eBay Vero

[Whatever_next]

I have a number of friends who have had items removed from sale because of "copyright" infringement. Each of them was selling a craft CD by someone who is called Robert Addams. He has joined Vero on eBay which he says disallows anyone to sell a genuine used CD that he sold to them. Apparently what he does is, if you don't end your listing immediately, complain to the Vero team who take down the item without even looking at it.

 

I have several legitimate, original, Craft CD's by this guy that I would like to sell on as I no longer use them. I was so intrigued by the trouble my friends have had that I rang Trading Standards who tell me categorically that I can sell on anything if I legitimately bought it, it is original and not copied and that by him initially selling it to me he surrenders his right to "copyright".

 

My query: What exactly is Vero, how does it work and is it legal in the UK? If Tradings Standards say I can sell my genuine, used CDs, can eBay/Vero override this fact?

[hightail]

Sorry to say it works however ebay want it to work on their site. Some people are very sensitive to their stuff being sold on ebay as they feel it 'lowers the tone'. Shakin' Stevens is known to be particularly touchy and his stuff is removed pronto. You would think these people had better things to do - or maybe not.

[Whatever_next]

Thank you hightail. If Trading Standards tell me that it is legal I am interested to know how eBay can use Vero to overcome this. I am not sure it can be both legal and illegal at the same time.

[hightail]

Ebay use many words and terms to mean exactly what they want which sometimes isn't the same way the rest of the world understands them. Go to sell your second-hand cd at a car boot sale and Trading Standards will be quite happy. On ebay you are at the mercy of ebay.

[grockle]

If this Robert Addams is in the UK and you want to have a bit of fun, send him an email reminding him that he is clueless about copyrite law.

 

"Where an item is legally on sale within the EU (not just the UK),

from either a wholesale or retail outlet, and is not a grey import

or counterfeit, then,once it has been sold for the first time, its

considered to be "in the stream of commerce".

The verified rights owner, retains ownership of the trademark and

copyrite, but no longer owns the item or has control over

resale."

"If consumers cannot transfer ownership of an item...they are effectively

deprived of part of what they have paid for. such a restriction is a 'disguised penalty'."

 

Do a search for "tabberone.com" and see how this lady deals with the vero members who think they own the world.

[buzby]

It is eBay's ball (and park) come to think of it. The fact you can still sell the item legally anywhere else you want should tell you perhaps where you;re trying to sell won't be a great idea anyway - irrespective of the wishes of the retailer.

[Whatever_next]

Thanks Grockle. I don't think US laws apply here and I had read tabberone's page. Feisty lady. In fact in the USA there is something called Exhaustion Rights but as far as I can determine it doesn't pertain in the UK, at least not in law, though historically there was quite a lot of discussion about it in the EC Treaty. As far as I can ascertain Vero is something Ebay introduced themselves. So, in effect, it is an "in house" ruling that has nothing to do with the law itself but it seems it is hardly worth the aggro getting into a fight over a few Craft CDs.

[Whatever_next]

Hi Buzby, you are right. It is not worth the hassle as they can be sold elsewhere; that is what I shall do. Quite frankly, I would have liked to have "poked eBay's eye" if I could have indicated chapter and verse that they were breaking the law but Trading Standards tell me that there actually is no law covering this problem even though they maintain I am entitled to be able to sell a genuine, owned, CD ROM to whomever I like.

[hightail]

Selling elsewhere does seem the best option. You could advertise it on other classified ad sites - Freeads, FridayAds, Gumtree etc. It probably wouldn't be seen by so many people but at least it's free to list and I don't think Mr Addams' inflated sense of his own importance will be pandered to quite the same.

[nonymouse]

Many moons ago I temped for a company that sold instructional DVDs for people training to be pilots. One of the tedious admin tasks I had to do was to trawl eBay for people selling second-hand copies of these DVDs and have them removed via the Vero programme. It was all totally ridiculous - these weren't counterfiets or illegal copies people were selling - they were used DVDs (the course lasted a year, after that, the person was a trained pilot and didn't need the DVD any more) but no, they had to be removed. Basically, eBay will remove anything you tell them to, whether Trading Standards or Copyright Law would consider it OK or not!

[danielr]

Thank you hightail. If Trading Standards tell me that it is legal I am interested to know how eBay can use Vero to overcome this. I am not sure it can be both legal and illegal at the same time.

ebay are free to dictate what can be sold on their site...

 

they have a large selection of banned items, that you'd be free to buy in a high street shop, free to sell in a high street shop, or at a car boot sale, but cannot be listed on ebay.

 

it's yours, you have a right to sell it, that doesn't mean that you have a right to list it on ebay if ebay don't want you to.

[qa19]

hi I've been looking at this Ebay Vero with interest as I did a report on software resales last year. Is this illegal under the first sales doctrine act or is it a case of E-Bay abusing their global power and saying it's our website we do what we want?

To be honest I'm quite appalled at this not only is it grossly unfair for an original owner to have these powers at the end of the day it simply amounts to price fixing by killing the second hand market.

[Whatever_next]

hi I've been looking at this Ebay Vero with interest as I did a report on software resales last year. Is this illegal under the first sales doctrine act or is it a case of E-Bay abusing their global power and saying it's our website we do what we want?

To be honest I'm quite appalled at this not only is it grossly unfair for an original owner to have these powers at the end of the day it simply amounts to price fixing by killing the second hand market.

 

Trading Standards assured me there was no law that could prevent me selling my CDs if I was the owner of a legitimately bought copy but there also is no law to say that Ebay cannot introduce whatever rules the management likes. Seems a bit strange to me but who am I to argue?

 

As you say, this guy is killing the secondhand market. He does it by putting "the frighteners" on legitimate secondhand sellers. There are many well know Craft CDs being sold on Ebay with no trouble. He says he belongs to VeRo but I cannot see him on the list, though I do believe it is possible for him not to appear on it if he so requests. I might just email eBay and ask if they can tell me if he is a member. I rather suspect I shall be told that information is covered by the Data Protection Act. No win situation!

[qa19]

I've been reading more about it and found he's abusing his power. Vero is there to protect owners from fake, pirated or licenced products and not legitmate CDs like yours. You can put in a counter claim to ebay and mention he is abusing his membership if he even has one.

This seems to be ebays fault as theyre removing items without even checking whether it's legit ot not.

[ashmk]

At the end of the day its ebay's site and ebay's rules if they dont want you selling something on their site then they have every right to remove it regardless to what the copyright law says.

[Whatever_next]

qa19

 

This is a reply written by his wife when questioned about this problem.

 

Hello,

Thank you for your reply.

Whenever we are alerted to any of our Cds being resold on E Bay I always write to advise the listers that they are in breach of not only our Terms and Conditions which are written on the covers, the seals and on the newest Cds the actual cds themselves but that they are in breach of E Bays own rules by listing software that they have not written. ( They do not own the Intellectual Property only the licence to use the software, not to sell it.)

This is because the laws covering software are different from other items as it can be copied or down loaded and resold as new over and over again.

If this is allowed to happen unpoliced by E Bay's VeRO department then not only would they become a market place for pirate copies but small software writers will be put out of business.

I trust this explains why I wrote to you.

Kind regards,

Beverley Addams

 

- robaddams-papercrafts

[qa19]

I was looking on their website and all it says is that you can't sell these CDs on. There is no specific EULA and no where does it say that you are purchasing a one user license for this product only. It's against the law for them to sell a product with restrictions on its resale. What does it say on the EULA on the CD cover?

I suspect they're trying it on in the hope nobody seriously challenges them.

[Whatever_next]

qa19 - There is no EULA on the CD cover (which is only a soft polythene sleeve) or the CD itself. Though I believe the newer CDs have something on the CD itself.

[qa19]

then it's against the law the proprty is yours and they can't tell you what to do with it but then ebay will always be on their side so you're screwed unless you take them to court about it. I would email them stating that they're breaking the law, show them pictures of any casing and CD you have and quote the first sale doctrine and some of the court orders against companies who try to restrict sales of their products.

 

It's a shame people are able to abuse laws that are brought in to protect them against piracy or fakes. More and more companies are putting these ridiculous licencing agreements on their goods in the hope they can control the second hand market but recent court orders have said it's unlawful.

[ashmk]

Id upload it to a torrent site so people can get it for free out of spite.

[EbenezerTwist]

qa19 - There is no EULA on the CD cover (which is only a soft polythene sleeve) or the CD itself. Though I believe the newer CDs have something on the CD itself.

 

 

If the take down notice was MC019, you can appeal that. You would more or less quote what you said here.

[DanAoS]

I stumbled across this topic while searching for more information about Robert Addams, my wife received an email via eBay from his wife today because she is selling 3 of the Robert Addams CD-ROMs that her mum no longer wants.

 

I've dug around and as far as I can tell while eBay can remove the item given that they control the site, Mr & Mrs Addams cannot legally enforce this due to UK and EU copyright law and the EU software directive 2009/24/EC (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:111:0016:0022:EN:PDF) under Article 4.2, which is the EU equivalent of the US "first sale doctrine". Once the item has been sold to an end user the copyright holder can no longer restrict the sale of that item (they can excercise their right to prevent unauthorised hiring or copying, but not restrict the sale of the original item itself) to anyone else within the EU.

 

My wife has sent them a reply pointing out that under UK and EU law their "no resale" restriction is unenforceable, and possibly illegal. The UK copyright law summaries I've gone through don't list resale as an act that a copyright holder can enforce, and I've spent enough time in the past few years having to dig through legal documents during my work for an online book retailer (I've had to memorise most of the Distance Selling Regulations for instance, and copyright issues pop up a lot), but I'm wondering if I've missed something, or are the Papercraft terms and the strong arm tactics of the Addams' without any substance?

 

As it is for the sake of 3 CD-ROMs I'm not sure it's worth the hassle to pursue this any further, we'll probably just go and sell the CDs on another site, and from the email we've had from Mrs Addams it seems that they're only interested in blocking sales on eBay, but I guess I do have a habit of taking things like this to heart and I think I might just try to appeal it if eBay use Vero to pull these items off given that it's supposed to be used to prevent the sale of counterfeit items.

Edited July 22, 2010 by DanAoS

[qa19]

It's ridiculous that Ebay are allowing other countries (ie mainly the USA) to abuse these rules. This is why monopoly is so bad. Ebay as a world wide gateway and sellers monopolising second hand sales through abuse of copyright laws. The perfect scenario.

I think the government and EU really needs to address this problem and protect service providers more.

[electron99]

As always, Google is the consumers best friend.

 

Do not buy any craft C.D's from Robert Addams.

[newmoses]

EBID, SPECIALIST AUCTIONS, CQOUT, AND IOFFER ALL ALLOW REPLICAS, FAKES, COPIES ETC.wHAT A PITY NONE ARE BIG ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH EBAY HEAD ON.EBID COME OUT TOPS THOUGH.