Sheriff puts Bank of Scotland to proof on bank charges

[rdm2006]

see for eg the 'Examples' under the cca itself.

also, see the 'new' rules under the consumer credit regulation(s) (SI) 2010.

imo

 

see post 1108 (below)

 

Sorryn that was a joke hence the

[Guest]

crossed wires maybe! am suggesting that a current account o/d is subject to the cca! to a certain extent!

Edited March 23, 2011 by Ford
typ

[rdm2006]

crossed wires maybe! am suggesting that a current account is subject to the cca! to a certain extent!

 

 

The banks did try to say they were not and therefore not covered by the CCA but there is a case on here (debt collection industry I think) where a Judge ruled that they are when o/d

[Guest]

The banks did try to say they were not and therefore not covered by the CCA but there is a case on here (debt collection industry I think) where a Judge ruled that they are when o/d

 

as posted, the cca itself provides examples of an o/d being subject to the cca. the 'new' rules go further and suggest that an 'agreement' may be required in any event, though is not retrospective.

imo

[rdm2006]

Total charge for credit

4.—(1) The total charge for credit which may be provided under an actual or prospective

consumer credit agreement shall be the total cost of credit to the debtor determined in accordance

with the requirements in paragraphs (2) to (5) below.

 

(2) Subject to paragraph (3), the following costs shall be included in the total cost of credit to

the debtor—

 

(a) the costs of maintaining an account recording both payment transactions and drawdowns;

 

(b) the costs of using a means of payment for both payment transactions and drawdowns;

 

© other costs relating to payment transactions.

 

(3) The costs at paragraph (2) shall not be included in the total cost of credit to the debtor where—

 

(a) the opening of the account is optional and the costs of the account have been clearly and

separately shown in the consumer credit agreement or in any other agreement made with

the debtor; having an overdraft facility has not been optional until recently

 

(b) in the case of an overdraft facility the costs do not relate to that facility.

 

(4) Costs in respect of an ancillary service shall be included in the total cost of credit to the debtor

if the conclusion of a service contract is compulsory in order to obtain the credit or to obtain it on the terms and conditions marketed.

 

Gobbledygook at its best

Edited March 23, 2011 by rdm2006

[Bigdebtor]

RDM

 

Thanks for that "clarification" :???:. I see paragraph 2 is subject to paragraph 3 which clarifies paragraph 2 which is subject to paragraph 3 which clarifies paragraph 2...and so on..... I DO see that. What I DON'T see is what the heck it all MEANS!

 

How ELSE does a Current Account provide CREDIT other than via an OVERDRAFT? Personal and Term Loans tend to be totally seperate accounts. How on earth does that lot comply with the previous Unfair Contract Terms Act or the newer CPUTR 2008?

 

However I must take issue with your final comment....

 

This is surely gobbledegook at its WORST???? - Written to confuse, convolute, connive and conspire to deprive us of our hard earned cash - in fact most words beginning with CON!

 

BD

 

PS - Surprised today is not a Bank Holiday given it's their Patron Saint Houdini's 137th birthday.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Bigdebtor

[bustthematrix]

CCA applies...when they want it to, and it doesn't when they don't. As I said, if the PTBs were thinking and talking straight, the banksters would have got their backsides whooped...

 

Justice requires truth and where's there's little or no truth, there can't be justice!

[means2anend]

The banks did try to say they were not and therefore not covered by the CCA but there is a case on here (debt collection industry I think) where a Judge ruled that they are when o/d

 

Can you find that case Rdm...it could explain alot!

 

rgds

m2ae

Edited March 24, 2011 by means2anend
spelling-expalin to explain

[Peterbard]

HI

It’s a bit off topic but.

Overdrafts have always been subject to the Consumer Credit Act as they are running account credit.

They do not have to have a separate agreement however as they are exempted from compliance with part V of the act.

To qualify for this exemption the bank has to give written notice of the interest and terms that will be applied to the overdraft.(section 74)

The European Directive which was implemented in the most part on February the first this year introduced extra requirements regarding notification of interest rates etc to be included in the original agreement, regarding overdraft facilitates

Peter

[means2anend]

HI

It’s a bit off topic but.

Overdrafts have always been subject to the Consumer Credit Act as they are running account credit.

They do not have to have a separate agreement however as they are exempted from compliance with part V of the act.

To qualify for this exemption the bank has to give written notice of the interest and terms that will be applied to the overdraft.(section 74)

The European Directive which was implemented in the most part on February the first this year introduced extra requirements regarding notification of interest rates etc to be included in the original agreement, regarding overdraft facilitates

Peter

 

Hi Peter...yes I would for the most part agree with you ..and have observed that...most companies reply with this statement;’

 

there is no need for us to provide a copy of your credit agreement under the CCA for Current Accounts and Overdraft Facilities, as Part V of the CCA does not apply to these types of accounts’ The exclusion of Current Accounts falling into Part V of the CCA set out in section 74(1) (b)’’

 

 

I for my part have observed that...

Section77/78 is not a matter from which credit agreements are excluded from as this provision falls within Part V1 of CCA 1974.Furthermore this fact is further reinforced within the provisions ITSELF.See SS3 (1)) a) (b) and (5) below.May I also draw your attention to

Section: 9 Meaning of Credit and Section: 16 Exempt Agreements. Furthermore, the Consumer Credit (EU Directive) Regulations 2010/1010 implementing 2008/48/EC and Consumer Credit (Amendment) Regulations 2010/1969 implementing and subsequently amending SI 2010/1010 recognise that such agreements are regulated credit agreements.

 

S: 77/78 Duty to give information to debtor under fixed-sum/running account credit agreement.

.........

(3)Subsection (1) does not apply to—

a) an agreement under which no sum is, or will or may become, payable by the debtor, or

b) a request made less than one month after a previous request under that subsection relating to the same agreement was complied with.

(5)This section does not apply to a non-commercial agreement.

rgds

m2ae

Edited March 24, 2011 by means2anend
Edited text to smaller font...text was too large giving impression I was 'shouting'

[Peterbard]

Hi Peter...yes I would for the most part agree with you ..and have observed that...most companies reply with this statement;’

 

there is no need for us to provide a copy of your credit agreement under the CCA for Current Accounts and Overdraft Facilities, as Part V of the CCA does not apply to these types of accounts’ The exclusion of Current Accounts falling into Part V of the CCA set out in section 74(1) (b)’’

 

 

I for my part have observed that...

Section77/78 is not a matter from which credit agreements are excluded from as this provision falls within Part V1 of CCA 1974.Furthermore this fact is further reinforced within the provisions ITSELF.See SS3 (1)) a) (b) and (5) below.May I also draw your attention to

Section: 9 Meaning of Credit and Section: 16 Exempt Agreements. Furthermore, the Consumer Credit (EU Directive) Regulations 2010/1010 implementing 2008/48/EC and Consumer Credit (Amendment) Regulations 2010/1969 implementing and subsequently amending SI 2010/1010 recognise that such agreements are regulated credit agreements.

 

S: 77/78 Duty to give information to debtor under fixed-sum/running account credit agreement.

.........

(3)Subsection (1) does not apply to—

a) an agreement under which no sum is, or will or may become, payable by the debtor, or

b) a request made less than one month after a previous request under that subsection relating to the same agreement was complied with.

(5)This section does not apply to a non-commercial agreement.

rgds

m2ae

 

Hi

With respect this was not an opinion it is the regulation.

 

The reply you quoted illustrates this in that they of course cannot send a copy of an agrteement that does not exist.

 

Section 77-79 requests cannot be honoured on an overdraft because there is no agreement to copy.

 

Peter

[means2anend]

'Section 77-79 requests cannot be honoured on an overdraft because there is no agreement to copy.'

 

pls expalin

rgds

m2ae

[Peterbard]

'Section 77-79 requests cannot be honoured on an overdraft because there is no agreement to copy.'

 

pls expalin

rgds

m2ae

 

HI

I first researched this in 06 this was a leltter i recieved from the OFT it explains the situation better than me .

 

 

Dear Mr Bardsley

CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 (the Act)

Thank you for your emails of 15 March 2007, concerning overdrafts, and of 22 March 2007, concerning credit card agreements, which have been passed to me to reply. I apologise for the delay in replying.

I should note that unfortunately the Office of Fair Trading (the OFT) cannot comment on or intervene in individual matters. This is because such actions fall beyond the remit of the OFT and because the OFT cannot be aware of all of the relevant information in each instance. Similarly, the OFT cannot comment or express a view on particular practices, save where the OFT has considered a practice in the round and its view is in the public domain. The following points are therefore general in nature.

Overdrafts are normally not subject to those elements of the Act governing form and content of an agreement. This is because the OFT has issued a Determination under Section 74(3) of the Act excluding overdraft agreements from the need to comply. As a result of this there is usually no written agreement that a consumer can request under Section 78 of the Act. However, I should note that any Bank wishing to avail itself of the benefit of the Determination must notify the OFT of its intention to do so and is required to provide information to the prospective debtor. Specifically, the creditor must provide, in writing, at the time the agreement is concluded or before details of the credit limit if any, the annual rate of interest and any charges available, and the process for terminating the agreement. Typically banks make such information readily available via a variety of media on an ongoing basis.

 

Peter

[rdm2006]

If I remember correctly it says that they are exempt from providing an agreement but they are still a credit agreement in all other respects but i will try to find it

[rdm2006]

Can you find that case Rdm...it could explain alot!

 

rgds

m2ae

 

 

it is either in here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?171037-Multiple-agreements-falling-within-section-18-CCA-1974

 

or here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?105315-Is-My-Agreement-Enforceable-Useful

 

Both are very long threads so i will let you make it a bit of light reading before you go to bed lol

[Peterbard]

it is either in here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?171037-Multiple-agreements-falling-within-section-18-CCA-1974

 

or here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?105315-Is-My-Agreement-Enforceable-Useful

 

Both are very long threads so i will let you make it a bit of light reading before you go to bed lol

 

Hi

This may be a better bet

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?94575-CCA-and-Overdrafts-The-Final-

 

Peter

[rdm2006]

Hi

This may be a better bet

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?94575-CCA-and-Overdrafts-The-Final-

 

Peter

 

Yes I think thats it involving coutts.

 

Its me age lol, I remember seeing something but never where I saw it

[Peterbard]

If I remember correctly it says that they are exempt from providing an agreement but they are still a credit agreement in all other respects but i will try to find it

 

 

It says that overdrafts are exempt from Part V of the act . Part V of the act is the section that states the requiriments for form and content of the agreement. If the overdraft is exempt from these requirements it means that they do not have to produce a document,if a document does not have to be produced then it is difficult to produce a copy.

Yes all other of the sections of the act apply/

 

Petr

[means2anend]

Peter and rdm2006

Thanks to you both!

much appreciated and shall make the most of reading them...

 

rgds

m2ae:-)

[Peterbard]

It does make sense that there's no need for a standalone agreement for an overdraft for the purposes of the CCA, as the terms would already be in the current account contract. But of course only the overdraft terms of the contract apply to CCA.

 

I was just reading a recent Santader skeleton argument for a bank charge case which includes a defence to a challenge under the CCA which I'll try and post it up later.

 

Hi

 

Yes although of course the interest and also the repayment details (prescribed terms).etc would not be in the Bank contract, or at least not before the changes that have just been made due to the EU.

 

If it were not for the declaraition it would have embody all these terms on a sepperate agreement or fall foul of the provisions of section18( multiple agreements).

 

Some of us did try to gain advantage by requesting a copy of the letter stating the tems of the overdraft mentioned in the declaration. Unfortunatlely this failed because as you see from the OFT letter earlier in this thread, they decided that it was enough that the bank produced it on easily accessable media, (web page). I still do not agree that this was in the spirit of the declaration but there you go.

Peter

[means2anend]

YES makes perfect sense...A copy MUST still be sent UNLESS the DETERMINATION has been complied with..The form and substance that would have been required in PART V has now been required in the form as stated in the DETERMINATION.

 

I say that a copy must still be sent unless...because s77/78 are matters 'FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY'..... NOT FORM AND CONTENT that do not fall witihn PART V but DO FALL WITHIN PART VI..and so still apply

 

However UNLESS contemporary records are not kept it is hard to see how DETERMINATION can be retrospectively satisfied.

 

m2ae

[Guest]

here's a couple of brief examples/quotes of what has been said re the 'new' rules (not retrospective) and o/d's.

 

'Unsecured overdrafts. Non-business unsecured overdrafts will be subject to the requirements for both pre-contractual and contractual information although an overdraft can be arranged urgently without prior written information. Where a current account allows the account holder to overdraw without a pre-arranged overdraft, information about the charges must be included in the agreement. (Regulation 19 of the Directive).' mablaw.com

 

 

'Overdrafts now require the same pre-contract and agreement information as other agreements. Although as not all of the Articles are to apply it is to be ‘light touch’......'Since agreements will now have to be drawn up for overdrafts should you receive a request for a copy agreement for an overdraft executed after 12 May 2010 you will need to provide it.' csa-uk.com

[Peterbard]

YES makes perfect sense...A copy MUST still be sent UNLESS the DETERMINATION has been complied with..The form and substance that would have been required in PART V has now been required in the form as stated in the DETERMINATION.

 

I say that a copy must still be sent unless...because s77/78 are matters 'FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY'..... NOT FORM AND CONTENT that do not fall witihn PART V but DO FALL WITHIN PART VI..and so still apply

 

However UNLESS contemporary records are not kept it is hard to see how DETERMINATION can be retrospectively satisfied.

 

m2ae

 

Not sure how you would send a copy if the original has not been made.

Not sure why a bank would make an agreement if there was no requirement to do so.

77-79 are requessts for copy of the executed agreement, there is no executed agreement for information purposes or any other purposes.

 

We did this to death many years ago

 

Peter

[means2anend]

The type of agreements described as exempt...are exempt from the matters in PART V....s77/78 are matters within PART VI...

 

or have I misunderstood:|

 

m2ae

[means2anend]

Santander Skeleton re CCA.

 

Contador thanks but....

 

Unfortunately at Paragraph 20.5 the last sentence ..''The effect of this is addressed below''...AND THEN NOTHING!!!!

 

rgds

m2ae