Opinion please vs Welcome

[grantyblade]

HI Everyone,

 

Been reading all the threads re. Welcome for weeks now and becoming more and more convinced I need to get my paperwork checked out, thanks to you all. I'm already in the process of a number of issues with them, again thanks to the great insights of the CAGGERs on here. So quick history/breakdown for you:- (I'll try and keep it concise!)

 

1. Agreement taken out 31/10/06

2. Payments upto date until being made redundant 11/08

3. Came to agreement with them to basically pay every other month. Presumed what they had agreed wouldn't therefore mean I was missing payments, just that they would temporarily re-negotiate.

4. As of August 09 began to pay monthly the full amount.

5. This is where it gets a little more interesting - honest!

6. Made my regular payment for month end Nov 09. Next payment therefore not due til end Dec 09. Instead they send Notice of Default on 24th Dec. Why?? (letter attached default1 & 2)

7. I spoke to them and proceeded to make my regular payment end Dec 09.

8. Obviously that got me a little p*ssed off that they sent such a letter. Then on 21st Jan 10 they sent 'another' letter amking sure I was going to pay end of Jan 10 as if nothing had happened re. the Notice of Default.

9. 4th Feb 10 I sent them many letters

a) voluntary termination

b) general complaint

c) harrasment letter

10. Funnily enough on the 8th Feb I recieved a letter from them saying that my account had now been terminated.

11. I re sent the above letters detailing a further complaint plus SAR report

12. Recieved letter 1/3/10 again saying I can only voluntary surrender.

 

Basically after all that I would like to know if my credit agreement is correct and or if their notice of default was lawful and subsequent termination. I am fully aware of my liability (at the moment) for my arrears, I just really need to get rid of this car and it's monthly payments. I know they need a court order to take car, I just don't want to be left liable for the full balance.

 

Many files attached for evidence.

 

:???:Thanks in advance for your help.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[grantyblade]

OOOPPPSSS!!

 

Sorry didn't realise the attchments were going to come out like that. Nice long read anyway?

 

Cheers!

[beyondhope]

I have had all those letters bar the one regarding VT

 

*termination notice doesnt mean anything as it cant be used in court as it says without prejudice

*default notice is defective as it doesnt give a numerical date just says within 14 days, this doesnt allow the time they are supposed to allow you

 

sorry cant help on figures but im sure someone will be along to have a look at those

[grantyblade]

Sounds great so far.

 

Just trying to work out where I might stand by my VT to them. If anymore things can be found out about the agreement in terms of it possibly being un-enforceable - where would I stand and what could I do if anything?

 

Thanks

[grantyblade]

Can anybody else help any further yet?

 

Many Many Thanks in advance

[Et Contra Pacem Regis]

I would say that the default notice is defective in two important ways:

 

1. It says "within 14 days". The lay person would interpret that as 14 days from the date of the letter, however, section 88 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 says that 14 days must be allowed from the date of service. Deemed service by first class post is 2 days, so that the default notice allows only 12 days for remedy.

 

2. Although the default notice has a statement about your termination right, they've left out how much you would have to pay on termination.

 

For those reasons you might legitimately argue that notice is invalid and that you are entitled to VT. If you wish to make the point to Welcome, you could write a letter, setting out why the DN is invalid, pointing out that a without prejudice termination letter is ineffective, that you are voluntarily terminating the agreement.

 

If they refuse to accept this, write to them making a formal compliant. If they still refuse, or don't reply within 8 weeks, you can take them to the FOS.

[grantyblade]

Thats great thanks, exactly the kind of thing I was hoping.

 

On a further note I have just recieved my SAR from them this morning and firstly I belive it is incomplete - more to follow when I've finished work this evening. Secondly, included in all my paperwork was a credit form for another customer which detailed their account number with Welcome, their name, address and bank account details and a few account details regarding welcome! What do you think I should do?

 

Thanks

[Et Contra Pacem Regis]

Regarding the other customer's information, I would write to the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) about it. It is extremely bad pracitce for Welcome to be accidentally disclosing other people's details, not that this would be the first time.

If it's got the customer's address, I'd write to them explaining what happened, and enclosing the documents and a copy of your letter to the ICO. It's their data, and they might want to make their own complaint, to welcome or the ICO.

[grantyblade]

Again, great thanks, I shall draft a letter later this evening.

 

Is there anybody out there who doesn't mind if they have the time to look at the figures on my credit agreement. I believe there are a few of you out there with these 'special calculators'! I would be so grateful if anybody has the time to do this. I am more than willing to offer donations.

 

Again Thanks

[grantyblade]

Hey you welscum specialists!

 

Would love any insight into my agreemnets you may have. Obviously now it's looking great in terms of me being able to VT cos of thier un enforceable termination and notice of default, plus also the fact they've sent somebody elses personal info to me as part of my SAR. Will I be able to get the default listing off my credit files?

[grantyblade]

Dear Post and Ozzy,

 

Sorry for name dropping but it looks like you fantastic people are the ones with a head for figures! Any chance you could have a scoot over mine. Be so much appreciated. Just want to make sure APR etc is correct. As a few other things seem to be going my way re. the in effective DN and welcome sending me someone elses personal details. God! I wonder if somebody has been sent one of my pages with my details on??

[postggj]

Give Me Half An Hour

 

Third One Today

[postggj]

Do You Have The Sales Invoice From The Garage

 

Spotted A Dynamite Straight Away

[postggj]

NICE CLEAR UPLOAD EVEN I CAN READ, SO

 

YOU HAVE A LOAN OF £7642 OVER 48 MONTHS (4 YEARS) @ 19.8% APR

 

YOU ALSO HAD A £1000 CHARGE TO CHANGE THE AGREEMENT (OUCH)

 

is that legal, were you offered an agreement to modify the first over a longer period

 

ill do this in two parts and leave out the £1000 refinance till last

so on £7642

 

monthly payment £225.29

interest £3171.98

total payable £10,813.98

 

insurance

 

gap (shortfall) £350

 

monthly repayment £10.32

interest £145.28

total payable £495,28

 

check the figures against the statement of price posted up.

i rounded the figures up to 20 % not 19.8 % listed and welcomes figures are still higher than mine

 

now the £1000 fee to refinance

 

( IME CHECKING OUT THE LEGALITY OF THIS BEING A CHARGE FOR CREDIT)

 

MONTHLY PAYMENT £29.48

INTEREST £415.07 WELCOME HAVE IT AT £416

TOTAL PAYABLE £1415.07

 

NO OPTION OR ACCEPTANCE FEE SO WE HAVE THE FINAL FIGURES

 

AMOUNT OF LOAN £7642

REFINANCE £1000

INSURANCE £350

INTEREST ON £7642 ----- £3171.98

INTEERST ON REFINANCE £1000-----£415.07

 

TOTAL PAYABLE £12579.05

DEVIDE BY 48 GIVES A MONTHLY REPAYMENT OF £262.06 ----- WELCOMES IS £265.27

 

REMEMBER

 

I ROUNDED MY INTEREST UP TO 20% NOT THE 19.8 % QUOTED

 

AND WELCOMES FIGURES ARE STILL HIGHER THAN MINE

 

SEEMS ITS UNDISCLOSED COMMISSION PAYMENTS AGAIN

 

ILL LET OZZY GO OVER MY FIGURES BUT YOU HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH FOR AN OFFICIAL DISPUTE

 

GOOD OLD WELCOME

 

[ozzywizard]

Will check through tonight, at work now so im restricted on time and concentration. . .

 

oh on another note that 1000 charge for refinance is not lawfull and will need to be claimed back and no way legal to charge as credit so Post this would make it unenforceable right ?

Edited March 7, 2010 by ozzywizard
lollll removed oxxy cause you did hehehe.

[postggj]

Thats My Understanding

 

The £1000 Refinance Charge Is A Charge For Credit So Is Unlawful Having Interest Charged Against It, Double Checking

 

Mind You, The Whole £1000 Charge On Its Own Is Highly Suspect

 

It Should Be An Agreement To Modify The First

 

Not A Whole New Agreement

[grantyblade]

At work myself so not much time to go over my paperwork but will do v soon. With regards the £1000, that was as far as I remeber re-financing (negative equity) cos I traded in my old car which was financed thru welcome.

 

I'll dig out the sales invoice too. Am sure i've got it.

 

Thanks

[postggj]

If You Traded In Your Old Car

 

Did You Get Interest And Insurance Rebate To Go Onto The Second Agreement

[grantyblade]

Hi Guys,

 

sorry v busy at work til late last night and going to be bombarded today too til the evening so it'll be difficult to upload any more forms til then.

 

I do however have my ' Used Vehicle Invoice' infront of me, figures on are as follows:-

 

Vehicle price - £8292.00

 

Gross Amount £8292.00

 

Less Part Exchange amount £5521.55

 

Net amount due £2770.45

 

Add outstanding HP £ 5521.55

 

Less Deposit £650.00

 

Amount due from finance Co. £7642.00

 

Amount due from customer £ blank

 

On a from from my SAR which is headed WCF ONLY - Credit Sale Product - Negative Equity Calculator

 

Figures are:-

 

TO be on the Subject 2

(Financier Settlement Amount) =

[grantyblade]

OOps the rest of the post should read

 

TO be on the Subject 2

(Financier Settlement Amount) = £7125.00

 

G.G. Trade Value £2570.00

 

75% = £1927.50

 

Min Disposal Cost = £150.00

 

Net Trade Value = £1777.50

 

NEGATIVE EQUITY AMOUNT £5347.70

 

MAXIMUM NEGATIVE EQUITY = £1000

 

MINIMUM SPREAD IN VEHICLE = £5197.70

 

 

THEN ON ANOTHER SHEET - A SETTLEMENT QUOTATION PRINT

 

says:-

 

O/S balance 7890.04 (Age 32 of 48 months)

Arrears 2180.25

 

Settlements

Rebate Penalty net payable inc arrears

 

Renewal £764.84 £0.00 £7125.20

 

 

Does that mean a blooooody thing to anyone??

 

Oh and another good eye opening thing was there commissions they earned on this deal which I shall upload later:-

 

Commissions -

 

Finance £366.62

Shortfall extra £114.91

MBI+ £0.00

Emergency Recovery £0.00

PPI £0.00

Document fee £100.00 !!!!

 

Total Commission £581.73

 

Nice little earner.

 

Cheers Everyone

[Et Contra Pacem Regis]

Have to disagree with Post on the maths:

The interest rate stated is 10.4%. That's a "flat" rate (can tell because it's about half the APR). You calculate flat rate interest the same way you calculated 8% statutory interest for reclaiming charges or PPI. So, in this case:

£8,992.00 * (10.4%/12) * 48 = £3,740.67, plus £8,892 gives TAP of £12,732.67, divided by 48 gives £265.26.

I think the interest calculation is rate, based on the interest rate rather than the APR. If you accept Welcome's amount of credit and regular payments as correct then the APR is 19.8%.

 

The sale documents make less sense. They're saying that the price of the new car is £8,292, but that the part exchange value of the old car is 5521.55, leaving 2770.45 as credit for the car, but then adding 5521.55 again for "outsanding HP" presumably on the old car (i.e. it's entire value)

 

The WCF only document seems to give the car a different, lower trade value. They then work out what their actual likely return on the trade value you would (75% less minimum costs). Rather surprisingly they seem to cap the amount of negative equity at £1000 (they seem to think negative equity is about £5500).

 

That £1000 is what then appears as "refinancing". Welcome would presumably say that this £1000 is in fact refinancing of the HP agreement on the previous car, I can't see anything on the face of the agreement to suggest that its a charge for credit rather than credit.

[grantyblade]

Hey,

 

1.Yeah I think the £1000 is just the balance left over from the previous car and at the time I think I got a pretty good deal? Cos they basically wiped off any arrrears to leave £1000 outstanding, I gave them the car back after just over 2 years on VT, got a new car and I'm pretty sure that ain't bad.

 

2.So the other figures on my CCA look fine? Should the total amount of credit include the deposit paid? If I paid £650 deposit can they still add this to the amount that needs interest charging to it?

 

3. I'm going to look at re claiming my PPI from my 1st car loan that started end )$ so I know I have to be quick, How will I work out how much to reclaim if I ended up VT'ing the car at stage 32 out of 48 months with arrears on account or should I leave them to work out the figures?

 

4. Is is only PPI that can be reclaimed? Wass wondering about the healthcare stuff etc... fortunately I learnt in time for taking my 2nd agreement out! Would be nice though to see if I could reclaim from the first!

 

Thanks people

[ozzywizard]

Hiya Grant,

 

Regarding your question 3 and 4,

 

my 1st car loan that started end )$

 

Dont understand this bit lol.

 

Leave them to work out the figures and get letter sent, once they reply with a positive offer we will check it includes full premium minus VT paid and interest and stat interest. When ive got more time I will have a look at what a good estimation is for this but will need dates of your payments and how much paid (32) , also how much initial PPI premium was also APR and loan term (48) and VT stage (32) .

 

Yes you also need to add healthcare if you feel this was missold also, what are your reasons for thinking it was missold.

[wannabedebtfreesoon]

Hello, just wanted to offer my opinion

 

You say you wanted to be rid of the car and the monthly payments and you've got arrears, default and missed payments??

 

From what you've said about how long you paid for I take it you've paid more than a third. At the minute Welcome are completely flounting the law and repossessing at every possible opportunity, I suspect that's why you've received the untimely default and termination nonsense.

 

If they've already messed up your credit file then you have very little to lose by stopping paying. If it was me I would just stopped paying, ignore them and let them unlawfully repossess, (which is quite likely they will do!), then take them to court for unlawful repossession.

 

BUT THAT IS PURELY WHAT I WOULD DO!!!!!

 

As it stands they have terminated your account therefore an obligation to make monthly payments no longer exists, however if you continue making payments you are, in effect, not accepting the termination and the agreement remains live.

 

Things we know:-

 

A termination on the back of an ineffective Default means you are legally only liable for the arrears stated on the DN

 

They need a court order to repossess your car

 

It's highly unlikely they will take you to court, (but not impossible!)

 

You have an unenforceable credit agreement, (as in a very good defence should they take you to court!)

 

Your credit file is already trashed, any more entries aren't going to make it any worse than it already is.

 

 

Please, please don't take my opinion as gospel. I just wanted to offer my thoughts on what I would do were I in your situation. There are of course many other factors to consider i.e. if you could deal with the immense amount of harassment they will undoubtedly pile upon you, how you would manage if your car was repossessed and you were left without a car for a length of time, the emotional stress you may feel as a result, your feelings about your possible moral obligations to paying them, if you would be prepared to take them to court for unlawful repossession should it get that far and if you have the money to file a claim.

 

Just an aside- if it did get that far you would be liable for all your payments returned including the cost of the car.

 

Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion but it is your life and only you know what is right for you; personally I just hate this company with a vengeance for the grief and torment they cause so many people.

[grantyblade]

To wannabedebtfreesoon,

 

I've paid over half on this account so I know they have to get court order etc.. they have sent the DN which I feel and from the opinions on here is unlawful and unenforceable and untimely. I then sent a VT to which they replied with their own TN saying I couldn't VT. Not bothered about keeping car and will address new car as soon as this one goes. I won't pay them anymore money. Just ensuring that they will accept my VT then trying to fight if either I can reduce my arrears because of un enforceable Credit agreement or dissecting my SAR for hidden charges etc.. to reclaim money. They can have the damn car - (sorry to say it to the car cos it's been fab!) lol.

 

So now it's do i put account into dispute? Hope they unlawfully repossess car - fun!? or fight to return the car asap and then negotiate the arrears?

 

Thanks