2003 closed 26.08.2003

Loan Account XXXXX Opened 21.08.2003 to present.

RTR Account XXXXXXX from its opening to the present

There may be other loan account numbers pertaining to me. I would like all the information about any loan or PPI accounts held by the bank between Nov. 1998 and the present.

In particular, I am interested in learning why £4,762.90 which I paid to you through the Consumer Credit Counselling Service disappeared into RTR Account XXXXXX on 01.04.2008 rather than being paid into Account Number XXXXXX as was intended by me and agreed with you. For this reason I wish to see all correspondence, in any form between the bank and The Consumer Credit Counselling Service, Experian, Equifax, Call Credit, Apex, Bryan Carter Solicitors, Fredrickson International and Robinson Way. I would also like any records of any correspondence pertaining to me between the different departments of the bank including my branch and the underwriters of the payment protection insurance connected to the loan accounts.

I hope that this clarifies matters for you and I look forward to hearing from you regarding your compliance with my request within the allotted time.

Yours faithfully

XXXXXXXXX

I expect I shall have to wade through rather a lot of documents when they arrive. A box full I should think:-o

 

That'll put em on the back foot.

[Billywhiz]

Thanks Paul - tick tock

[Billywhiz]

Just received another letter from RBS in response to my cca request

 

"We return your letter, as attached, which we are unable to action.

 

Unfortunately we do not hold your signature on record, please can you take your passport or driving licence into your branch for them to forward to us at Credit Management Services.

 

Thank you for your assisstance in this matter. We look forward to hearing from you shortly."

 

 

Do they really expect me to give them my passport or driving licence so they can send them to Telford?

 

They have sent back my requests and postal orders. I suppose I could wait for the response to my DSAR request but I feel like making life difficult for them. I could go to my branch, sign my name, put score marks through the signature and them allow them to check whether the signature I give them at the bank matches the one on my passport and then allow them to note my passport number.

 

Why would they want a copy of my signature though? They are happy enough to write to me regarding the accounts without checking my signature.

[spark911]

Why would they want a copy of my signature though? They are happy enough to write to me regarding the accounts without checking my signature.

 

I guess they realise you're after a lot of information and it's a delay tactic and perhaps hoping you wont bother so they don't have to find all the docs!

 

See these links regarding similar issues

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/232052-capital-1-signature-fight.html

 

Also OFT guidlines are quoted here [2.8.J] on post #6 - however, I think that's more aimed at the scenario of bank contacting person demanding repayment, person saying "im not the guy you want" and bank says "prove you're not him", but you could argue it applies in the reverse too, that it's unfair to require you to provide certain information to prove you are X when they have previously (I think?) discussed matters with you

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/195673-egg-asking-proof-id.html

 

Perhaps try one more letter before visiting a branch

[Billywhiz]

yes, thanks Spark, I've seen the templates on that thread. I rather like diddy Dickies.

 

It occurs to me though that if they say they haven't got a copy of my signature (and I did sign the requests I sent to them with my usual signature, then they can't have copies of the original agreements. All collection activity has been stopped for the last 3 months. I think I might have them on the back foot here. I hope that the people who have been making my life miserable for the last six years are getting the same feeling of dread when they see letters from me as I have felt when I have seen letters from them.

[Billywhiz]

Here's the letter I intend to send back to them

 

Kendal Court

Ironmasters Way

Telford

9th April 2010

Ref: CCA Request for Loan Accounts XXXXXXXX

XXXXXX

XXXXXX

Dear Sir/Madam,

I refer to your letter to me dated 1st April 2010 in response to my cca requests and payments for true copies of the agreements of which I enclose a copy.

Could you please provide clarification of your response to my request. In particular, could you explain why you are “unable to action” my request and why you need me to provide you with my signature for your records.

I assume that you are in no doubt about my identity since you have communicated by post with me at this address for ten years by sending sensitive information and you have also shared information about me at this address with four Debt Collection Agencies and three Credit Reference Agencies.

Could you also explain to me why you wish me to give my branch of the bank my passport or driving licence “for them to forward to us at Credit Management Services.”. As you are no doubt aware, these documents are often used in identity fraud and I am loth to let them out of my possession, still less for them to be sent through the post.

Could you please confirm that you are unable to action my request because you do not have a “true” copy of the executed agreement.

Thank you for your assistance in this matter. I look forward to hearing from you shortly.

Yours faithfully

Any suggestions for improvement before I send it would be very much appreciated

[diddydicky]

dear sirs

 

I refer to your demand for my signature and proof of identity in the form of passport and/or driving licence before you will comply with my CCA a78 request

 

The contents of your letter are poppycock.

 

You are perfectly well aware of my identity and my address, having communicated sensitive information to me at this address for many years.

 

You may not, whilst you remain in default of your s78 obligations- enforce the alleged agreement.

 

The correspondence in this matter will be made available to any court dealing with this matter at a future date

 

Save for service, no further correspondence will be entered into with you until such time as you comply with your s78 obligations or alternatively advise me that you do not in fact have a properly executed and/or legally enforceable credit agreement.

 

Yours sincereley

 

XXX

[Billywhiz]

thanks dd

[Billywhiz]

Interesting. I've just checked my credit record with Experian. It's been updated again this week. Without me paying them anything they have reduced the amount outstanding by £5,500:D

 

I await a letter of explanation and will post it when it arrives.

[Billywhiz]

Well I suppose I should have expected it given their record of communicating with me (dire) - RBS have not seen fit to explain why they have changed the amount showing as owing on my credit report on Experian by £5,500. However I have received an email from Experian which I will type in full because there's an address in it that other caggers might find useful;

 

Dear XXX

 

Further to our recent correspondence, I have been contacted by RBS regarding the account with the start date 21.08.03, on your credit report. They have advised us that they are unable to amend/delete the entry in question at the current time.

 

RBS Group requested that you contact them directly regarding this matter. You may wish to include with your correspondence any documentation to support your comments.

 

The address to write to is as follows:

 

Royal Bank of Scotland.

Glasgow Retail Customer Service Centre,

Reconcilliations - Pod 3,

5th Floor, Tay House,

300 Bath Street,

Glasgow

G2 4RS

 

The following Notice of Dispute will remain on this entry for 28 days. It will then be removed, unless we receive further notification from you:

 

"THE CONSUMER HAS DISPUTED THE ACCURACY OF THIS ENTRY AND WE HAVE THEREFORE ASKED THE PROVIDER TO INVESTIGATE IT. GIVEN THAT THIS DATA IS DISPUTED, PLEASE TAKE CARE IF MAKING AN ASSESSMENT OF ANY KIND THAT MAY INCLUDE THIS DATA."

 

Experian is unaable to amend this information without the authorisation of the company in question.

 

Please be assured that should they send us any further instructions regarding this matter, we will act upon them accordingly.

 

Kind regards

 

Michelle L Shaw

Consumer Services Officer

Client Queries

 

Just to remind everyone, the amount that originally appeared as owing has been reduced by £5,500 since I sent in my query so I presume that RBS has instructed Experian to make that alteration. I do have a default notice that the bank sent me in Jan 2004 but the entry on my credit record gives the default date as May 2006.

 

I'm having a think about what my next move should be given that the bank has written to me telling me that they can't action my cca request for this account. Any comments would be appreciated.

[Billywhiz]

I have received a letter from rbs this morning. It doesn't explain why the amount owing on my credit file has been reduced but I can deduce it from the address the letter was sent from. PPI Customer Concerns Team, Regulatory Risk, 5th Floor, 1 Hardman Boulevard, Manchester, M3 3AQ. I think they have removed the PPI elements of the multiple loans that this alleged debt was made up of.

 

The letter is about the ongoing saga of my signature;

 

Dear Ms.

 

Subject Access Request with the Royal Bank of Scotland

 

The signature you supplied on your Letter of Authority does not correspond with the signature we have on file for this account. The reason for this is that the signature has two strikes through it, and I am unable to deduce if it was your intention to void your signature.

 

I have attached a copy of the letter you enclosed. Could you please confirm if this is indeed your signature, and if you intended to strike through it.

 

Thank you for your assistance in this matter. If you have any questions please contact me on 0161 etc and I will be happy to help.

 

 

 

I'm not sure whether this means that they have found a copy of my signature now since when I made my cca request they said they couldn't "action it" because they didn't have a copy of my signature on file.

 

 

I think I'll have some fun with this now. I'll send a nice friendly letter to the admin person who is concerned about my signature telling him that it is my signature and I did intend to score through it as an anti-tampering measure. I'll even offer to take my passport into my local branch so that they can see it but not copy it.

 

Then I'll send a copy of this letter to Telford and ask them, now that they've found a copy of my signature on file, if they would send me a copy of the cca. Let's see what turns up.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Billywhiz
typos

[patrickq1]

also ask for a copy of the signature they refer to,i would nt alert them of the change in signatures,i would be asking has the account been asigned to a new router account if so why,i would also remind them that seeing as they are happy to correspond to the address and name given then you cannot see any sense in them being negative with regards to your request but if they wish to persist in this negativity then you shall pass all information about their witholding data concerning you to the ICO and you shall ask the ICO to intervene...

[means2anend]

subbing!!!

[means2anend]

only failed to make the payments on the last one due to unexpected life event. i did tell them I wouldn't be able to make the payments and asked if they could let me have longer to pay - I was still working. They were less than helpful - they offered me another loan! I took out a parachute account and contacted cccs. The loan was defaulted and my payments through cccs started 3 months later. As you can imagine interest and charges were piled on during that period.

 

 

I thought there had to be at least 2 failed minimum payments AT THAT POINT (S:86 CCA 1974) before a properly legally prescribed default notice was to be sent

[means2anend]

Also BW when you read through your SAR's in relation to any credit cards make a note of when (the dates) they issued you with subsequent credit tokens (credit Cards) NOT the first 'cos they're also supposed to have provided you with the original agreements accompanied by a copy of the updated or subsequently amended terms BEFORE you received physical possession of the new card or at the time NOT AFTERWARDS...If that is the case then the account has always been in default and in dispute from that moment..you just NEVER KNEW IT..that will throw a massive spanner because it is something they cannot rectify.

 

This was stated in Carey v HSBC and is also Section 85 Consumer Credit Act 1974 ''Duty Upon Issue Of New Credit Tokens''

 

I am not saying that this will inevitably be the case...but check you SAR for each account meticulously....I have checked my friend's with BarclayCard and this IS the case....it's just another problem for them to consider as you are now beginning to equip yourself properly and are becoming a formidable enquirer.

 

m2ae

Edited April 18, 2010 by means2anend

[Billywhiz]

Hi m2ae, thanks for your reply but this is a case of multiple unsecured loans r ather than credit cards. I've got a feeling that it's statute barred too since I started making payments through cccs in Jan 2004 and due to some kind of c**k up between cccs and rbs, none of the payments I was making were paid into the loan account, they were all paid into my current account which ended up being 4,000+ in credit, this then diappeared into a router account which I have the number of. I also disputed the account from the moment rbs defaulted it in jan 2004

[paulwlton]

Hi m2ae, thanks for your reply but this is a case of multiple unsecured loans r ather than credit cards. I've got a feeling that it's statute barred too since I started making payments through cccs in Jan 2004 and due to some kind of c**k up between cccs and rbs, none of the payments I was making were paid into the loan account, they were all paid into my current account which ended up being 4,000+ in credit, this then diappeared into a router account which I have the number of. I also disputed the account from the moment rbs defaulted it in jan 2004

 

When is their 40 days up?

[Billywhiz]

The one sent to Telford is up on Mon 17th May, but they sent me that delaying letter asking for more details about what I wanted so I suppose I'll have to give them another week.

 

I did send (and pay for) another one to the Glasgow office the week before though - both were sent special delivery

[patrickq1]

i had a feeling this was router...i think paul they have made a massive c**k up on this account or should i say accounts...they have not assigned them to anything but router account ,so i think now Paul is best one to advise you on what and when to say or not to say and what precise questions that need to be asked on all of this ... is it a four figure numbered account..

[Billywhiz]

Hi Patrick, yes. Last Tuesday it was £12,332 according to Experian. Last Wednesday, after they had contacted rbs, it was £6,832. No one has explained why as yet. I've been trying to tell them for years that there's been a c**k up but would they listen?