Problems during service - Garages Liability?

[FunkyFox]

Hi all, any advice on the following situation so I can advise my old Mum would be very helpful please.

 

You agree a price for a main dealer oil & filter change.

 

Whilst waiting for the work to be done the service manager says there has been a 'problem' and that the sump plug has stripped the thread and they will attempt a repair. They charge additional £48+vat for the privilledge of the repair.

 

24hours on, car has developed an oil leak, presumambly from the repaired sump plug. Garage advise they will attempt another repair and if that fails then its a new sump at £210 + vat.

 

A £99 service and inspection has turned into possibly £400 bill. The garages response is these things happen and that they are a business and can't put things right for free! They say it's an old car (10 years old in absolutely perfect condition with FDSH - they were the last people to tighten the sump plug) and a fault of having steel fixings on alloy sumps! Ultimately they are saying its not their fault or issue. My position is that they failed to take due care when changing the sump plug, charged for a failed repair and want Mum to pay a further £200 to put it right.

 

I have advised Mum to pay the final bill, use a credit card and write on the invoice, 'paid under duress' on the invoice but would like any advice if they don't repay her, on what basis could she issue a small claims court claim?

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance, FF

[yekrats]

ounds to me that the garage failed to excersise due care They should know about problems of steel in alloy If they serviced car before why didnt they put copper grease on plug before refitting Also "the sump plug has stripped its thread " oh yes all by itself not some idiot who aplied too much force?

You can get a leaflet from the County Court simply by ringing them which gives you all the information you need to start a cc action

Good luck

[JimmySpangle]

Was the sump plug leaking before they did the oil change? No? they damaged it. Tell them to replace the sumnp at their cost and refund you the chareg for the bodge that a) wasn't your fault and b) wasn't done correctly.

 

If they do not wish to pay then take them to court.

 

Did you see a line of horses outside? Most cowboys don't use them anymore, but some do.

[heliosuk]

Yekrats is very wide of the mark here and is in fact giving advice that can lead to serious consequences. In fact it's downright irresponsible to suggest it. You just don't put copper grease on a steel thread into alloy as the clamping forces will not be correct. Again it's not needed in this area. And yes, steel into alloy is not the best way of doing it as by it's material nature it will wear and does have a finite life.so will strip unexpectedly. However, as we all know that this particular bolt is never tightened to the correct torque which exasperates the situation.

 

In this particular case the OP's mother should go back to garage with the correct fix procedure which is to fit a stainless steel helicoil with a new steel bolt/drain plug. The fix should take about half an hour. If it's the case that what they have done means that a helicoil back to standard size will not work then the same principal with inserts is available where the hole is taken oversize and an insert fitted to bring back to nominal.

 

All can be done in situ.

 

Kits to do this are cheap and the parts/helicoils/inserts should be less than a couple of pounds each. Time is around half an hour max.

 

Regarding responsibility then it's a 50/50 call but they need to cover the failed repair.

 

I'd sit down with the manager and point this out. Will work out far better for both as taking them to court is easily defended on this one.

[yekrats]

I beg to differ there

[yekrats]

the garage are at fault irrespective of Copper grease . I have always used a smidgen of copper grease as I do on allow wheels which otherwise stick to the brake base plate Yes id you go mad with the grease the torques will be wrong due to the compression of the grease. With a sump plug you are applying it to the threads in minute quantity and will not affect the torque setting adversley I have used this method for 50 years and never had a problem with leaks (always fitting a new washer ) or alloys which "weld " to brake plates Your advice on helicoils is correct

[heliosuk]

Sorry yekrats, like you I beg to differ. Whilst I respect your 50 years experience, material technology has moved on. In the case of a sump plug then I'd agree the use of copper grease is neglible. However the use of copper grease or any other lubricant on safety critical items such as wheel nuts or bolts is a massive no no. This is one of the reasons why the likes of fast fit centres say that the wheels need to be checked as it's a CYA action for not doing the job correctly in the first place. You'd be amazed at the number of instances where procedures have not been adhered to result in torque relaxation and subsequent customer complaints for things coming loose. It's a fair enough comment to use lubricants on contact surfaces but again these need to be of the correct type. Copper grease is not the be all and end all to every situation which is why it's not specified with many manufacturers for the use where alloy wheels are concerned, around the hub flange.

 

I could go on with your comments about using a new washer which is the correct way of doing things and it suggests to me that you did the job properly but because you do just this is not a result of you using the copper grease.

 

Overall, if the OP follows my suggested route and the service manager has some technical nounce and experience then there should not be any problem. They've been given a get out of jail card here.

 

I would also suggest that when they do the job that they pressurise the oil feed systems with compressed air as a belt and braces system to further limit the possibility of particles that might happen in the helicoil/insert repair process being picked up.

 

Overall the OP has to determine if the garage acted irresponsibly in terms of the repair but the very nature of the fault leads it into a grey area and any claim could only be against the repair. So, for the time being it's a case of negotiating with the garage and given the info posted by all they should get a good result.

[yekrats]

i bow to your health and safety knowledge cheers. I will do my own servicing and copper slip wheel brake flange contacts (not the threads) and on my sump plug and enjoy my car happy that some job scheme mechanic hasnt touched it !

Kind regards

[heliosuk]

I can see and know where you are coming from and appreciate this however there are people who know and people who think they know which can get most frustrating at times. Even I am not infallible to this. It's important to recognise I belive in this forum that the advice given should be accurate in relation to engineering aspects as it can often lead to confusion and lead people into making very wrong decisions.

 

It's nice to see that you are on board the motoring forums and from the limited posts you currently have something makes me feel you will make very valued contributions. In fact it makes a pleasent surprise!

 

BTW, post has nothing to do with H&S, just engineering principles!

[yekrats]

no problem

kind regards

[scaniaman]

Now now boys,don't throw your toys out of the pram. Just put a new copper washer on and tighten to correct torque. Best washers I have used are "ridged" and compress with torque. As oil drops from sump onto plug during fitting then i can't see need for coppaslip. Prevention is better than cure!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some cowboys don't now drain the oil. I think somewhere on this site that it says Kwik Fit and some large franchises only suck old oil out!!

Perhaps Heliosuk would tell us what lubricant to use when assembling wheels etc. I have seen many car wheel studs ruined by fitting/unfitting dry components. Of course, nowadays many wheels are held on by bolts and not nuts.

HGV's--I would never fit either steel or particularly alloy wheels without liberal amounts of a good quality copper lube (not a well known brand). Since hub fitting came in, it's impossible to remove wheels not well lubricated (has to be copper based to cope with extreme heat.)

I have used copper lube on all wheels and brake components for years without incident. Hard lesson taught me to use copper lube on all alloy/ steel mating surfaces (except sump plug). Alloy sets up a reaction when in contact with steel and this reaction acts like a good strong weld. I can prove it. In this instance, the helicoil route is correct.

[yekrats]

Thanks Scania man I once took me an hour to get an alloy off my wifes MG just because it had been put on dry Friends have had similar experiences. As you say alloy and steel react which is why Morgan and commercial body builders put a rubber washer between the body and chassis My wheelnuts had been tightened so hard after National tyres fitted new tyres it took two of us to slacken them !

[j66]

Sounds to me like a VW group car. What can the garage do when the thread strips when taking the plug out?, it's hardly their fault. The threads in VW alloy sumps are weak and at presumably its 10th oil change they are going to be worn. You don't renew the washers on these plugs, you replace the plug which has an integral washer. Why would you want to grease threads that basically live in a pool of oil?

 

They tried to get you out of trouble for £48 and it didn't work so a new sump is required to fix it, that's cars, things wear out. You could negotiate the cost of the repair deducted from the cost of replacing the sump and chase all the previous servicing garages for a contribution.

[heliosuk]

The thing is Scania and yekrats that if the job is done correctly then there should be no need to resort to this. Most capable and well trained mechanics would clean the surfaces properly prior to refitment. A recommended grease for contact surfaces between alloys and steel hubs is usually plastic based as copper grease can add to the issue of electrolytic reaction. Lubricants on thread surfaces in safety critical situations is a general no, no. I think the main problem is that few people do the job properly in terms of cleaning and torquing correctly which yekrats has pointed out.

 

I cannot count the times I have told the tyre fitting people to go back and do it properley when having my tyres changed.

 

The rubber seal is not just there to prevent electrolytic corrosion but to seal it against water ingress as well which is why beetles had it pre war plus a load of other cars.

[paul self builder]

Sounds to me like a VW group car. What can the garage do when the thread strips when taking the plug out?, it's hardly their fault. The threads in VW alloy sumps are weak and at presumably its 10th oil change they are going to be worn. You don't renew the washers on these plugs, you replace the plug which has an integral washer. Why would you want to grease threads that basically live in a pool of oil?

 

They tried to get you out of trouble for £48 and it didn't work so a new sump is required to fix it, that's cars, things wear out. You could negotiate the cost of the repair deducted from the cost of replacing the sump and chase all the previous servicing garages for a contribution.

 

I fully agree with j66 on this one! Regardless of make, its still 10 years old with at least 10 oil changes done. All main dealers are only franchises (normally owned by a local fat cat who has to fund his golf club green fees at the end of the day), and will try every trick in the book to avoid having to pay for the mechanics cock-ups!

Heliosuk & yekrats? You might want to take another look at the question FunkyFox posted all them threads ago! Me thinks you've gone off on a tangent here?!XX:)

[paul self builder]

Hi all, any advice on the following situation so I can advise my old Mum would be very helpful please.

 

They say it's an old car (10 years old in absolutely perfect condition with FDSH - they were the last people to tighten the sump plug) and a fault of having steel fixings on alloy sumps!

 

Just a thought..... Are they admitting that theres a manufacturing fault with one of their cars here? Hmmmmm!

 

It can only be that the mechanic who done the last oil change overdid it with the wrench on completion, or the mechanic who took the plug off this time didnt take due care!

Regardless of the atomic capillery molecular resistance & reaction of one metal to another that heliosuk & yekrat talk of:confused:, there are ALWAYS ways and means of getting seized sump plugs out!

 

I would in 1st instance speak with the dealers service manager.

If this gets you nowhere i would then write to the main dealer H/Q because at the end of the day, they could push the franchise into doing more about it!

Hope this helps?

[scaniaman]

It must be a hec of a poor reflection on modern day engineering if a sump plug goes wrong after only 10 changes or so, irrespective of age.

IF, this does transpire to be correct, then it's a clear case of FAULTY DESIGN. I have never heard of so much crap as having to replace a whole sump just because of a stripped thread.

For what it's worth, all the alloy sumps i workrd with over the years, had brass plugs fitted---not steel!.

Edited March 2, 2010 by scaniaman

[heliosuk]

It must be a hec of a poor reflection on modern day engineering if a sump plug goes wrong after only 10 changes or so, irrespective of age.

IF, this does transpire to be correct, then it's a clear case of FAULTY DESIGN. I have never heard of so much crap as having to replace a whole sump just because of a stripped thread.

For what it's worth, all the alloy sumps i workrd with over the years, had brass plugs fitted---not steel!.

 

If self builder reads the thread correctly then it will be seen that this is exactly what was recommended earlier in the thread with an easy and cheap fix to go as well. It's easy to take the P about the use of lubricants on threads but it's a very serious subject often abused and I sincerely hope that the earlier post tonight under "worried" is not a result of such actions as this is a typical failure mode of the use of copper grease.

 

As I often point out, the engineering design and verification principles are usually to around 150K miles so with service intervals of between 12 and 20K miles theres only a need to remove and refit bteween 7.5 and 12.5 times in it's designed life.

 

Now believe it or not, this is good engineering. However if it has gone "spaghetti" ( scania will get!!!) then the fix is there and doesn't need a new sump.

 

I think what you have worked on scania is a bit different in reality to cars but the principles still apply.

 

Off for a Nastramo!!

[scaniaman]

Please excuse my ignorance, but would "Nastramo" be a Pizza or Spag Bog??????????????LOL

Worked on cars, trucks and stationary engines with alloy sumps!----in the good old days when "Motors" were built to last!!!

[heliosuk]

It's a thin golden colour liquid with good lubricant properties for humans where things get better the more you use. Too much use of said lubricant can lead to embarassing situations. Not totally sure of the actual properties but some of the content probably freezes at around -130. North of Hadrians wall however, they do a much better version!!

[rambo]

As the dealer was the last person to fit and tighten the sump plug, I would say that they are at fault.

[paul self builder]

Yes, and also R134A boils off at -26.3 celcius sea level.

[heliosuk]

Lol!!