Full & Final Offers

[billyray]

Hi Banker,

 

I have a letter in writing of the 70% level. I wont call them under any circumstances.

 

I suppose we are near Q1 end, so I could hit them with a 50% offer.

 

Just feel my negotiations will go like this:

 

 

Billy

Edited March 15, 2010 by billyray
mistake

[ManSizedRooster]

Note my comments above about how Arsemex are usually unable to sell these Debts because Arsemex no longer owns them.

Getting them to admit that is the prize!

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Umm this is interesting, would you mind elucidating a little further on this?

[the_shadow]

Umm this is interesting, would you mind elucidating a little further on this?

 

See BRW's post #22 and look up on t'internet credit card securitisation and american securitisation law.

 

Its complex but the more you read the better you understand rather than have it explained. (thats how I took it in anyway :-D)

 

S.

[scott12345]

i too and on token payments but with rma,,there collectors i think,,

theyve asked me if id do a f/f to clear,,i would but .......

although id want it in writting acpeted in full and final(they say they will),is this wording certain to clear the debt,

im bit confused but im sure ive read in some posts that they came back on a debtor after a f/f aggreed ,,

has it hppened or if f/f is printed thats it end of debt?/

[Mydogsawestie]

i too and on token payments but with rma,,there collectors i think,,

theyve asked me if id do a f/f to clear,,i would but .......

although id want it in writting acpeted in full and final(they say they will),is this wording certain to clear the debt,

im bit confused but im sure ive read in some posts that they came back on a debtor after a f/f aggreed ,,

has it hppened or if f/f is printed thats it end of debt?/

 

I'd be interested to know this info too, when is a full & final really a full & final. I have an RMA one amongst my creditors who have produced diddly all when asked for CCA's, they have just shirked these responsibilities, yet keen to mither me if the DMP I am in are a few days late in making the monthly amount ...unbelievable.

[billyray]

Amex/newman whoever they are, rejected my offer for a full & final, and i have to "call them immediately" otherwise they are passing my account over to Copes solicitors.

 

Anyone any experience with them, or a bluff?

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello B!

 

Amex/newman whoever they are, rejected my offer for a full & final, and i have to "call them immediately" otherwise they are passing my account over to Copes solicitors.

I think you may now see why making such an offer was not worth the effort. Indeed, unless you headed the letter WITHOUT PREJUDICE then you need to allow for the fact they may try to use your offer against you.

 

Anyone any experience with them, or a bluff?

They cannot afford to bluff too often, because Debts with the Arsemex badge on are almost certainly not theirs to sell (although proving that will be fun).

 

So, they will take a percentage of people to Court, to prolong the urban myth that they are always in the right. Thanks to CAG, more and more people are understanding how they operate, and are willing to stand up against their obnoxious and bullying trigger happy mentality.

 

There are many Arsemex Threads on CAG, so get reading, and give yourself a head start on their likely next move.

 

Finally, keep everything in writing, and make sure you retain all Envelopes in relation to anything they send you (no matter how trivial). Log all Harassment Telephone Calls, and record any messages they elect to impose upon your answering machine.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[billyray]

I still dont know what to do next?

 

Offer more?

SAR them?

Ignore them?

 

The fact is they havent sent me a CCA, and I have placed my account in dispute. They are saying its not in dispute and they have complied.

 

Perplexed....

[uptoeyeballs]

I still dont know what to do next?

 

Offer more?

SAR them?

Ignore them?

 

The fact is they havent sent me a CCA, and I have placed my account in dispute. They are saying its not in dispute and they have complied.

 

Perplexed....

 

Hi billyray,

 

Amex always say they've complied and often send a "final letter" that says everything is in order when the facts are completely different to what they would like to brainwash you to believe.

 

Personally, I'm finding SAR's very useful.

 

uteb

[billyray]

Uptotheeyeballs,

 

I sent them my Final F&F recently, if they want the money they can have it, if not, I will SAR them. I expect to hear this week. But am not holding my breath.

 

Did SARing get a better F&F for you?

[uptoeyeballs]

Did SARing get a better F&F for you?

 

I'm not looking at F&F's for anything at the moment as I have no way of raising the funds.

 

Just that, if you have little information, then going through the SAR's can shed light on what happened. It can also cause/make them reveal things that you would otherwise not have known.

[dp77]

In my experience, which is limited, Amex don't pass on accounts, they always retain final control. I think they will accept offers below 70%, you should keep trying, especially if you have no property, or they cannot go for an attachment of earnings.

 

On the subject of offers; I'm led to believe that if you have made a "reasonable offer" and the claimant has rejected it then they most likely will not be awarded costs, should the case go against you. I keep reading that the CAB and CCCS have definitions of what a "reasonable offer" is, but cannot find anything further. Does anyone know what % of the amount claimed an offer needs to be to be deemed "reasonable"

[billyray]

An update my experience with Amex/Newman.

 

Newman had been on my account for 3 months, of which I had threat-o-grams of the nature of "you owe what you owe...pay up". I hit them with a few F&F offers. They said they wanted 70% of the debt. I offered them 60%. I heard nothing for a couple of weeks (even though they were usually pretty quick to respond).

I now find out that the debt has gone to RMA another DCA, who, unsurprisingly want "full payment". This happened whilst the account was in dispute too.

So back to square 1 again.

[dp77]

@ billyray - I have dealt with RMA, and can pass on my opinion that few - if any - of their employees made the grade at charm school.

 

If you want to settle I would repeat your offer to RMA. I would recommend you add that making the offer does not mean you acknowledge the validity of any claim against you, or their right to enforce any claim, you are offering to settle because you want a peaceful life.

 

You can point out the obvious stuff, chasing debt is time consuming, getting the money now is better than getting it later or not at all, your ability to pay in the future could diminish, you cannot guarantee the offer will be valid next month, etc.

 

If they refuse first time, repeat the offer again. Do you have any penalties / referral fees / fines in the amount being claimed from you? If so point that out and say you believe these are unfair and may well fall foul of the OFT guidelines on default debt collection.

 

If you can afford it I think settling is a good way to go, it's f**king time consuming reading up on Three Rivers versus Rankine versus Tunkey versus The Grim Reaper v Carey versus HSBC..........

[billyray]

Thanks DP.

 

What level of F&F do RMA accept?

 

I'm not going to offer the same offer i offered Newman.

[dp77]

Thanks DP.

 

What level of F&F do RMA accept?

 

I'm not going to offer the same offer i offered Newman.

 

I don't believe there is any set level of acceptance, as such. Obviously they will want as much as possible, how much lower than 100% they will go depends on a ton of factors; how old the debt is, how much you are repaying, are you a home owner, are you employed, is it more than 5k, what type of dispute, a whole range of things that will be specific to your case.

 

Generally Amex retain final control (unlike other companies Amex rarely sell debt), which means RMA may have to refer the decision anyway. If you offered Newman 60% then Amex will certainly know that - quite probably the decision to pass the account on so RMA could 'have a go' was based (in part) on you not agreeing to the 70% Newman offered.

 

My advice, which others may disagree with, is do what you can to settle - if you have the means to do so. These disputes become time consuming and corrosive, people take them personally, and to be honest despite all the expertise no one really knows what will happen if a debt gets passed for Court action - in civil proceedings the outcome is often down to how the Judge is feeling that day. You can go on and on and on about faulty default notices and no original agreement and they didn't do this on time and they didn't respond to my s78 and still lose.

 

The only time the law is applied more evenly is at Appeal, and that is a prohibitively expensive process.

[Kate987123]

Hi BillyRay,

 

Have just skimmed through the thread and (if I have read it correctly) they still haven't fulfilled your CCA Request?

 

If so, this might be of use to you... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/579-letter-when-dca-refuses-to-comply-with-a-cca-request

 

Hope it helps!

[billyray]

On the subject of RMA. I just received a postcard (posted, not by hand). Saying they will "contact me" between 8am-8pm.

 

It looks like they want me to interpret it as a doorstep visit. But is it?

[dp77]

On the subject of RMA. I just received a postcard (posted, not by hand). Saying they will "contact me" between 8am-8pm.

 

It looks like they want me to interpret it as a doorstep visit. But is it?

 

Extremely unlikely, as they would have to bear the cost of sending someone, you are also under no obligation to talk to them, or let them onto your property. This kind of ambiguous threat should really be outlawed, it's just a bullying tactic designed to intimidate.

 

RMA seem to be at the lower end of the debt collector evolutionary scale, they are trying the blunt instrument approach. Chances are that if you resist your account will be passed elsewhere. that is certainly what happened in my case.

[billyray]

And my account is still in dispute with amex too!

[stevehatesbankers]

Any updates billyray? Yours is a similar scenario to mine. RMA are the most ignorant bunch of t*ssers as are Newmans.

[billyray]

I've CCA'd RMA. They sent me another attempt of a CCA. That was about 2 weeks back. Now nothing. Silence is golden.

 

RMA did say I qualified for a "special discount" on what i owed, but had to phone them to find out what it was. I told them i would only correspond in writing, and they never wrote to say what it was.

[billyray]

Another threat-o-gram today from RMA.

 

Bankrupcy, warrant of execution from bailiffs, and attachment of earnings were discussed.

 

Is it worth ignoring correspondance with these clowns and writing/negotiating direct with amex?

[The Mould]

Another threat-o-gram today from RMA.

 

Bankrupcy, warrant of execution from bailiffs, and attachment of earnings were discussed.

 

Is it worth ignoring correspondance with these clowns and writing/negotiating direct with amex?

 

 

Hello there billyray,

 

Yes, ignor the robots, but keep all of their threaterning letters and the envelopes that they came in.

 

Send a Full and Final Settlement offer to the original creditor (amex),

 

Send the offer 'Without any admission of liability to the amount claimed'

 

Include a clause in the settlement agreement for them to return the enclosed cheque settlement payment within 7 days if they cannot or are unwilling to accept the said cheque payment that is tendered unequivocally in Full and Final payment to the account.

 

Also as a further condition of the settlement agreement, request that they make an entry on your credit files to show the account status as settled, closed/cancelled, balance £0 and that any adverse data is removed from the credit file.

 

You should ensure that the cheque payment is from a third party.

 

Before you send off the settlement offer, take photo copies of both the offer of settlement letter and the cheque together.

 

There is a genuine dispute on the account, there is their offer and your counter offer, the cheque payment is from a third party, your offer is 'Without any admission of liability to the amount claimed', your offer includes a clause for them to return the enclosed cheque payment.

 

If they present the cheque for payment in these circumstances, then that will be a clear, unequivocal and qualified acceptance by conduct and they will be legally bound to the settlement agreement and the terms of the said agreement.

 

If they reject such an offer as this, then under these circumstances they must return the cheque payment along with their rejection, if they present/bank the third party cheque and then give their rejection, it will be too late, even if the rejection in these circumstances is swift (within 7 days).

 

Even if the present the cheque and it is not duly honoured, they will be bound to the settlement agreement.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[billyray]

Thanks TM,

 

Do you think I will have more luck communicating directly with amex, than going through their DCA?

 

Billy