Redcats Catalogue Company - No Signed Credit Agreement - Next step!

[morphette]

The Story so far...Debt Managers have sent a letter stating I have an outstanding debt with Redcats Uk for one of their catalogues (Vertbaudet) owing £187. I sent Debt managers a request for signed creidt agreement and £1 as per the standard letters shown on this forum. Redcat responded with an unsigned photocopy of the agreement so I sent Debt Manager a letter stating that they and their client Redcats had failed to supply a signed true copy of an agreement and therefore this was unenforceable.

This morning I receive a lengthy letter from Redcat. Opening sentence states that they do not hold a signed credit agreement on file but then they state that this was most likely because they sent it to me and I never returned it to them. It then goes on and on about how even though they do not have a signed copy on their file the debt is still enforceable. Also they argue that even if it is not signed they can argue in court that an agreement does exisit between us. They also advise that they will not remove any defaults from any credit agency and that I must make payment immediately. They also enclosed a sheet about credit agrements data sharing from the Information Commisioners Office where it states that companies like this can still share data about credit agreements.

 

So ineffect I now don't know what to do....any help greatly appreciated. What is the content for my next letter that I should send them or do I again send it to Debt Managers who seem to just pass it back to Redcats even though Debt Managers were the ones chasing me for payment???

[Bazooka Boo]

Well if they don't have one on file, then I would withhold payment until they can come up with one, if at all!

 

Just send them the account in dispute letter, if not done so already, and wait for their continued deforestation to land on your doormat.

[morphette]

Well if they don't have one on file, then I would withhold payment until they can come up with one, if at all!

 

Just send them the account in dispute letter, if not done so already, and wait for their continued deforestation to land on your doormat.

 

Thanks for that but Redcats (not debt managers) have responded to the dispute letter (3 pages quoting loads of legal stuff mainly about liability and that they believe that whether they have a signed doc or not that legally there was an agreement between us- however they do not send any statements as requested to show this!)

 

So do I again send the same dispute letter to Redcats or to Debt Managers who were the ones that opened this can of worms as Redcats never chased me for the repayment on this catalogue account. Debt managers last letter just stated that they were passing on my dispute letter to Redcats which they obviously have done so hence Redcats reply.They have responded within the 12 days etc timescale with a 3 page explanation as to why they believe it is enforceable and can be listed legally on credit files etc and that they can still request payment. Surely now I must complain to the OFT or something like that? The dispute letter will just contain the same old info that I sent recenty.

[cerberusalert]

Send them this;

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

 

Account no

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated ........, the contents of which are noted

 

Your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On ......... I requested that ........... supply me a copy of the credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date ........... have failed to comply with my request. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to .............., nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

 

Clearly as no agreement was supplied on request, this in no way complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in S.78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

 

To clarify S.61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced..

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as ............... become compliant with my request. As ................ are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect

 

All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file

All collection activities cease with immediate effect until ............. comply with my request from .date........... or such time as a court makes an enforcement order

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on Debt Collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

 

Regards

Print name do not sign

[Bazooka Boo]

These lot?

Redcats UK PLC, Bradford (Holdsworth Street)

 

Just lost 130 jobs!

[morphette]

These lot?

Redcats UK PLC, Bradford (Holdsworth Street)

 

Just lost 130 jobs!

 

 

Yep that's the one....Oh dear loss of jobs....wonder how many of their ex staff will get behind in their payments and start receiving nasty DCA letters through the post!! What goes around comes around I say!!

[The GodMother]

I had the verbadet ctalogue and when i challenged them they wrote it off. They have marked my credit file as settled aswell.

[morphette]

I had the verbadet ctalogue and when i challenged them they wrote it off. They have marked my credit file as settled aswell.

Dear Fairy Godmother....LOL xx

 

How did you challenge them? Just curious as I find the fact that they have replied with a 3 page essay quoting loads of legal section this and section that letter quite intimidating...I'm not bothered if it stayed on my credit file - my credit rating is shot to bits anyway but just wondering if I should pay them what I owe them or carry on fighting this!! It really does get me down at times!

[Bazooka Boo]

what you should bear in mind is that the reply you will have had, will have been the standard reply, and a computer generated one at that, I doubt anyone has really read your letter, least of all taken a blind bit of notice to it.

 

Pointless letting it worry you. What are they going to do? Make you sell your mother?

[morphette]

what you should bear in mind is that the reply you will have had, will have been the standard reply, and a computer generated one at that, I doubt anyone has really read your letter, least of all taken a blind bit of notice to it.

 

Pointless letting it worry you. What are they going to do? Make you sell your mother?

 

 

Don't think my mother would be worth much....LOL:p - That comment cheered me up!! Thanks....appreciate all your help!

[Bazooka Boo]

Don't think my mother would be worth much....LOL:p

 

She will be pleased to hear that!

[The GodMother]

I just done the same as u so far but l will check my records.

[nancymay]

hi i had the very same letter from redcats this morning i have a debt with laredoute i asked them for help as soon as realised i was going to be struggling but they did not want to know .i requested a copy of cca in july but still have not received one {i know i never signed one) .i'am not going to worry about it but what should i do next any help would be really grateful

[cerberusalert]

hi i had the very same letter from redcats this morning i have a debt with laredoute i asked them for help as soon as realised i was going to be struggling but they did not want to know .i requested a copy of cca in july but still have not received one {i know i never signed one) .i'am not going to worry about it but what should i do next any help would be really grateful

 

Send them the letter in post #4

[mestonian]

Hi all, im new to this site but ive got to say thanks for all the fantastic info!! (donation on the way!) Just to say this seems to be a current trend with redcats as i have this morning recieved the very same letter! The template in post #4 with be winging its way to them i think. Please update to see what they say!!

[mestonian]

Sorry, just to clarify the reply in post #4 mentions if they cannot supply a true signed copy of the cca but they clearly put in the first line of this letter, quote 'We have checked your account records and we do not hold your signed credit agreement on file.' Soooo what to reply to that?

[cerberusalert]

Leave the letter as it is, it's just reinforcing the fact that without a CCA they cannot take enforcement action.