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Please help very worried! Cautioned on by National Express


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Hi All,

 

Today I was cautioned by a ticket inspecter (think Ircas) at Stamford Hill Station. I was travelling from Edmonton Green to Stamford Hill (10 min journey?. I had used my oyster card on the bus in the morning, but unfortunately I snapped it by accident during the day.

 

When returning home from work using the train, I attempted to touch in at Edmonton Green, but was not sure if it had worked (as card was broken). But I was in a massive rush as my car had broken down and was going to get towed. So I thought I would get on the train. When I arrived at Stamford Hill St there was a large group of ticket inspectors and transport police. I handed the broken card to the inspector, he could not read anything off it as it was broken and therefore in his eyes it was invalid. I was using pay-as-you-go and had about £2 on the card.

 

The inspector asked if I had £20 to pay and I didn't, I also didn't think to pay by debit card (he didn't offer either). The inspector then went onto interrogate me and basically accused me of lying, using the broken card as an excuse. He cautioned me (read me rights) took all my details and a statement. Told me the rail company would write to me.

 

I feel that I am in trouble as a penalty fare was not issued and does this therefore mean I will get a court summons?? However I offerred to go to the cash point withdraw £20 and return (police officer could have escorted me!) I am a teacher and I am extremely worried about this....

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Thank you

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Firstly, it will not have been IRCAS who have reported you

 

IRCAS are the processing company who deal with the paperwork

 

If you knew that your Oyster was broken before travelling and you knew that it could not be read because of this, you could find that you receive a Summons.

 

It is up to you to look after your card and bear in mind that in the case of a PAYG Oyster it carries your credit, but you must touch-in and register the start of your journey every time you travel.

 

If it can be shown that you knew it was broken before travelling and did nothing about it, the rail company might consider that you were intending to take advantage of that fact to avoid giving up the credit and not pay your fare.

 

I'd wait and see what letter you get from the company

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Thanks for replying Old-Codja.

 

I used my card in the morning on the bus and it did still have some credit on it. So it wasn't as if I had been using the card as an exscuse for a long period of time. When I got to Edmonton Green I was unsure whether it had worked or not. But because my car was being towed within 30min, I was in such a rush to get there, I did not think properly as to whether I had touched in. I said all this to the inspector, but he was so aggressive and looking to lead me down the guilty pathway. Even one of the police who were present asked me if I was ok. I have never once before had any previous with fare dodging, does this make a difference? Or any other criminal record for that matter.

 

I would like to write a letter of complaint about the inspector, but would you advise to wait for a letter from the company? How long does this letter generally take?

 

I never take the train, as I have a car, guess I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I am a school teacher so I am naturally very worried as to the outcome of this saga, as a criminal record would be disasterous for me.

 

Thanks again

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Thanks for replying Old-Codja.

 

I used my card in the morning on the bus and it did still have some credit on it. So it wasn't as if I had been using the card as an exscuse for a long period of time. When I got to Edmonton Green I was unsure whether it had worked or not. But because my car was being towed within 30min, I was in such a rush to get there, I did not think properly as to whether I had touched in. I said all this to the inspector, but he was so aggressive and looking to lead me down the guilty pathway. Even one of the police who were present asked me if I was ok. I have never once before had any previous with fare dodging, does this make a difference? Or any other criminal record for that matter.

 

I would like to write a letter of complaint about the inspector, but would you advise to wait for a letter from the company? How long does this letter generally take?

 

I never take the train, as I have a car, guess I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I am a school teacher so I am naturally very worried as to the outcome of this saga, as a criminal record would be disasterous for me.

 

Thanks again

 

If you believe that yiou have grounds for complaint regarding the way that you were treated, then you should make that complaint in writing straight away. In doing so, please remember, that means you need to be able to show that you were unfairly treated or that the Inspector was unduly aggressive or over zealous in dealing with the matter

 

It isn't enough just to disagree with an inspector who may have been enforcing the rules.

 

If Police were present, I would be surprised if they didn't atleast attempt to intervene if they thought that the inspector overstepped the mark. Where revenue matters are concerned, it is the inspector who makwes the decisions, not the Police

 

However, if you have the collar number for the officer who expressed concern, you could include that in any complaint, which will be an entirely separate matter from the issue of whether or not you showed a valid ticket

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In my opinion it seems the Inspector acted a little under-hand, due to reporting you as you did not have the money up-front to pay for the Penalty Fare, as there's nothing in law stating you have to pay immediately. If this is indeed what happened I would suggest you make the comapny aware of this, and if you are reported for summons, it would be worth seeing if the Inspector's statement states exactly what happened. Of course you might have said to him that you weren't going to accept a Penalty Fare, in which case, the Inspector was quite within his rights to report you. Don't get me wrong, he had grounds to report you anyway, but the very fact that you stated that he chose only to do so after you stated that you couldn't pay £20 Penalty Fare up-front seems a tad harsh to me (if of course that is what happened as I stated earlier...).

 

As far as accusations of lying go, an interview often feels like this, and it's probably more of a structured way of doing things as opposed to out and out accusations.

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Exactly Stigy, he initially asked for the £20, which I said I did not have. He then went onto question me straight away and in no time at all he was reading me my rights! I was so shocked! He also did not give me an option of paying by bank card, which I did have but never thought of using (stressed and taken aback by the situation). I also offered to withdraw money from the local ATM, which he plainly refused.

 

This is why I am confused, I thought if you do not have the funds up front, you have the opportunity to pay within 21 days???

 

This was the first time I have very been stopped without a valid ticket on public transport and I was naive as to the whole procedure. A very unpleasant and aggressive procedure it was and still is....

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Oh, by the way, if you are cautioned by an inspector should you recieve written notice at the scene??

Also I am planning on writing, with regards to the facts of the incident, with a cheque for £20 penalty fare and £2.10 for the journey (apologies). Do you think this would be a good idea?? It is not so much a complaint, but a written report stating the incident and the behaviour of the inspector.

Also does anybody know the address to send the letter too? I was on a national express route on the North East London line.

Thanks for your help.

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Oh, by the way, if you are cautioned by an inspector should you recieve written notice at the scene??

Also I am planning on writing, with regards to the facts of the incident, with a cheque for £20 penalty fare and £2.10 for the journey (apologies). Do you think this would be a good idea?? It is not so much a complaint, but a written report stating the incident and the behaviour of the inspector.

Also does anybody know the address to send the letter too? I was on a national express route on the North East London line.

Thanks for your help.

It would be pointless sending National Express £20 as I believe IRCAS or similar are the people that take the money initially and as such you'll only have the cheque send straight back. In answer to your other question, no, you don't get a written notification when cautioned, unless 'simple' cautioned by a Police Officer which is completely different. Some companies may do it differently, but as the caution you were given is merely because the Inspector was going to question you, there's no need for anything to be given to you.

 

Just to clarify, you weren't given a Penalty Fare, were you? :D

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No I did not get given a penalty fare.

So should I send the letter to National Express of Ircas? Who actually deals with the case?

Do you think I will be given a court summons or would it be more likely a fine, if so how much£££?

Lots of questions I know, but I am very anxious about this as my career may depend on this, as it seems, minor offense. :confused:

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No I did not get given a penalty fare.

So should I send the letter to National Express of Ircas? Who actually deals with the case?

Do you think I will be given a court summons or would it be more likely a fine, if so how much£££?

Lots of questions I know, but I am very anxious about this as my career may depend on this, as it seems, minor offense. :confused:

 

Stigy is right in that a Penalty Fare does not have to be paid immediately, BUT let's look at this a bit more closely.

 

It is wrong to assume that every time someone is found on a rail service without a valid ticket that they are entitled to be issued a penalty notice.

 

Lets look at the facts as written by the OP.

 

The post starts off talking about being at Stamford Hill station and this is a controlled ticket area where every traveller must show a valid ticket or, correctly validated Oyster on demand in compliance with Byelaw 17.

 

If the traveller cannot show a valid ticket on demand where pre-purchase facilities or, a validation point for Oyster was avaiable then an offence may be reported if the inspector believes that the fare was in jeopardy.

 

Now an important point arises if the inspector asks whether the traveller has the acceptable means to pay?

 

The rail company has the right (just like any other business) to determine what methods of payment are acceptable. The one thing they must accept is cash, but only if you are asked to pay. If the inspector genuinely believes that an offence is evident, then he or she is not obliged to accept a fare. In most cases a debit card cannot be used to pay on these trains because it cannot be validated electronically. That is the issuing banks rules. Credit cards can only be used at the self-service machines or, booking offices.

 

If the traveller has no valid ticket and no acceptable means to pay the fare due on demand, that traveller has no right to be on the railway. Clear warning signs are in place at the access to station platforms.

 

If the traveller shows that he or she had the means to pay the fare due in cash, but had not done so before travelling, that traveller may be reported for intending to avoid a fare unless challenged to do so contrary to Section 5 of The Regulation of Railways Act 1889. (Corbyn 1977)

 

If a traveller fails to show a valid ticket on demand when pre-purchase facilities were available, that traveller may be reported for a breach of Byelaw, which makes a strict liability requirement that the traveller must comply. (National Railway Byelaw 18.1 (2005))

 

A traveller who is late arriving at the staion or does not wish to queue to buy a ticket are not acceptable reasons for failing to ensure that a ticket is bought or an Oyster is validated before boarding a train.

 

You are entitled to complain if you genuinely believe that the inspector acted unfairly, but if you were cautioned and questioned under caution, with a record of your answers written down along with the questions that you were asked, then a report may well be in order.

 

You don't have to sign the notes when asked, but if you did not check and sign them, the inspector will (or should) have made a note of your refusal. Many people mistakenly believe that if they don't sign they cannot be prosecuted. I'm afraid that is not the case.

 

The best advice I can offer is that unless you are going to raise allegations in written complaint against the inspector, you should do nothing until you hear from the rail company,

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Thanks OC.

I have just discovered that my Oyster Card in question had credit of £1.91 and the fare between Ed Green to Stamford Hill is £1.80. So I did have funds to pay for the fare. I think the inspector believed I was using the card as an exscuse to travel, as he thought I had no funds on it. The card is also registered under my name

I have proof that my Oyster Card was working in the morning as I took a bus, so therefore i can prove that it snaped on the day of the incident. I was totally unaware as to whether I had touched in successfully or not, as I was rushing to get the train on the platform.......

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Thanks OC.

1. I have just discovered that my Oyster Card in question had credit of £1.91 and the fare between Ed Green to Stamford Hill is £1.80. So I did have funds to pay for the fare. I think the inspector believed I was using the card as an exscuse to travel, as he thought I had no funds on it. The card is also registered under my name

 

2. I have proof that my Oyster Card was working in the morning as I took a bus, so therefore i can prove that it snaped on the day of the incident.

 

3. I was totally unaware as to whether I had touched in successfully or not, as I was rushing to get the train on the platform.......

 

I have broken your post down into the three points of relevance

 

Firstly, I do understand your point of view, but I don't think this helps your case at all.

 

1. Your card held a credit of £1.91, but that doesn't prove that you had paid your fare, which is what the legislation requires.

 

A pay-as-you-go oyster card is just a means of carrying credit. It is no different to having a £10 note or a credit card in your pocket, but not buying a ticket before you get on. The oyster is usually described as an 'electronic purse'. You have to ensure that you have touched in properly to be sure that the card has been validated before you travel. It is at that point that the system 'collects' the fare due from your purse.

 

2. All that proves is that you paid for the bus fare

 

3. This is the important one. Your own words 'I was totally unaware as to whether I had touched in successfully as I was rushing..'

 

It is your responsibility to check that you have paid before travelling.

 

I have heard a very great many Magistrates advise travellers that 'rushing for a train is not an acceptable excuse for not having got a valid ticket'.

 

It may seem harsh to some people and I know that we're all very busy, but this 'case scenario' has been tested hundreds (actually thousands) of times since introduction of the oyster system and the vast majority can confirm that the Courts have found in favour of LUL, DLR and the TOCs where applicable.

 

I still think your best bet is to wait until you receive a letter from the rail company and then explain truthfully what happened. Hopefully they will either discontinue or, allow a reasonable administrative disposal

 

 

.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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  • 3 months later...

Hi All,

 

Just to update you all, I received a Court Summons yesterday, being accused of, 'entering a train in a non-compulsory ticket area for the purpose of travelling on the Railway without a valid ticket entitling travel'. Thet are claiming for £2.10 (fare) £100 (towards prosecution costs) plus fine.

 

Previously I sent a statement outlining my version of events, where I included an oyster statement proving I had sufficient funds on my 'broken' oyster card to cover my fare. I am almost certain they have not even considered this.

 

I am now extremely anxious about the outcome of this saga, which seems to have escalated out of all control. I am a school teacher so obviously any criminal record would be extremely detrimental to my career.

 

Any advice to best deal with this situation would be hugely appreciated....

 

Thanks

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That is a strict liabilty matter and im certain will result in a conviction if the matter proceeds to court.

You have 2 options, ask for an out of court settlement offering to pay all the prosecution costs & stating in mitigation that the consequences of a conviction would be disproportionate to the offence.

Or plead guilty to the offence at court in person, you can by post but its always best to appear.

There is some case law that relates to road traffic offences where if a person is summonsed to court when the matter could have been dealt with by way of fixed penalty the magistrates should fine the same as the original fixed penalty.

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Thanks SRPO. So do I contact the Prosecutions Unit of the rail company directly to try and settle out of court??

So how does it work in terms of a criminal record?

 

Yes, contact the railway prosecution unit that issued the Summons

 

The address will be on the paperwork

 

If they accept your offer of a settlement, you pay up and that is the end of the matter. Their records will show that you have had a written warning.

 

There can be no criminal record if a court has not heard the case and convicted you of an offence.

 

I'd get in touch with them as soon as possible

 

 

.

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