Nat West/AIC

[LEGIN 65]

Hi all hoping for some help or opinion?

 

6th Nov 09 - I entered into an IVA, one of my creditors was Nat West, who agreed to the IVA. One of the accounts was a joint account with my wife, to which we had an overdraft of £3772.38. I clearly understood that as the IVA was for me, that my wife would still have to pay towards the account. A provision was made in the IVA for us to pay £30 @month however my wife needed to agree this with the NW. We contacted the NW and told them of the situation and they said that would be getting in touch. (now i know how naive we were).

 

17th Nov 09 - received a letter from the NW saying that she needed to pay an excess of £113.93, as the account had gone over the OD limit ( only because they had placed interest charges on it) and had to call the Collections centre to pay it. I called with my wife and explained all that had gone before and that some one was going to contact us to arrange a plan.

The very nice chap said that, that was not his job, although he understood and would increase the OD limit ( which i said no too), but he said it would help getting the excess payment. He would also chase up someone calling us but because he increased the OD limit the account would go back to branch.

 

2nd Dec 09 - Both of us got a letter stated the because the excess was not paid we had occured £30 charges. Guess what, my very nice helpful chap had not done a thing. Also with the letter was a notice of intention to default the account within 28 days - So i visited my branch who said they account was with Collections and i needed to ring them. I did and they said that I needed to pay the excess and charges, I explained again that we could not and went through the whole thing again. I was told that they would get someone to ring my wife within the next 2 weeks to sort out a plan.

 

2oth Dec 09 - New letter from the NW Collections asking for £133.76 excess as we had paid the last one and we were now further OD if we did not pay the account would be passed to the Recovery dept from the Collection dept. I rang then again and you guessed it the same old, same old. I ask tp speak to the manager of the Collections dept (who's name id always scanned on to the letters) however she was busy but they did agree to ring my wife in 2-3 days to discuss a plan.

 

23th Dec 09 - Phoned call, ya! - however it was a vicious little cow who, would not accept anything my wife said to her and demanded she pay the excess outstanding before they would entertain a discussion. ( my wife not the strongest of people) left the cow on the phone and rung me at work on my mobile in tears. I asked her to get the cow to ring me, she wouldn't but did agree to link up on a conference call. Again she got going with me until i shut her up and demanded she listen to me. I again explained what had gone before she said that we could move forward if we paid the excess - Big mistake, I paid the£133.76 excess and £36.47 January charge forth coming - in the belief that finally someone from NW would contact us about a plan.

 

7th Jan 10 - had heard nothing, so i wrote a letter to NW Collections explaining everything of our situation and asking again for someone to please contact my wife to discuss a plan, I included my personal income/exp account statement from my IVA and reminded them that they agreed to it.

 

25th Jan 10 - My wife got a letter from the NW saying that they were concerned about our outstanding liablities and were going to pass our account to a external agent. The was no name on the letter just recovery manager and a scribble which is unreadable.

 

4th feb 10 - automated call - rang the number to stop but no answer (3 times during day)

 

5th Feb 10 - My wife got a Yellow card from AIC asking her to ring Mr R Watson to discuss how she was going to pay the outstanding balance owed to their client NW. I called AIC, but they would only speak to my wife, when she got home they did not answer. I them typed in AIC in goggle and Wham here we are. Seeing what other people have been going through i decided not to talk to them.

Also rang NW Collections and spoke to a guy(got his name this time) but he said could not help i needed to ring Recovery.

Rang Recovery spoke to another guy(got name) wno said nothing he could do been past to 3rd party. I asked why, he said explained in letter dated 25th Jan (re liablities) again i went through the process of explain everything but he was not interested and guess what won't put me through to his manager.

After readind the threads of others i decided to chance my arm and sent AIC a letter recorded delivery stating CCA with a £1 post order. Although i don't know if this applies to OD's, plus asking them not to phone but to correspond via post.

 

6th -19th automated calls everyday nearly

 

25th Feb 10 - 12 working days +2 is up not heard and not had phone call for 6 days - nervous

 

26th Feb 10 - my wife received letter from AIC thanking her for her letter, returning her letter, returning the £1 post order and telling her that they are acting on behave of NW to recover debt.

Plus as such as they are acting on behave of NW any documentation she wants should be provided by them and there is an address to the RBS in Telford and she will need to provide her current sort code and account number, a piece of photographic identity with signature and a £1 post order payable to NW.

 

So thats where i am, very long i know sorry - anyone got opinion/advice of what next?

 

thanks Legin 65

[Pinky69]

AIC are talking through a hole in their trousers. They must get from the original creditor any inofrmation you ask for. They are just too lazy to be bothered. If you are still getting phone calls send them this:

 

Harassment by telephone - response letter

 

but better still is the BT Choose to Refuse service and even better still Trucall, which you can buy on here and is a bit pricey but well worth it for total silence from DCAs like AIC.

 

I would send NatWest an SAR and get all your information form them, then you can see what charges have been added and claim them back.

 

Subject Access Request - Debt & DCA

 

Enclose a £10 postal order and they have 40 days to reply. Once you have reclaimed charges then you can see what is left to pay. Then you decide what you can afford to repay, not what AIC say you should pay. You are in charge of this, not AIC, and they have no powers over you whatsoever.

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Legin,

Glad you got your first thread sorted

Just goes to show how you get treated when you do as advised elsewhere, ie "talk to your bank".

Now you've found CAG and by reading as much as you can you'll realise how talking to them on the phone rarely helps anyone but them-and gives them the opportunity to bully you and make statements which they'll later deny.

As Pinky says above, a Subject Access Request is a good start. CCA's don't technically affect OD's in any way that's of benefit, so little point relying on that.

Main rule now is to keep everything in writing.Absolutely no phone discussions with NW or AIC, so that you have a solid papertrail of your efforts to sort it out...and their incompetence or unwillingness to help.

Send AIC the telephone harrassment letter as above, and include that the account is in dispute with NW and pending receipt of a Subject access Request, so no further correspondence can be entered into until you have been supplied with full information regarding this alleged debt.

 

Best wishes,

Elsa x

[LEGIN 65]

Thank you to you both, this will be next step and we'll see what happens

cheers

[LEGIN 65]

Today I have received a letter from the Nat West, informing me that it is not their practice to provide me with further copies of documents that they may have sent me during their normal course of business.

Can I ask for them anyway?

 

Also they want to know how far back i want them. Is there a date that would be a realistic date?

 

Cheers

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Legin - save that letter-it's against ICO guidelines. You have a right to ALL the info they hold on you. End of.

Did you send for the Subject Access Request using the template Pinky linked for you?

By recorded delivery? With a £10 fee?

Have you checked online with the PO to see what date it was received?

The 40 days started ticking when they received it. They cannot refuse you, by law

[LEGIN 65]

Yes did everything as advised.

The letter went on the 3rd March, Special Del

Signed for and arrived on the 4th March.

 

How far back do you think is realistic?

[Undercover-Elsa]

Well certainly from the start of the overdraft. However, they should send you everything they have. You could reply on the lines of:

 

 

Thankyou for your letter. You are required to supply me with copies of all the data which you hold on me in relation to any matter and in any form and for any period of time.

 

Please note that I require disclosure of any personal data which you hold on me for the entire period of my dealings with you.

 

The Subject Access is not limited to my transaction history and it is not limited merely to 6 years of historical information.

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

I have already enclosed the statutory maximum fee of £10 and note that you signed for my original request on 4th March 2010, therefore you have 40 days from that date in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties or charges which are invalid under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations against me, then I shall be reclaiming them together with any interest charges which you have levied on them.

May I point out that it is your mishandling of my account and aggressive attempts at collection which has created the necessity for this Subject Access Request.

I am fully aware of ICO guidelines on fulfilling Data requests, a copy of which I enclose for your reference.

 

For your own ref, or in case you want to include a copy with your reply, or quote it, here's the ICO guidelines.

[Undercover-Elsa]

Make em work for it

[LEGIN 65]

Thanks

[LEGIN 65]

This is a copy of the letter I sent 3rd March2010

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

This is a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act 1998

 

Please supply me with all data that you hold on me. This includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:-

 

1. The original signed, executed credit agreement/s and any terms and conditions that applied to the account/s at the time of default and at the time the account/s was/were opened.

 

2. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with ORIGINAL CREDITOR. - delete or add this depending on whether you are sending this to the original creditor/or a debt collection agency

 

3. True copies of any notice of assignment and default notices or enforcement notice that you/or name of the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

 

4. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account/s, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date/s they were/ it was added and deleted. (if applicable).

 

5. Details of any collection charges added to the account/s; specifically, the date they were/it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was/charges were calculated, and what the charge covers/charges cover.

 

6. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account/these accounts and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

7. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

8. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

9. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement/s.

10.Termination notices

 

PLEASE NOTE that unless otherwise stated by yourselves and if the above documents are NOT provided, it will be CONFIRMED that you are unable to reproduce/provide in any way shape or form any copies of the above requested documents. You are reminded that you have a duty to inform me if you do not have the above documents. This is confirmed in High Court Law - Ezsias v Welsh Ministers - [2007] All ER (D) 65 (Dec)

 

You are reminded that you are obliged to supply all the above documents in line with the Information Commissioners Technical Guidance update (Dated August 2007)

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

They replied - re comments (9th March thread)

 

So I sent another letter -

 

Re: Data Protection Act 1998 – Subject Access Request

 

Thank you for your reply to our request for our personal data held by National Westminster Bank PLC.

You are required to supply me with copies of all the data which you hold on me in relation to any matter and in any form and for any period of time.

 

Please note that I require disclosure of any personal data which you hold on me for the entire period of my dealings with you.

 

The Subject Access is not limited to my transaction history and it is not limited merely to 6 years of historical information.

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I have already enclosed the statutory maximum fee of £10 and note that you signed for my original request on 5th March 2010; therefore you have 40 days from that date in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties or charges which are invalid under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations against me, then I shall be reclaiming them together with any interest charges which you have levied on them.

 

May I point out that it is your mishandling of my account and aggressive attempts at collection which has created the necessity for this Subject Access Request.

I am fully aware of Information Commissioner`s Office guidelines on fulfilling Data requests, a copy of which I enclose for your reference.

 

I have received two letters back

 

1st. enclosing what they call personal data - this only dates back to 18/4/07 and is on one and a half pages. They ask if 'I consider the the data incomplete and if possible could i provide further details to assist them in locating any data i believe is missing?

 

2nd. a copy of my statements for my account dated from 20th march 2003.

 

I have been with Nat West since 1986 a least?

 

So -

Do I need to reply to them for more data?

Have they supplied me with everything that was original asked for, in my first letter. I don't believe they have. All they have sent me is my statements, an event history which shows 1 thing in 2007, 1 in 2008 and the rest just what has been going on since i started my IVA in Nov 2009, plus a copy of the letter i sent them.

 

Now I have got this info, What am I looking for? I am very new to this.

[LEGIN 65]

PS, by the way have heard nothing from Credit international for 3 weeks

[Pinky69]

Make a list of everything listed in your SAR and ask them again for the documents they didn't send. You are looking first of all for a copy of your agreement. Then Terms and Conditions. All available statements. Details of the date when a Default Notice was sent if one was sent(they do them on templates and don't keep copies of them). A copy of any termination letter. A copy of the Notice of Assignment assigning the alleged debt to AIC. Once you have them we can have a look at what they send as a copy of an agreement and see if it is enforceable. If they don't send one or what they send is unenforceable AIC have no lawful right to ask for payment and they can go and jump in the nearest lake.

[LEGIN 65]

Copy of letter sent 4th April -

 

Re: Data Protection Act 1998 – Subject Access Request

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Firstly we would like to thank you for supplying us with the information we have so far received. As stated in your letter of 22nd March 2010 “If we consider the data enclosed is incomplete” then we should contact your office for any missing details or information.

 

We do not consider that you have responded in full to our request in our previous correspondence (enclosed) and have highlighted in RED the parts of our request to which you have not supplied the full information requested.

 

The Account referred to was originally a sole account in the name of Mr *** but in 1991 the account was revised to a Joint account in our both names. It is from the start of this Joint Account in 1991 that we believe you have failed to supply full details and thus we require you to provide full information of all activity on the account from that date. To date you have ONLY supplied personal data from the year 2007 and statements of activities on the account from the year 2003. You have therefore supplied insufficient information and data to discharge our request.

 

Additionally you have still failed to supply us with several documents these include

• A copy of Original Agreement and Terms & Conditions

• Details of the date when a Default Notice was sent to us and a Copy of that Notice.

• A copy of any Termination Letter you claim to have sent

• A copy of the Notice of Assignment assigning an alleged debt to a Third Party.

Until these outstanding Issues are fully resolved and we are in possession of the outstanding data and information we do not considered that you have fully responded to our requested information. This lack of response prevents us from moving forward in any way to bring this issue to any kind of conclusion.

 

We therefore await your further response.

 

Yours respectfully

 

The 2 letters referred to are in previous posts

[LEGIN 65]

Today 13th April is Day 40 of Subject Access request signed by them on 4th March.

 

Surprise - have got a big pack of stuff from Nat West ( one each me & wife) to sign for.

 

1) I noticed is it is from the Nat West Regulatory Risk dept, first time had contact with them normally it comes from the recovery dept.

 

2) they have supplied us with the same statements as before dating only back to 31/3/2003

 

3) Also with the statements is computer generated account details - type of account, interest details, last time amended (31/3/2010), direct debit summary (all closed sept 09 any way) and copy of my letters sent to them.

 

4) personal data again computer generated -account balance, personal details ( interestingly date of first contact 15June1990) and customer ID last updated 29/3/2007, some copies of cancelled standing orders, PIN change and a case note from 2007 when I had a new card.

 

THAT'S IT.

 

The Letter that came with it states -

 

Subject request response

 

further to your recent request, i enclose your personal data held by Nat West. This Personal data has been located using the information you have provided.

Nat West processes your personal data to maintain our relationship and manage the accounts that you hold. Full details of our processing would have been provided in your terms and conditions.

Any disclosures of your personal data would only have been made in accordance with the terms and conditions agreed.

Any internal codes used by the Bank have been replaced with a description of meaning and are covered in our "Explanation of the Codes" appendix, which is enclosed.

If you have any queries please do not hesitate to contact me at the above address shown. ( Which as said is the Regulatory dept, Edinburgh)

 

They have not supplied - anything I asked for in letter 4th march including

 

• A copy of Original Agreement and Terms & Conditions

• Details of the date when a Default Notice was sent to us and a Copy of that Notice.

• A copy of any Termination Letter you claim to have sent

• A copy of the Notice of Assignment assigning an alleged debt to a Third Party.

 

and most of what was asked for original in Subject request 3/3/2010

 

So What next please? advice gratefully received

 

Legin 65

[Pinky69]

You won't get a copy of the Default Notice - they do them on templates and don't keep copies - but it should show on the history sheet if they sent one. They haven't sent a copy of the agreement and Terms and Conditions so I would now put the Account in Dispute and ignore them unless they provide you with a copy of the agreement. Would you pay me just because I asked you with no proof? No - AIC can go jump in the river and Natwest have to provide a copy of the agreement if they want payment on this alleged debt.

[LEGIN 65]

Is there a standard dispute letter (template) or do I need to add more?

Do I need to ask for the terms & agreement again?

What am I looking for in regards to interest I can try and claim back?