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Bailliff warrant for a debt.. clamped car took list - i paid . changed his warrant to one for CTAX whilst here - all refund back now with the council **WON**


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If the bailiff has a WPO signed by me CAN he break into my house when I am not there to repossess? I.e. use a crow bar on a door or break windows to get in (all mine will always be locked and there is no way he can without doing either). I am under the impression he has to get a court order to "break in" or something like that

 

I don't think they need a court order i believe they do need permission from the council before they re-entry to remove goods listed on the WPA

 

and they would have to send you a letter giving you the time and date for the removal

if your were out on this date they would use a locksmith to enter the property they would not use a crowbar or break a window

 

There have been changes wrought by case law and also by amendments to the

Distress for rent Rules 1988 and Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement)

Regulations 1993 as follows.

p5 Forcing re-entry

The law upon the rights of bailiffs to force re-entry to premises in order to remove

goods previously seized has recently been clarified. In Khazanchi v Faircharm

Investments; McLeod v Butterwick [1998] 2 All ER 901 the Court of Appeal held that

bailiffs may only force re-entry where they are being deliberately excluded from

premises. It will thus be necessary in most cases for the bailiff to notify the debtor in

advance of the date and time of the visit in order to remove. If the debtor is then

absent from home, or refuses entry, force may be employed.

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Don't worry about 'formal'. One reason why I wanted to offer alternative letters for people is because I felt so many of the templates I've read are way too formal and formulaic. The last thing I would ever do in a letter of this nature is qoute the law or intimate that 'I know my rights'. I feel that, in the former, unless you really are conversant in the law then you leave yourself wide open to complex rebuttals and, for the latter, you've waving a red rag to the wrong bull.

I'd much rather, in the first instance, keep it simple, straightforward, informative.

Best wishes.

Rae.

Edited by RaeUK
Thanks for the clarification HW.
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Thanks hallowitch, for the clarification and confirmation.

 

Thanks kelcou, I know what you mean, not to overextend yourself so to speak but show resolve and that you know enough but not letting on how much, etc.

 

Thanks

Sew

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Hi Everyone, if I post (and remove personal details) my very awful "draft" complaint to the bailiff can I please get some feedback/suggested improvements on it.

 

Or alternatively do it by PM to those who offer just in case there are observers in here.

 

many thanks

Sew

Edited by sewingkit
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Hi Everyone, I thought I would post the complaint letter anyway. Any comments are gladly welcome.

 

Please excuse my lack of English/letter writing ability, best to get something down to kick off any improvements. I am just a bit unsure of the wording of some of the specific complaints and how to start/end and the length of time I give them.

 

I intend to send this tomorrow by 5pm as i want it with them by end of week. I am slightly concerned about a follow up visit by them.

 

I do still have the formal complaint with the CEO of the council being looked into as well on a separate track.

 

Many thanks

Sew

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Re: XXXXXX

 

I am writing to make a formal complaint about a number of errors made by your bailiff Mr XXXXX on the xxth February 2010 which broke the rules for seizure and/or standards of enforcement agents. He visited my property at approximately 3pm to recover unpaid council tax to XXXXX City Council.

 

The details of the above mentioned breaches are as follows:

 

  1. On at least 3 separate occasions during my conversations with him I stated that I was unemployed and on benefits, in fact he repeated it once in conversation. He should have taken note and acted accordingly and left and returned the cases to the appropriate councils.
     
  2. He could see that I was having a panic attack and asked me to calm down a number of occasions and even asked me to have a glass of water. He should have left and returned at later date or changed his threatening and intimidating manner. I believe he was in breach of his duty of care under any possible contract with the council. (This has been raised in a separate complaint to both relevant councils)
     
  3. On the 3 Walking Possessions Orders he (and the bailiff who joined him later) has listed the same items on each of the 3 forms. I believe this is illegal or at least in contravention of the rules for seizure. If you were to collect all the items on one and auction them how would you be able to collect them again on the other two for auction and subsequently pay to the creditor. I believe that at least two of the WPOs are null and void.
     
  4. On the three WPOs you have added the same set of charges on each WPO for one visit only. You cannot add charges 3 times for only one visit. Please bear in mind I have not gone through the computer screenshot you have sent me to check if you have done this before. This is also possibly illegal bordering on fraudulent at least a further contravention of the rules governing the seizure of goods and your own industry standards.
     
  5. A number of the items on the WPOs belong to the landlord of the house. I mentioned this to bailiff but got no reply. These items will not form any part of any levy. I am able to obtain a Statutory Declaration or Tenancy Agreement to prove this fact.
     
  6. On the Computer Screen-print provided by Ms XXXX in your office. There is no mention of Mr XXXX’ visit on the XXX July 2009 (I had kept the WPO). I found out that Mr XXXX was uncertificated at the time. His certificate ran out on the xxx July!!! I mentioned this to Mr xxxxxx and he said he had left your company. In fact this in untrue, after checking the register I have found out that he is still registered with your firm. So, I would like an explanation for why this is not on the history as I believe this is a further breach of your codes/ rules as mentioned above. I have a feeling that due to his very illegal levy that you somehow have not entered this on the records in the hope that it had been forgotten. I am sure that xxxx County court will have records of when Mr xxxx previous certificate ran out to further support this. I suspect that this omission from the record is a breach of the Data Protection act in some way.
     
  7. At least 3 of the items on the WPOs are broken (Gateway PC monitor, Epson printer and Coffee machine). These have no value whatsoever. I am under the impression that you should not be levying on broke items.

 

I feel that once Mr xxxxx realised that he was unable to levy upon my car and that his ability to get money for fees would be limited he proceeded with a threatening, bullying and intimidating manner to seek an alternative source of revenue for your company. It was absolutely clear that I had no money (due to being on benefits and unemployed) and I had to think for about an hour where to get some money. In the end I had to borrow £327 from 2 friends and my landlord to get him out of my house. Furthermore, the money he did get will only apply to the (questionable) fees and never end up with the creditor. The (remaining!) items on the WPO’s have such low pecuniary value so as not to make any dent whatsoever in the outstanding debts so as to be pointless. This is and all above points lead me to believe that all he was interested in was getting some money out of me, broken items, items not belonging to me, duplicated items, vulnerable status and not caring how he got it.

 

On a personal note, the visit left me shaken and physically sick. This has been compounded by the above discoveries with help from experienced people. The actions of Mr xxxx and therefore your company possibly also the council you represented were disgraceful. I will shortly be contacting my local newspaper, councillor and most importantly my local MP to offer him further data to support the regulation of bailiffs in the next 2 years as mentioned in the national press recently.

 

I would like this complaint to be investigated immediately and resolved as soon as possible. I expect a written answer within 14 days before further action is considered and/or taken.

 

Kind regards

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Had a quick tidy up ;) hope you didnt mind :)

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Re: XXXXXX

 

I am writing to make a formal complaint in regards to a number of errors made by your bailiff Mr XXXXX. On the xxth February 2010 at 3pm Mr XXXXX visited my property to recover monies for a liability order for unpaid council tax. It is on my understanding that your Bailiff Mr xxxxx did not adhere to The National Standards of Enforcement agents which is clearly set out for those who partake in these matters.

 

The details of the above breaches are as follows:

 

  1. On at least 3 separate occasions during my conversations with him I stated that I was unemployed and on benefits, in fact he repeated it once in conversation. He should have taken note and acted accordingly and left and returned the cases to the appropriate councils.
  2. He could see that I was having a panic attack and asked me to calm down a number of occasions and even asked me to have a glass of water. He should have left and returned at later date or changed his threatening and intimidating manner. I believe he was in breach of his duty of care under any possible contract with the council. (This has been raised in a separate complaint to both relevant councils)
  3. On the 3 Walking Possessions Orders he (and the bailiff who joined him later) has listed the same items on each of the 3 forms. I believe this is illegal or at least in contravention of the rules for seizure. If you were to collect all the items on one and auctionlink3.gif them how would you be able to collect them again on the other two for auction and subsequently pay to the creditor. I believe that at least two of the WPOs are null and void.
  4. On the three WPOs you have added the same set of charges on each WPO for one visit only. You cannot add charges 3 times for only one visit. Please bear in mind I have not gone through the computer screenshot you have sent me to check if you have done this before. This is also possibly illegal bordering on fraudulent at least a further contravention of the rules governing the seizure of goods and your own industry standards.
  5. A number of the items on the WPOs belong to the landlord of the house. I mentioned this to bailiff but got no reply. These items will not form any part of any levy. I am able to obtain a Statutory Declaration or Tenancy Agreement to prove this fact.
  6. On the Computer Screen-print provided by Ms XXXX in your office. There is no mention of Mr XXXX’ visit on the XXX July 2009 (I had kept the WPO). I found out that Mr XXXX was not certificated at the time. His certificate ran out on the xxx July!!! I mentioned this to Mr xxxxxx and he said he had left your company. In fact this in untrue, after checking the register I have found out that he is still registered with your firm. So, I would like an explanation for why this is not on the history as I believe this is a further breach of your codes/ rules as mentioned above. I have a feeling that due to his very illegal levy that you somehow have not entered this on the records in the hope that it had been forgotten. I am sure that xxxx county courtlink3.gif will have records of when Mr xxxx previous certificate ran out to further support this. I suspect that this omission from the record is a breach of the Data Protection act in some way.
  7. At least 3 of the items on the WPOs are broken (Gateway PC monitor, Epson printer and Coffee machine). These have no value whatsoever. I am under the impression that you should not be levying on broke items.

 

I feel that once Mr xxxxx realised that he was unable to levy upon my car and that his ability to get money for fees would be limited he proceeded with a threatening, bullying and intimidating manner to seek an alternative source of revenue for your company. It was absolutely clear that I had no money (due to being on benefits and unemployed) and I had to think for about an hour where to get some money. In the end I had to borrow £327 from 2 friends and my landlord to get him out of my house. Furthermore, the money he did get will only apply to the (questionable) fees and never end up with the creditor. The (remaining!) items on the WPO’s have such low pecuniary value so as not to make any dent whatsoever in the outstanding debts so as to be pointless. This is and all above points lead me to believe that all he was interested in was getting some money out of me, broken items, items not belonging to me, duplicated items, vulnerable status and not caring how he got it.

 

On a personal note, the visit left me shaken and physically sick. This has been compounded by the above discoveries with help from experienced people. The actions of Mr xxxx and therefore your company possibly also the council you represented were disgraceful. I will shortly be contacting my local newspaper, councilor and most importantly my local MP to offer him further data to support the regulation of bailiffs in the next 2 years as mentioned in the national press recently.

 

I would like this complaint to be investigated immediately and resolved as soon as possible. I expect a written answer within 14 days before further action is considered and/or taken.

 

Kind regards

  • Haha 1
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Hi Sean,

 

I was wondering if it was so bad people were ignoring it, :o :)

 

Thank you for your comments/changes, I think I will go with them. i useless with these sorts of things, writing how I talk as a lot of people do.

 

once again, thanks for the help

 

 

Regards

Sew

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Hi Sean,

 

I was wondering if it was so bad people were ignoring it, :o :)

 

Thank you for your comments/changes, I think I will go with them. i useless with these sorts of things, writing how I talk as a lot of people do.

 

once again, thanks for the help

 

 

Regards

Sew

welcome :) but im sure if Kel was here she would do a far better job than I ;)

but its a good letter, very informative, make sure you send a copy to the council as well as the bailiff company.

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Thanks, she does have a way with words.

 

I did thinking a copy to them but was not sure. Definitely will do now when I go into town later. I have the name of the person dealing with my formal complaint so will address direct to her and hand deliver with sig receipt.

 

All good fun in a way..... cant wait to see what i get back!

 

regards

Sew

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....loved every minute of it!

 

complaint now off to bailiff, cant wait for the reply!!

 

Thansk to everyone that has helped so far. It has really made a helluva difference to my handling this all. this site is truly wonderful and helpful.

 

Will keep you posted on responses, etc

 

Sew,

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Dont know if its worth mentioning it but when I was living with my (now ex) girlfriend back in 2000, she had a run in with the bailiffs over council tax arrears. Before I had moved in with her, they had already gained entry to her house by threatening her and she let them in. This all came out one tearful night when she confessed. I realised that they could now come in and remove stuff, which included my things as I had now moved in. A simple solution was that all of my property had a sticker affixed to it saying "property of , not to be removed without express permission." Did the same for the landlords items, such as the cooker and fridge.

 

We then drew up a bill of sale and she sold me her items (washer, TV, computer etc) for a nominal £10, so on went the stickers to all of those items. Photographs of all the items were taken with the 'property of ' stickers on them for our records. All jewlerry was removed to her mums house.

 

When the bailiffs showed up next time, there was literally nothing of value that was not owned by either the landlord or me. They found a flymo in the shed without a sticker on so took that.

 

Dont know if that would work nowerdays though, but it did at the time. Perhaps a sibiling or parent could 'buy' your things and affix stickers? Then sell you them back when its all over

Edited by shamen
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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Everyone,

 

been a while.....sorry, was waiting for replies and time to digest things more.

 

I've now had both replies back, one from the Bailiff and one from the Council (to my official complaint):

 

Bailiff reply:

 

Hilarious, to say the least, if you have read my letter above to them. they have actually not answered or just ignored some of my serious complaint points. It seems to have been written (thrown together) by a lower office clerk or someone not very experienced in complaints (perhaps a Form 4 will wake them up!), not signed by anyone. But it is long and I will digest and come back on here with more details asap.

 

Council reply:

 

Short and sweet, they have ignored my "vulnerable status" completely and given me there own "potentially" or "not relevant" interpretation of the standards paragraph and then said that they have had lengthy discussions with the bailiffs (I don't think they know the extent of how and the bailiff behaved even though I sent the council a copy of my bailiff complaint letter so they had an idea) and that as my complaint relates to their behaviour/issues that it will remain with the bailiff. not sure what that means.

 

So, I will come one with more details asap and then perhaps some of you helpful lot can suggest next course of action on both fronts. I was thinking of:

 

1. Another reply to council saying I am not satisfied and go to ombudsman/councillor, maybe local paper, etc. I am not sure on how they can ignore my status but i want to type the working on here for your thoughts, soon.

 

2. As for the bailiff letter. Not sure what to to do next. Their reply is a joke, perhaps they think I am not serious. I will take this all the way to court if I have too. Perhaps a more strongly worded reply stating their ignoring of some of my complaint points. I will post the wording on here tomorrow for your thoughts.

 

Speak soon,

Sew

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Ive come to the conclusion that this seems to be the norm, bailiff companies only answer what they want to and omit what they have done wrong and the councils seem to afraid to step up to the mark and take responsibility. I cant seem to work out at this stage who is pulling the strings and who are the puppets. Keep on complaining as the council will soon have to sit up and listen, if enough people complain about these muppets then some thing sooner or later preferably sooner, something will be done, lets hope who ever gets voted in will make a stand against these underhand tactics of these unscrupulous bailiffs and their puppets the councils. thats if I have got it right of course ;)

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....exactly. Sums it up completely Sean. I am quite patient in some respects and cant wait for them to get a dose of their own medicine, 2 years and hopefully it will be here, their days are numbered.

 

Over all this time since it happened the thing that grates/amazes/angers me at me the most is the bullying, and it was bullying! Think about that, I do, I know what bullying is and he acted like that.

 

I do not care what anyone says on here but I want him, them, to experience the same or similar, to they know what it feels like to experience something like what I had to endure. Why should I or anyone, have to put up with that behaviour from some sort of pseudo-official. If the judge was in the kitchen then he would have thrown him in jail.

 

Anyone, i will get off my high horse, lol.

 

I have paid money to the council direct by way of a payment card. I will not give any money to them. I rather they take my (costless) items then pay them a penny. As soon as I am working again I will make a beeline to the bankruptcy fee and hopefully that will teach them another lesson.

 

I am more confident now (thanks to the wonderful help from everyone on this site!) and slightly looking forward to their next visit, lol, good help 'em, I mean it.

 

Sew

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...I think it is time to get my local councillor involved. I now know who that is and will make the call tomorrow. See if she can talk some sense into anyone.

 

and my local paper if I feel it necessary, they may like the story.

 

Sew

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Hi sewingkit, nice to hear from you although not the best of news yet.

A week is a long time in politics. A fortnight is a lifetime on CAG!

I've skimmed back through the thread - apologies I answer quite a few threads and need to refresh my knowledge...

Council. I think you sent your own letter as opposed to my template, is that right? [No worries, I just hate my letters being dissed by lesser bureacrats such as those found on mere local councils...]. Did you address it to the CEO of the council and was it CLEARLY marked as a Formal Complaint? If not it was passed on or seen by a lesser bod and we need to rejig and send direct to the CEO.

If yes then I would write a short terse reply along the following lines:

 

Dear whatsit,

Thankyou for your response to my Formal Complaint [date and reference number].

I remain both surprised and disappointed that you appear to both support and actively endorse unprofessional and unethical behaviour by contractors you have responsibility for.

You will be fully aware of the National Standards for Enforcement Agents and their implications to your collecting agent. If you do not then you, too, are derelict in your duties.

If, as appears to be the case, you are unwilling to hold an objective investigation into the matter and, instead, prefer to contract untrained and unprofessional personell to act on your behalf, then you will leave me with no other option than to lodge a further complaint with the Local Authority Ombudsman and - after the appropriate date - my Member of Parliament.

Yours sincerely

Me.

 

Or somesuch...

 

Best wishes

Rae

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Hi Rae,

 

Good to hear from you.

 

Yes, to CEO and labelled Formal complaint.

 

Lady at council reception asked what it was concerning, I said C'Tax and bailiff action, she said OK (as if she knew or had experience in it before) and also that "I need to know because it has to go to the specific team/person" etc. I doubt for one minute the CEO will have anything to do with it ( I am sure my local councillor/ombudsman/MP will remind him somehow. So, yeah, ended up with a team of two people who I guess deal with these sorts of things, managerial I doubt but supervisory/technical (as I was when I dealt with Endowment Mortgage complaints decision making in the Financial services sector, similar thing I guess)

 

Thank you as always, EXACTLY what I wanted to say. Perfect reply for the council, I always want to be succinct and direct especially when I pay their wages and they work for me and I have done no wrong!

 

Now for the stupid dumb bailiffs, I mean that, they are stupid and dumb, all of them. I think I need to put more on here re: their reply as I think that needs to relate to how I am going to form either another (pointless reply) to them or a framework for a Form 4 complaint. I want that bailiff to lose his certificate.

 

watch this space..

 

I will draft your council reply up and get that off tomorrow.

 

Regards

Sew

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Just a further note. I've had to write a similar few paragraphs on burmafridays thread. And it occurred to me then that they may be trying to avoid treating the Formal Complaint as a, well, Formal Complaint!

From what you say, I would assume that the reception has intercepted the letter and passed it straight to the revenues department. Circumventing the logging procedure. Something to bring up with your councillor.

The reason we go on about it being clearly labelled 'Formal Complaint' and sent to the CEO is that these are the only complaints a council has to log for statistical purposes. So if some body or another enquired 'have you had any complaints about your collecting contractors?' it is the register of Formal Complaints that would be checked and the answer would be 'officially? a damn sight less than we've received...'

Just my view. If anyone knows better nows the time to jump in...

Best wishes

Rae

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This was the last paragraph of burma's which you might like to use:

 

I trust that you have duly noted and logged my complaint as being a Formal Complaint for statistical purposes. I request confirmation of this as you leave me with no further option than to pursue this matter with the Local Authority Ombudsman and - at the appropriate date - my Member of Parliament.

 

I bet any money you like that if you identify the CEO, locate him in person, hand him your original complaint and say 'seen this?' the answer will be 'er...no'...

Best wishes

Rae.

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rae,

 

i have sent the reply to the council as per your suggestions with it amended to relate to the letter too. Looked good indeed, thanks.

 

I emailed it and will follow up with post.... time to call councillor!

 

regards

Sew

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Had confirmation that the complaint has gone to stage two of their corporate complaints procedure and is now with the Head of Treasury Services!

 

I am to expect a reply by the 13th of May (!).....

 

----------------------------------

 

Now for dealing with those pesky bailiffs....

 

Onwards and upwards.

 

Sew

Edited by sewingkit
got month wrong!!!
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