business rates demand

[T25]

Not sure if this is the right place ,but.....

Last week bailiffs called at my shop to seize goods and close the doors due to unpaid business rates.I stated that I had registered to pay but had received no correspondance from the council as far as bills and payment books were concerned.The bailiff said that the council had sent 4 letters to me,and the bailiff had sent 2.I had received nothing.Long story short,I had 5 days to pay the full amount,plus £600 costs.This I did.I also contacted the business rates section of the council for all copies of any correspondance we had had,to be sent to my home address.This they did.From these letters I have found that the rates team had failed to include the name of the shop in the address,despite the fact that the shop had changed hands and was now under new ownership,and despite the fact that the name of the shop had been included in the previous owners mail.They also failed to include the names of the other 2 partners.As we share the building with 3 flats,all having the same street number,the postman had been putting anything not addressed specifically to the shop into the letter box for the flats.This was the same for the bailiffs letters.The flats have a high turnover of tennants,and it appears that one of the girls was putting anything unknown straight back in the postbox,marked 'not here'.

I have also found out that I am not entitled to small business rates relief becuase I already claim relief on a storage unit in the next borough.I will now be disposing of this so that I can get relief on the shop.Unfortunately,as I have only now found this out,I cannot get the reduction for the past year.Total liability is just over £2000,costs amount to £600+

My question is; where do I stand with regard to claiming any of this money back?

Edited March 3, 2010 by T25
additional information

[High Court Enforcer]

I'd say your stuffed unfortunately. The letters from the council and bailiff are deemed served when posted by Royal Mail.

 

You really should have contacted the council rather than wait for them to contact you. You must have been aware that you'd owe business rates?

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[ploddertom]

I have also found out that I am not entitled to small business rates relief becuase I already claim relief on a storage unit in the next borough.I will now be disposing of this so that I can get relief on the shop.Unfortunately,as I have only now found this out,I cannot get the reduction for the past year.Total liability is just over £2000,costs amount to £600+

My question is; where do I stand with regard to claiming any of this money back?

 

Small Business Rate Relief is on an accumulator dependent on what business you have, how many of same there are in the area and how much total rent you pay - each authority has a different take on interpretation and sometimes need to be reminded of the rules.

 

From what I see it would appear you have been well screwed over charges. Broadly NNDR costs are the same as for domestic Council Tax, however it is sometimes harder to keep Bailiffs out as the majority of businesses - particularly shops - have an open door policy.

 

You should contact the Council and find out how much the original Liability Order was for. Next contact the Bailiff's and find out what you have been charged - send this by email and post - sample below adapt for your own needs.

 

 

 

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account. Can you please provide me with a Statement of my account including Computer Screenshot. This is not a Subject access request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. I also require the name of the attending Bailiff and the name of the Court he was Certificated at. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

 

What if any paperwork have you been left? How many visits did they make? There is an assumption because it is for NNDR that normal rules of engagement do not apply - they do. When you get some replies post back and we'll see what we can do.

 

PT

[tomtubby]

Not sure if this is the right place ,but.....

Last week bailiffs called at my shop to seize goods and close the doors due to unpaid business rates.I stated that I had registered to pay but had received no correspondance from the council as far as bills and payment books were concerned.The bailiff said that the council had sent 4 letters to me,and the bailiff had sent 2.I had received nothing.Long story short,I had 5 days to pay the full amount,plus £600 costs.This I did.I also contacted the business rates section of the council for all copies of any correspondance we had had,to be sent to my home address.This they did.From these letters I have found that the rates team had failed to include the name of the shop in the address,despite the fact that the shop had changed hands and was now under new ownership,and despite the fact that the name of the shop had been included in the previous owners mail.They also failed to include the names of the other 2 partners.As we share the building with 3 flats,all having the same street number,the postman had been putting anything not addressed specifically to the shop into the letter box for the flats.This was the same for the bailiffs letters.The flats have a high turnover of tennants,and it appears that one of the girls was putting anything unknown straight back in the postbox,marked 'not here'.

I have also found out that I am not entitled to small business rates relief becuase I already claim relief on a storage unit in the next borough.I will now be disposing of this so that I can get relief on the shop.Unfortunately,as I have only now found this out,I cannot get the reduction for the past year.Total liability is just over £2000,costs amount to £600+

My question is; where do I stand with regard to claiming any of this money back?

 

Small business rate relief is only available on one property as you have now discovered.

 

However, you have said that bailiffs charged you £600. This is an large amount of bailiff fees and should be questioned.

 

Did bailiffs gain entry into the property?

 

Did they levy upon goods?

 

Which company was this?

[T25]

They did gain entry.I was not there at the time.They threatened to close the business and seize the stock,but after speaking to them over the phone,they agreed to give me 5 days to pay.The 600+ costs was not all bailiffs fees.It also included court costs.

What I don't understand is that I contacted the council by email to register for business rates shortly after taking over the premises.They then emailed me back to request a fax of the contract.This I provided.They then sent out numerous wrongly addressed letters,and eventually the bailiffs,despite having my initial means of contact.

[ploddertom]

They did gain entry.I was not there at the time.They threatened to close the business and seize the stock,but after speaking to them over the phone,they agreed to give me 5 days to pay.The 600+ costs was not all bailiffs fees.It also included court costs.

What I don't understand is that I contacted the council by email to register for business rates shortly after taking over the premises.They then emailed me back to request a fax of the contract.This I provided.They then sent out numerous wrongly addressed letters,and eventually the bailiffs,despite having my initial means of contact.

 

The Liability Order should have included Court costs etc from the Council, here are the charges bailiffs are allowed for Council Tax, NNDR is similar:

 

Council Tax

The Bailiff visits the premises but does not gain entry:

1st visit - £24.50

2nd visit - £18.00

The Bailiff gains entry, lists and takes 'possession' of the goods (the goods are not necessarily removed).

 

Debt less than £100 - £24.50

Where the debt is over £100 it is calculated thus: 22.5% on the first £100 of the sum due, 4% on the next £400, 2.5% on the next 1,500, 1% on the next £8000 and 0.25% on any additional sum.

The bailiff makes one attendance with a vehicle and intends to remove goods (where the bailiff has previously gained entry, listed, taken 'possession' but not removed the goods): reasonable costs and fees.

The bailiff removes and stores goods reasonable costs and fees.

The bailiff takes walking possession of the goods (the debtor has signed a walking possession agreement) - £12.00.

 

Even working on the percentages alone the most you should be charged for a levey on £2k is £76 + WPA £12 + Visit fees possibly. Comes to a lot less than £600 even if there are a couple of others included.

 

You really must find out what you were charged.

 

PT

[danboy381]

small business relief is available on more than 1 property if they are owned by different companies. I.E You have 2 Limited co's, one owns one shop and one owns the other. easiest way to do it and above board.

 

Lesson learnt that a lot of councils are inept at managing anything so never rely or assume anything when dealing with them

 

BTW - threatening to close the business? idiots. thats really going to help the cause isn't it.

Edited March 4, 2010 by danboy381

[Skankedbythebank]

T25

 

Have you actually PAID for the goods they levied on / seized ?

 

If they were on account from a supplier you don't own them! it's in the T&C's of your trade account. You can get the levy, and hence ALL the associated fees canceled.

 

 

The council however could apply for bankruptcy if the NDR debt is more than £700! so get an arrangement with them promptly.

 

It also sounds like your Council are a bunch of numpties. You don't need a contract / lease to pay or be liable for NDR, merely the occupier of the building.

 

danboy381 is spot on, we legally separated our business activities and qualified for the 50% reduction on both premises.

 

 

 

BTW - The reason they tell lies like "we will close your shop" (no they can't!) is because they have about as much power as a mediocre Pokemon card against people who know what they are doing.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Skankedbythebank

[danboy381]

Indeed, Skanked, on one large site we cut the rates payable from 4,800 p.m in more than half to 1,850 - the site was even miss measured by the Valuation office, which we understand happens alot.

[ploddertom]

Indeed, Skanked, on one large site we cut the rates payable from 4,800 p.m in more than half to 1,850 - the site was even miss measured by the Valuation office, which we understand happens alot.

 

Each business I have had I've always challenged the rating valuation. One of them dated back to 1963 and various owners of the business in between were paying more than double what we pay now because they had never queried it. I did ask if I could claim back 40+ years overpayments but it wasn't to be.

 

PT

[Skankedbythebank]

Re valuation often reduces the bill, but will not help with any current liability order. Be aware that if improvements have been made since the last valuation it could go up!

 

Someone i know didn't realize that the mezzanine floor was added to his warehouse until AFTER the last valuation. He got stung for an extra 25%+ when he appealed the valuation!!!!!

 

Yep, that's right, they bill you annually for improving or adding to your landlords building. Now that's the kind of genius policy making that will stimulate business growth and get us out of this recession.

 

Incorporating a new company as tenant will force the council to generate a revised bill for you and a separate one for the new entity

That can buy you a week or so while they sort it out.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Skankedbythebank

[T25]

So,I have sent off the letter to the Bailiffs requesting the information outlined above.From what I can work out from the councils correspondance,total bailiffs charges amount to about £400.

What do I do to get my money back,once the requested information comes back from the bailiffs?

[ploddertom]

What do I do to get my money back,once the requested information comes back from the bailiffs?

 

Walk before you run, wait and see what comes back first. Don't expect an instant response and also expect them to be evasive. Your next course of action will depend on their response.

 

PT

[tomtubby]

So,I have sent off the letter to the Bailiffs requesting the information outlined above.From what I can work out from the councils correspondance,total bailiffs charges amount to about £400.

What do I do to get my money back,once the requested information comes back from the bailiffs?

 

UNLESS the bailiff had levied upon goods, he can charge just £24.50 for "attending to levy (where no levy was made). Even if a levy had been made, the bailiff would only have been able to charge a levy fee and this would have been approx £40-£50.

 

Clearly the bailiff has charged you an "attending to remove" fee. He CANNOT charge this UNLESS a previous levy had been made.

 

You need to obtain a SCREEN SHOT of the account and then you can file a simple N1 Claim Form to the bailiff company.

 

PS: The local authority are wholly responsible for the fees charged by their bailiffs and therefore a FORMAL COMPLAINT should be made.

[T25]

No reply from the bailiffs.As it is now 17 days since I submitted my request,what should I do next?

[seanamarts]

No reply from the bailiffs.As it is now 17 days since I submitted my request,what should I do next?

Have you sent a formal complaint to the council, headed formal complaint and addressed it to the chief executive, if not I would do it now.

[T25]

Have you sent a formal complaint to the council, headed formal complaint and addressed it to the chief executive, if not I would do it now.

 

Formal complaint has been sent,although this was done after the one to the bailiffs.I sent an email and postal complaint.They stated that they would reply within 10 working days.They have a couple of days left.

[seanamarts]

Personally I would wait until I had heard from the council, If you dont have a response within the next few days from the council just nudge them a bit, it could be that the bailiffs havnt responded yet as it is being looked into by the council and possibly running around like headless chickens now you know your rights;)

Edited March 27, 2010 by seanamarts
errors

[lets fight bailiffs]

I think one thing has been missed out.

 

HCE, i am sorry but the Royal mail thing NotTrue, if the post has been put in a letter box that you do not have access therefore it has not been served on the address.

 

you say some of the £600 was for court costs therefore my first point of call would be to go to the court and fill out a stat dec to inform the court that you never received the original council or court letters because they had been posted to the incorrect address this you have proof of that is clear.

 

once you have done this the bailiff has to refund the court costs and fees.

 

now on to business rates, the way it works to date is the rates are worked out @ 49.3p per £ of the rentable value so if you £100 per year in rent (You wish) then you would pay £49.30 in rates, However this is the bit you need to note if part of your shop is storage it should be assesed at a lower rate, you should also check just how much floor space you have yourself and check if your bill is still in feet and inch if so you need them to re asses.

 

And if your business is suffering because of the econamy then you should also ask the council for a hardship form.

 

LFB

[tomtubby]

The Valuation Office have put a final date of 31st MARCH for businesses to register for their rates bill to be appealed.

 

Any applications after this date will not be valid.

[T25]

Ok,so today I finally received the list of charges from the bailiffs:

 

feb 11 2010 debt £2245.50 (this includes the court costs)

feb 18 2010 visit 1 £24.50 (I was working in the shop on this day.No one called?)

feb 22 2010 visit 2 £18.00

feb 22 2010 levy fee £81.00

feb 22 2010 walking possession £12.00

feb 22 2010 attendance/van £300.00

 

Whats my next move?

[Thegreenpimpernel]

What goods were levied on?

[Thegreenpimpernel]

I don't think the last four charges can be applied the same day!

 

I think it's just the levy & walking possession fee that are valid.

 

The van fee should, as i understand it, only be applied if they have to return due to you breaking your arrangement secured against the WP.

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Thegreenpimpernel

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Have you now paid this off?

[seanamarts]

Out of interest do you have CCTV in your shop?

would certainly back you up if they had not made a visit.

It would be interesting to know what they had levied on.

Had they left you any paperwork on this.