Railcard Penalty Fare Fun

[Mouton22]

Hello all, another story of over-zealous ticket inspectors.

 

I booked and paid for my train tickets two days in advance of travelling. The tickets were slightly discounted as I have a 16-25 Railcard which was valid at the time of travel.

 

On the day of the journey I put my Railcard in my bag, collected the tickets and boarded the correct train. When the First Capital Connect guard came to check my tickets I duly gave them to him. However, I couldn't find the Railcard and so he presented me with a £40 penalty notice. I couldn't understand it but thought the Railcard must have fallen out of my bag or been stolen.

 

Typically, minutes later I found the Railcard in my bag so that when I made my onward journey via tube and another rail company I had no problems. I've appealed the charge (providing a copy of my Railcard) but they've said the charge still stands on the grounds that I failed to produce adequate documentation.

 

I can see their point and although my intentions were not to deceive I suppose PFAS'd rather assume that they were.

 

But surely £40 is out of proportion with my crime of being (temporarily) disorganised?

 

I feel especially disheartened as I've travelled for years with a Railcard and never forgotten it once! Any advice?

Edited February 4, 2010 by Mouton22
clarification

[sailor sam]

Did he not give you time to look for it?

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[Mouton22]

Not much. The train was just pulling into London and once it stopped we were told to get off (guard included) as the train had to do a quick turn-around. He actually issued the notice to me on the platform.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Mouton22

[timbo58]

Appeal this to the tocs prosecutions department, but they may not believe you unless you have staff witness you had the railcard at the time and you have their names and they are willing to verify this.

 

You got the PF for not showing a validating document when required to do so, a strict liability offence of not being able to show a valid ticket in a restricted area.

It's not an accusation of fare evasion, it's a penalty for not being able to show a valid ticket at the time.

 

Unless you can prove to the prosecutions department that you had the railcard at that time they won't waive it.

[sailor sam]

Its a pity the gaurd couldn't give you the oppotunity to search your bag thourghly on the platform. As Timbo correctly points out, the T & C's in relation to rail cards are pretty robust and normally strictly enforced. Your ticket is invalid unless you can produce the card when requested.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[oscar21]

Sorry, not very constructive but why would anyone travel by public transport nowadays. What other company treats its customers like the enemy. Best solution would be to rip up the railroads and convert them to motorways.

[timbo58]

most railways aren't wide enough to convert to motorways.

and would not carry the number of cars which would be needed to replace trains: and they are not railroads -those are american.

[SRPO]

Hello all, another story of over-zealous ticket inspectors.

 

I agree, he should have known you were obviously not a fare evader.

[Old-CodJA]

Hello all, another story of over-zealous ticket inspectors.

 

I booked and paid for my train tickets two days in advance of travelling. The tickets were slightly discounted as I have a 16-25 Railcard which was valid at the time of travel.

 

On the day of the journey I put my Railcard in my bag, collected the tickets and boarded the correct train. When the First Capital Connect guard came to check my tickets I duly gave them to him. However, I couldn't find the Railcard and so he presented me with a £40 penalty notice. I couldn't understand it but thought the Railcard must have fallen out of my bag or been stolen.

 

Typically, minutes later I found the Railcard in my bag so that when I made my onward journey via tube and another rail company I had no problems. I've appealed the charge (providing a copy of my Railcard) but they've said the charge still stands on the grounds that I failed to produce adequate documentation.

 

I can see their point and although my intentions were not to deceive I suppose PFAS'd rather assume that they were.

 

But surely £40 is out of proportion with my crime of being (temporarily) disorganised?

 

I feel especially disheartened as I've travelled for years with a Railcard and never forgotten it once! Any advice?

 

This does appear somewhat harsh, but I understand that the breach of conditions is absolute if read in conjunction with the Byelaws

 

Nonetheless, I think you have been harshly treated

 

The amount of the penalty isn't negotiable though. The rules state it will be the greater of a minimum of £20 or twice the single fare for the journey being made. If they have asked for £40 then the notice suggests that single fare must have been £20.

 

For future reference, if you had taken your railcard, together with the notice and explained there and then at the booking office on the station when you discovered it a few minutes after the chap who issued the notice had gone, the penalty could have been cancelled straight away.

 

I'd appeal to the Independent Penalty Fares Appeal Service if I were you

[RPI]

Sorry, not very constructive but why would anyone travel by public transport nowadays. What other company treats its customers like the enemy. Best solution would be to rip up the railroads and convert them to motorways.

Oh dear, there's always one clever cloggs isn't there.

[Old-CodJA]

In this particular OPs case, it does seem that he was hard done by and that the matter could have been resolved much more easily

 

However, then you get ridiculous comments from those such as oscar21.

 

Railways revenue staff are out there for very good reason, because believe it or not, you just cannot trust everyone to be honest in this world.

 

It might come as a surprise Oscar, but substantial numbers, not all, people do try to travel without paying.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how many travellers who haven't paid their fare and who have gone out of their way to avoid it, still seem to think that they are 'customers' and expect to be treated as such. Customers are people who have paid the correct charge due for something, whether product or service, and in the latter case, they deserve to be looked after well accordingly.

 

When travelling on a train, the law prescribes that we are either 'travellers' or 'passengers'.

 

We become customers only when we have paid the fare and therefore hold an express contract (a ticket) or, intend to pay on arrival at the railway and before commencing our journey therefore having an implied contract.

 

If society didn't have so many people trying to avoid paying, maybe things wouldn't be as bad as they are. Nationwide it's reckoned that only around 3.5% of travellers who travel without tickets. About 2.75% deliberately attempt to avoid fares, but when you consider how many millions of passenger journeys are made annually, it is clear that a huge sum of money is being stolen.

 

You can't steal from to road transport network to the same extent. You have to pay for the fuel before travelling in order to move your vehicle. When you get stopped for no road fund licence try telling the Police 'My mate has it'. What happens if you try to get a taxi or bus without paying?

 

I'm not suggesting that everything would be 'all rosy in the garden' if all that money owing to railways were recovered, but it would certainly make a difference and it's certainly a lot more environmentally freindly than more of our countryside ripped up and littered with noisy, polluting and accident ridden race-tracks.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[Southern Guard]

would be funny to see a motorway going through London Victoria or London Bridge lol

[gugisingh]

I have been reading the forums and I am need of some help (real bad).

I made a terrible mistake whereby I bought a ticket from Kings Cross to St Albans at a gold card rate. I was caught by the revenue inspector and said I was a gold card member but had lost my 2010 card. I was previously a gold member for over 5 yrs but decided not to renew end of Jan this year due to me moving. Whilst there was another person on the train who didn't have a ticket he was fined £20 I somewhat pointed that out to the inspector. I guess he didn't like me...In the end the inspector had to check my records and I had to confess that I lied to him and the company. He took the statement down. I did not pay the £20 even though I was willing to do so as I was desperate to get home

FCC wrote to me and I wrote back to them (see below)

I have been commuting regularly between Kings Cross and St. Albans with First Capital Connect trains for the last 7 years and until recently, a gold card member for almost five years.

On 28th August I was in a rush to get back to St. Albans due to a family emergency and by habit quickly purchased the ticket at a gold member rate. Although this slip in concentration serves as no excuse I explained to the ticket inspector that I would be willing to pay the full fare and any fine. This was however declined. Furthermore, whilst on board the ticket inspector fined another passenger £20 for not having a ticket at all - worse for your company from revenue perspective than purchasing a ticket at 80% full price. However, it appears that your inspector wanted to impose upon me a more severe fine. I would urge you to consider the consistency of how the rules are applied and fairness of this.

I trust that as a company you value repeat business - in the last five years, I have spent nearly £10000 and would hope that you could reward my loyalty with settling this matter without progressing to the magistrates court, a costly and time consuming affair for all parties concerned. In lieu of this I would be happy to pay the full train fare cost, and/or any administration charges to close the issue swiftly.

I implore you show some leniency and once again apologize for any inconvenience caused

Only today did FCC write back saying they will forward the case (to Court).I've left them a message to call me (twice).

I am really worried as I have a good career, never had a criminal record... but have admitted that I was wrong.

What are my next steps? I've read the forums and there are similiar cases but really need some advice about next steps of what I should do/ expect from FCC?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

[Old-CodJA]

Firstly, you really need to put out of your mind any thought that the issue of a Penalty Fare to another traveller has any bearing on your case. What you probably don't know is what reason the other traveller had for not having a ticket and each case is dealt with on it's own merit.

 

From your own admission, you are guilty of the more serious offence of 'Fare Evasion'. You state above that 'in the end I had to confess that I lied to him and the company'

 

What you need to concentrate on is apologising for your actions, expressing remorse and making clear to FCC that you ask if they will allow this matter to be settled by you paying an administrative penalty in order to maintain your good name. Put this in writing immediately and address it to the FCC Prosecution Mahager, explaining that a conviction for an offence of this type would be disproportionately damaging to your career and offer to pay the fukll fare for the journey that you had made plus their reasonable costs incurred in recovering it.

 

Remember, they do not have to say yes, but by sticking to the facts of your actions and showing remorse, you are much more likely to get a sympathetic hearing.

 

I always advise that you should do this in writing for very good reason. If they say no, you may go to Court and plead guilty, taking with you a copy of your letter showing that you have made every effort to apologise and to atone for your silliness.

[gugisingh]

Thank you for this, I will write another apology letter.

 

Realistically what are my chances of them accepting? and what is the worse case scenario if it ends in court?

[Old-CodJA]

Realistically, if your letter is as well written as your posting here suggests it will be and you stick to the facts of your incident I'd say it is better than 50/50

 

Worst case scenario, you get a Summons alleging that you did intend to avoid a rail fare contrary to Sect.5.3.a of The regulation of Railways Act (1889)

 

You plead guilty with the mitigation that you had always held a GoldCard in the past, but did not have one this time, it was a first and regretted error of judgement and you have since tried to mitigate this by offering to pay the fare and any costs incurred by the rail company.

 

If you get an unsympathetic Court you would expect a fine, which could be anywhere between very little and £175 if you are on average earnings, you could be ordered to pay prosecution costs (maybe up to £100 or so, but likely to be less for a guilty plea with evidence of the attempt to offer settlement) compensation of the single fare avoided and a victim surcharge of £15.00

 

.