Anyone taken PayPal to the Small Claims over witheld money?

[buzby]

eBay stopped being free years ago. Why not sell elsewhere?

[SOD'EM]

Fair comment. I just think it should be less for smaller less expensive items.

 

PS. £25 was the starting/reserve price.

 

They already took £1.10 from my Paypal account. I thought that was their commission, as the listing fee was only 10p.

[JimmySpangle]

Let me guess, you don't run a business?

 

Rent? rates? tax? I thought it was all mine!

 

Did you even spare a thought to read the T&C's?

 

They love people like you!

[SOD'EM]

It's nothing to do with the T's&C's Jimmy. I could have sold elsewhere, but would anyone have seen it. Maybe so, but not many. I can't even think of another auction site but would seriously consider switching if there was one with enough buyers and sellers.

 

Just to save me boring myself with the T's&C's, could you tell me what their commission is on every hundred pounds? I can work any sales commission in the future from that.

 

Cheers Big Ears.

 

 

SOD'EM

[JimmySpangle]

No I cannot because it edepends on the item category, your ststus with ebay, whether you area business or private seller, whether you list when they have any offer on.

 

All clearly on their site. Search for 'fees' and it will all come up.

 

Hope that helps, big nose.

[SOD'EM]

:lol:

 

Fair do's:D

[Last of the Mohicans]

Hmmm...

 

Since the service is limited to E-money, which does not qualify as a deposit or an investment service in the sense of the Law, you are not protected by the Luxembourg deposit guarantee schemes provided by the Association pour la Garantie des Dépôts Luxembourg (AGDL). PayPal enables you to make payments to and accept payments from third parties. PayPal is an independent contractor for all purposes. PayPal does not have control of nor assumes the liability or legality for the products or services that are paid for with our Service. We do not guarantee the identity of any User or ensure that a buyer or a seller will complete a transaction.

 

Underlining for emphasis is mine.

 

On what basis does Paypal then withold funds and fundamentally alter the contract between the seller and buyer?

[JimmySpangle]

Because under scetion 143a (b) paragraph IV subsection 243a clause 2 they can 'do what they fecking well please and bollox to all customers.

 

OK, the rule isn't actually there but effictively that is what it is.

[hightail]

On what basis does Paypal then withold funds and fundamentally alter the contract between the seller and buyer?

 

Presumably on the basis that they offer greater protection for ebay sales than they do for other transactions. Nobody would buy a high value item on ebay from a new seller without this protection. In return for providing ebayers with the confidence to trade with newbies they put certain safeguards in place. Their ball, their game, their rules.

[perplexity]

On what basis does Paypal then withold funds and fundamentally alter the contract between the seller and buyer?

 

The fundamental alteration is based upon a figment of your own imagination, presumably.

 

In the mean time, what actually happens is that Paypal upholds the terms of the Paypal User Agreement, as agreed by every member, while the contract between a buyer and a seller is absolutely unaffected.

 

Whatever happens with a payment made to Paypal, the buyer or the seller owns the right to enforce the contract of sale. If Paypal refunds a payment the seller could sue the buyer none the less, or if Paypal refuse a refund the buyer could sue the seller none the less, and may well be better off to do so anyway because the rights of a consumer, granted by law, extend a good deal further than what is rumoured to be the usual practice of Paypal.

 

[Last of the Mohicans]

You know what? I used to *really* respect CAG as a place where people could come and discuss ways to protect consumer rights. Where people were willing to discuss and investigate openly and without rancour find legal ways around dodgy malpractices.

Yeah, lots of blanks were fired in the process, but ideas were exchanged and ways found to negate and nulify illegal practices.

Ask any bank how they feel about CAG.

Ask any DCA how they feel about CAG.

 

But that doesnt seem to be the case anymore. Now it seems this place is just shill city.

 

Hope you guys are all happy, and PayPal is paying you enough to screw up Consumer Action Group for them.

[JimmySpangle]

And who exactly is that aimed at?

 

If you want the bottom line, Paypal are doing what you agreed they could do. I hate paypal with a passion and would never use them under any circumstanecs and cirtainly do not work for or support them in any way.

 

But your argument must be based on facts. the fact is you signed up and thus agreed that they can do this. No point throwing toys out the pram if you don't like the truth.

[Last of the Mohicans]

And who exactly is that aimed at?

 

If you want the bottom line, Paypal are doing what you agreed they could do. I hate paypal with a passion and would never use them under any circumstanecs and cirtainly do not work for or support them in any way.

 

But your argument must be based on facts. the fact is you signed up and thus agreed that they can do this. No point throwing toys out the pram if you don't like the truth.

 

 

If the cap fits, wear it matey. Just be cause a company (eBay) forces you to use another company (PayPal) doesnt constitute "Oh I signed this, so tough on me."

As members of something called Consumer Action Group, where we percieve a problem with what a company is doing, our aim is to redress that if possible, or to discover ways in which consumers (forced consumers in this case) can at worst negate the effects of that companies dodgy practices, or at best put a stop to them.

You say you "hate PayPal with a passion? Sorry, I'm missing your passionate wish to put any kind of shot across their bows - rather I see your pasionate wish to just bite down harder each time they shaft us again, just because... well, you signed up.

In other areas of CAG, you probably signed a loan agreement - that isnt going to stop you using the law to tell a DCA to go FT when they come after you without a copy of the agreement, or when they're terms and conditions are shown correctly, or they're out of statute, or they told a porky on the POC.

In short, like I said - if the cap fits wear it.

If you arent interested in finding ways to kick PayPal in the nuts, thats fine with me, but take your smirky "Well, you signed up..." shpiel off to your own thread - I can suggest a title if you're stuck for ideas - and maybe some others will feel more inclined to chuck some POSITIVE ideas around, which in my experience has been the more normal behaviour on CAG.

 

Have a honey of a day.

[perplexity]

The convincing way to kick Paypal in the nuts is to refuse to use it.

 

On ebay.de the vast majority of sellers who sell to the home market (not abroad) continue to accept payments by bank transfer, as they always did, because they think it daft to pay an extra fee to Paypal, and the buyer are content with this, as they always were, because it works.

 

Therefore, because the sellers have the sense to think it through as far as that, Paypal is not yet forced on the German site for fear of an exodus of sellers were ebay so reckless.

 

In the UK the punters are that much more like dogs sat on thistles, somehow expecting somebody to heed their howling but without the sense to shift their rear ends from the cause of the pain.

 

[Last of the Mohicans]

The convincing way to kick Paypal in the nuts is to refuse to use it.

 

On ebay.de the vast majority of sellers who sell to the home market (not abroad) continue to accept payments by bank transfer, as they always did, because they think it daft to pay an extra fee to Paypal, and the buyer are content with this, as they always were, because it works.

 

Therefore, because the sellers have the sense to think it through as far as that, Paypal is not yet forced on the German site for fear of an exodus of sellers were ebay so reckless.

 

In the UK the punters are that much more like dogs sat on thistles, somehow expecting somebody to heed their howling but without the sense to shift their rear ends from the cause of the pain.

 

 

Are you aware of how you actually don't use Paypal in the UK though? By which I mean, not are you aware we must use it, I know you are - but in terms of fine details? Like we are told by eBay "You MUST offer PayPal" - and that seems to transmit as "You must accept payment by PayPal if the buyer offers it." Can they make you accept Paypal legally? I would have thought not?

I'm contemplating putting on a couple of items on the basis of "If you'll be paying cash on collection, I will discount your winning bid by 10%" That seems entirely sensible to me, since PayPal will a) screw me around and b) screw a load of fees out of me anyway.

 

Question is, do I fall foul of some deliberately obscure eBay/PayPal cartel rule by doing that?

 

For the record my feedback is now an exemplary 100% now over 14 items, 9 sold, and I'm always upfront with my buyers and bidders who contact me during auctions as to who they are actually dealing with via my bands MySpace page - they know they're not dealing with some pikey out to tuck them up.

[perplexity]

They not only tell the UK sellers that they must offer Paypal, ebay items fail to appear on ebay.co.uk if listed on another site where the sellers are not obliged to offer Paypal and the sellers fail to.

 

None the less, a good proportion of German sellers would continue to prefer to sell to Germany only, rather than be bothered with any of that.

 

Were a competitor to complain about the virtual monopoly I dare say that a court of law would be no more keen on it than the German sellers, but in the mean time it is much more fun to watch eBay continue to shoot itself in the foot. If you read the reports to shareholders you will find that eBay is not so much more keen on Paypal than anybody else is, because it is badly managed. Paypal struggles to cope on an international basis if only because the regulation of money is that much more strict in some parts of the World. None the less, eBay is stuck with it, there being no viable opportunity to offload Paypal now that the damage is done, in terms of the value of ebay shares over the past five years.

 

[hightail]

Can they make you accept Paypal legally?

 

As has been pointed out they tend to cave if challenged but in the grand scheme of things this is worth it to them. Sellers don't get their money that much faster if they fight it anyway. It is heartbreaking to hear of people needing to sell their possessions in order to pay bills and then finding they won't get the money for ages. I suppose the principle is not that much different to an auction house insisting on payment by cash and only ever paying out by cheque, the clearance time is different but the payout is still not instant for the seller.

 

Selling on ebay is not simple and isn't problem free, whatever their advertising says.