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Full & Final Settlement Offers - Any Advice???


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Natalie

 

Halifax seems to be one of the most intransigent creditors re F&F. We are all keen to see how well you do with them.

 

BD

£50k saved and £7k charges refunded:

MBNA & A&L 35% F&F direct - saved £23k. Birmingham Midshires £1700 charges refunded

Abbey Loan/BCW 50% - saved £2k. Barclaycard/CSL 40% - saved £6k

Monument/DCA 35% - saved £1k. LTSB/Wescot 50% - saved £4k

HBOS Visa £5k charges refund via Blair Oliver Scott

RBS Direct Line/(genuine) solicitors June 2010 40% - saved £3k

Morgan Stanley/Aktiv Kapital £11k SB Nov 2010

Over £40k balance write off and charges refunds to fight for:

HBOS O/d Charges £5k. Egg Loan/Aktiv Kapital CCA Dispute £8k

Egg Card/Fredrickson taking £5 monthly but CCA & Charges Dispute £4k

Goldfish/1st Credit DN/TN Dispute £9k. Capital One/CSL charges claim £4k

Barclaycard/CSL taking £5 monthly on £10k debt

 

I hope I have helped - if I have please hit my star - and recognise the others who have helped too.

Bigdebtor

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Well, they have a choice, they can accept the offer and get some money.. or not accept it and not get any. They cant take me to court because of the lack of enforceable CCA.

If you find my post helpful please click on the scales at the top. Thank you

FAQ SECTION HERE

 

Halifax Bank Claim filed and settled

Halifax Credit Card settled

Argos Store Card settled

 

CCA requests sent to

Halifax Credit Card

LLoyds TSB Credit Card

Capital One

Moorcroft (Argos)

NDR

18/06/09

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Hi Nat. Thanks for your posts. Really interested to know how you get on with the Halifax. I have been trying but as BigD says they are not very easy to deal with. Like you I have a very dodgy unenforceable agreement but no DN yet. They are definitely very difficult to deal with.

 

I think the thing that swayed Crap1 was my medical report. I am also in correspondence (finally!) with MBNA who are making some of the right noises. From what I have read Crap1 and MBNA don't like dealing with people suffering mental health issues (depression, stress, anxiety etc) and have special depts. to deal with those clients.

 

Sharkleycard on the other hand are a proper set of ba****ds - the minute I told them about my health they passed the account to a DCA. Ba****ds!!!!

 

Hey hoe!!

Brooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooce's success's so far:

 

Capital One - 15% f & f saving £4,250

Barclaycard - 25% f & f saving £12,000

Blackhorse - reduced loan settlement saving £1,605

Cahoot - 15% f & f saving £2,740

MBNA - 20% f & f saving £26,800

Lloyds TSB 28% f & f saving £7,377

 

Total written off to date: £54,772!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Well, they have a choice, they can accept the offer and get some money.. or not accept it and not get any. They cant take me to court because of the lack of enforceable CCA.

 

How does the above work? I'm confused, if you're offering them money to settle are you accepting the debt as valid? thus negating any argrument you may have regarding the unenforceable CCA?

I reside in Dawlish Warren but am not a rabbit.

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Well DebT (I like that!)

 

Whether the paperwork is enforceable or not, the debt still remains it just gives you a bit more room for negotiating if they cannot take you to court, although they will threaten and in some cases do proceed to court.

 

Of course you then have the problem of what judge is there on the day and their interpretation of the CCA and it seems they favour the creditors some of the time.

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Well DebT (I like that!)

 

Whether the paperwork is enforceable or not, the debt still remains it just gives you a bit more room for negotiating if they cannot take you to court, although they will threaten and in some cases do proceed to court.

 

Of course you then have the problem of what judge is there on the day and their interpretation of the CCA and it seems they favour the creditors some of the time.

 

 

Alreet Dotty :D I would say that by 'negotiating' in the manner of 'you don't have an enforecable credit agreement but how much for you to go away' is a perfect gotcha clause for a creditor to go to court which when armed with the appropriate admittance of the debt and with a little gentle persuasion to the judge may obtain judgement.

I reside in Dawlish Warren but am not a rabbit.

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I think it rubs both ways - you refuse to acknowledge the debt, they take you to court, the judge says 'you had the money and spent it', you owe the money.

 

Here you admit the debt but point out to them and the judge (assuming you have been provided with an IEA) that its unenforceable due to non compliance with s.61 and then s.127(3) comes into play. The offer to settle is made on a without prejudice basis, just to avoid lengthy and costly litigation. You are not negating any argument about unenforceablility - the Courts want to see reasonable steps being taken to resolve disputes before you go to court.

 

If I was a judge I know which defence I'd be more receptive toward. In deed if you look at cases like Mitchell v HBOS there was no dispute he owed the money (they already had a CCJ for it) but it came down to an IEA.

Brooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooce's success's so far:

 

Capital One - 15% f & f saving £4,250

Barclaycard - 25% f & f saving £12,000

Blackhorse - reduced loan settlement saving £1,605

Cahoot - 15% f & f saving £2,740

MBNA - 20% f & f saving £26,800

Lloyds TSB 28% f & f saving £7,377

 

Total written off to date: £54,772!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Not at all, especailly if you mark any correspondence negotiating a settlement as "Without Prejudice"

 

My line is going to be

 

I do not acknowledge your debt, you have no enforceable CCA, you have issued a faulty DN and terminated the account. However, I would like to resolve this matter as quickly as possible. Therefore, I am offering you 5% of the alleged outstanding balance in f & f settlement. This is on condition of the following terms;

a) the account is closed and neither you nor anyone else will pursue me for any further payment.

b) the default is removed from my credit file

c) my credit file is amended to state settled.

 

This offer is not an acknowledgement of the debt and should not be seen or used as such. This offer is non-negotiable. If you wish to take advantage of this offer, I require written confirmation within 7 days accepting the offer including all conditions.

 

If you do not accept this offer, my position remains as before and I reject all claims of the alleged debt

 

 

Obviously I need to word it properly, but thats pretty much what I will be saying.

 

The one thing I have learnt from CAG is that YOU need to take control, negotiations are on YOUR terms not the bank's.

 

I dont particularly care either way whether they accept it or not. the debt is for around £700, the defaulted me a year ago, so I've got another 5 years for it to drop off my credit file and 4 for it to become SB. I'm guessing there will be correspondence back and forth for maybe another year.. them offering something different, me refusing it.. so then it will only be 3 years till SB. It would be useful if they accepted it, so that it would be out of the way, but its just a minor irritation rather than a worry these days.

If you find my post helpful please click on the scales at the top. Thank you

FAQ SECTION HERE

 

Halifax Bank Claim filed and settled

Halifax Credit Card settled

Argos Store Card settled

 

CCA requests sent to

Halifax Credit Card

LLoyds TSB Credit Card

Capital One

Moorcroft (Argos)

NDR

18/06/09

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Not at all, especailly if you mark any correspondence negotiating a settlement as "Without Prejudice"

 

My line is going to be

 

I do not acknowledge your debt, you have no enforceable CCA, you have issued a faulty DN and terminated the account. However, I would like to resolve this matter as quickly as possible. Therefore, I am offering you 5% of the alleged outstanding balance in f & f settlement. This is on condition of the following terms;

a) the account is closed and neither you nor anyone else will pursue me for any further payment.

b) the default is removed from my credit file

c) my credit file is amended to state settled.

 

This offer is not an acknowledgement of the debt and should not be seen or used as such. This offer is non-negotiable. If you wish to take advantage of this offer, I require written confirmation within 7 days accepting the offer including all conditions.

 

If you do not accept this offer, my position remains as before and I reject all claims of the alleged debt

 

 

Obviously I need to word it properly, but thats pretty much what I will be saying.

 

The one thing I have learnt from CAG is that YOU need to take control, negotiations are on YOUR terms not the bank's.

 

I dont particularly care either way whether they accept it or not. the debt is for around £700, the defaulted me a year ago, so I've got another 5 years for it to drop off my credit file and 4 for it to become SB. I'm guessing there will be correspondence back and forth for maybe another year.. them offering something different, me refusing it.. so then it will only be 3 years till SB. It would be useful if they accepted it, so that it would be out of the way, but its just a minor irritation rather than a worry these days.

 

 

At the end of the day the value of the debt will play heavily in favour of negotiation.It will cost more than £700 to take it to court and lose so it's a matter of playing a game of poker with them. They'll get fed up after a while, IF your agreement is truly unenforceable then let them take you to court, just be sure of yourself. The letters above look fine.

 

As for making an offer to settle meaning admitting to the debt I tend to agree with the latter opinion that it does nothing of the sort and this is two totally separate issues. Most of us admit to having had the money, that's not the issue, the issue is whether these things can be enforced when push comes to shove and for anyone who vyes on the side of the moral aspects of this, by all means pay, but remember these companies have teams of lawyers advising them on contracts and legal responsibilities of lending. Convert this £700 into a house/mortgage and they want to throw you on the streets as many of these companies do - then what if they have an unenforceable agreement? Do you take the moral line there or do you fight every which way you can to save it? I know what I would do (actually, that's exactly what I am doing :-D )

 

A1

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Not at all, especailly if you mark any correspondence negotiating a settlement as "Without Prejudice"

 

My line is going to be

 

I do not acknowledge your debt

 

I don't buy into that, you're acknowledging the debt by offering to make a payment towards it, it's really that simple.

 

If the debt was for more money I'd be tempted to leave alone but given the relatively small amount owed you may get lucky simply because it would probably cost more to administrate the debt than it would to accept a lower offer, having said that 5% of £700 is £35 which is probably not feasible to accept so early on.

 

You're the one wanting it gone, you need to pitch your offer at a level that makes it worthwhile for the lender? £35 will hardly do that.

I reside in Dawlish Warren but am not a rabbit.

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QUOTE "I think the thing that swayed Crap1 was my medical report. I am also in correspondence (finally!) with MBNA who are making some of the right noises. From what I have read Crap1 and MBNA don't like dealing with people suffering mental health issues (depression, stress, anxiety etc) and have special depts. to deal with those clients".

Hi Brooooooce.

 

This information is very interesting and may be of use for my OH, can you remember where you found it?

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QUOTE "I think the thing that swayed Crap1 was my medical report. I am also in correspondence (finally!) with MBNA who are making some of the right noises. From what I have read Crap1 and MBNA don't like dealing with people suffering mental health issues (depression, stress, anxiety etc) and have special depts. to deal with those clients".

Hi Brooooooce.

 

This information is very interesting and may be of use for my OH, can you remember where you found it?

 

My experience with many of these companies is that they are beginning to respond responsibly when it comes to serious issues of debt management with their customers. Health and serious debt has given some of these companies a real bad press and they are concerned with the backlash of complaints about DCA's working on their behalf too.

 

Many have set up departments just like the phone companies to deal with specific areas of their business which threaten their reputation or future business PR. Debt being one of those areas and these dedicated teams are waiting to pick up on people with Mental health concerns or really serious debt to try and find a way forward for them. I know, I've spoken with some of them so they are not all ogre's but they are not daft either. They are trained debt counsellors who have come across the debt dodgers hundreds of times so as long as people are relatively genuine then they will at least hear what your concerns are.

 

Call centre debt collectors are not what I am speaking about these are trained people.

 

I always tend to stick to the legal aspects first when negotiating, clear thos and establish right and wrong, then negotiate on the differences after that.

 

Deb T is right, if you don't acknowledge the debt then Don't - simple! but don't pay then. Making an offer certainly 'acknowledges 'a' debt' but it's slightly different if you have issues over the amount so lay out your reasons for your differences, but if you've acknowledged 'a' debt then £35 won't by you much towards a win/win situation which is what you are trying to achieve.

 

As for starting a new thread, this is broooooces thread, but it is about full and finals and I think these posts are all fairly spread in that vein don't you?

 

Either don't pay or up your offer to somewhere between 20%-40% then you might get their ear. In my honest opinion.

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Hi Dot and all

 

The stuff re dealing differently with people who have mental health problems, first check posts 1 & 5 from this person claiming to be an ex employee of MBNA:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/129987-i-used-work-mbna.html

 

His claims are backed up by own experience. Someone called Gail Power (president of MBNA europe) wrote to me this week and stated in her letter MBNA have a specific dept. to deal with nut jobs like me (only joking don't take offence). The same with Crap 1 theres is called the 'Specialist Support Unit' or something like that. The people you speak to are human and English.

 

I'm not advocating people get down the doc's and claim they are depressed but I know from my own experience people don't always know they are until the day when their shoelaces snap and their world falls apart. If people are feeling low, stressed, anxious, irritable or just a bit off it - these are all signs. Andrew1 is right, a lot of these ba****ds are taking mental health / debt much more seriously - I know there have been a couple of really tragic suicides (including one woman hounded for money she didn't even owe). I would add that I sent a copy of a psyhchiatric report (really eminent guy, 20 letters after his name!!) to Sharkleycard (after the asked for it and said it would be sent to their medical team) - what did they do? Never bothered to reply just passed my account to a DCA - total ba****ds!

 

Of all my creditors I think I have only one enforceable agreement (but even that one after 6 months they haven't been able to provide a copy of the original t & c's). The others have either defective DN's and / or application / agreements without PT's. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but even if a judge made an order that it was an IEA it would still mean the creditor could pursue you for the money for years and years to come? And the only way to avoid that is make without prejudice f & f's to be rid of them?

 

I haven't acknowledged any of my debts, I've been following the CAG template letters and all that. But if I was forced to go to court well how could I not acknowledge the debt? I have no dispute about the amount of my debt etc (apart from Cahoot who increased the interest on a flexible loan from 10% to 30% because of a cheque that was lost in the post) but I do have a legit dispute over the legality of the agreements and DN's / TN's.

 

As for Nat and Debs I am happy for you to continue posting, you may post something of importance - knowledge is power and all that. Thanks for your posts.

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Brooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooce's success's so far:

 

Capital One - 15% f & f saving £4,250

Barclaycard - 25% f & f saving £12,000

Blackhorse - reduced loan settlement saving £1,605

Cahoot - 15% f & f saving £2,740

MBNA - 20% f & f saving £26,800

Lloyds TSB 28% f & f saving £7,377

 

Total written off to date: £54,772!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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6. Can someone explain or point me in the right direction for the chapter and verse about why you should send the settlement cheque via a 3rd party?

 

"Nutshells contract law" by Robert Duxbury pages 35-36. (Cost me £8.95)

 

A contract must have "consideration" - something of value offered by each party.

 

Part payment of a debt is not good enough consideration to write off the balance.

 

BUT:

 

1. Composition agreements. Where a group of creditors agree to accept a partial settlement, none of them can sue for the rest after, because allowing them to do so would amount to fraud on the other creditors.

 

2. Part-payment of the debt by a third party. They cannot sue you after accepting F&F from a third party because that would amount to fraud against the third party.

 

Hope that helps:)

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Cheers for that Shinobi. Though I confess I still don't understand it!! Don't understand the fraud bit against the 3rd party.

Brooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooce's success's so far:

 

Capital One - 15% f & f saving £4,250

Barclaycard - 25% f & f saving £12,000

Blackhorse - reduced loan settlement saving £1,605

Cahoot - 15% f & f saving £2,740

MBNA - 20% f & f saving £26,800

Lloyds TSB 28% f & f saving £7,377

 

Total written off to date: £54,772!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Cheers for that Shinobi. Though I confess I still don't understand it!! Don't understand the fraud bit against the 3rd party.

 

Not completely sure I do in legal terms terms. Here's what I think:

 

Third party has no obligation to the creditor, but offers to settle the debt for a reduced amount.

 

If the creditor takes the third party's money as F&F and then sues you, they have dishonestly taken money from the third party.

 

Using dishonesty to make money is fraud.

 

You might get a better explanation if you copy and paste this into a new thread in the legal issues section.

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I think you have provided a very eloquent explanation!! The way you explain it makes sense. In any event I got my father to send Crap1 the settlement cheque, but I just wanted to try and understand the legal logic around sending cheques via a 3rd party.

Brooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooce's success's so far:

 

Capital One - 15% f & f saving £4,250

Barclaycard - 25% f & f saving £12,000

Blackhorse - reduced loan settlement saving £1,605

Cahoot - 15% f & f saving £2,740

MBNA - 20% f & f saving £26,800

Lloyds TSB 28% f & f saving £7,377

 

Total written off to date: £54,772!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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They (creditor) assume you have no money, paying by a third party is assumed (rightly or wrongly) that because you have no money/your credit worthyness is smashed your family/friend as in 'third party' is doing it for you because they're better placed financially than what you are.

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I reside in Dawlish Warren but am not a rabbit.

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Hi Deb. What you say is true - why not let your creditor think that the 3rd party (parent or whoever) is offering the money to help you out, they will no doubt have checked your credit file to establish what a mess you are in. However there is most definitely a legal reason for paying via a 3rd party and shinobi has hit it on the head so to speak.

Brooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooce's success's so far:

 

Capital One - 15% f & f saving £4,250

Barclaycard - 25% f & f saving £12,000

Blackhorse - reduced loan settlement saving £1,605

Cahoot - 15% f & f saving £2,740

MBNA - 20% f & f saving £26,800

Lloyds TSB 28% f & f saving £7,377

 

Total written off to date: £54,772!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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It might be worth a letter to the creditor telling them you authorise your chosen third party to negotiate or act on your behalf. Don't know if it will help or not, but shouldn't do any harm.

 

The thinking behind that is to give them less to complain about.

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In this weeks MBNA letter they actually suggest that.

Brooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooce's success's so far:

 

Capital One - 15% f & f saving £4,250

Barclaycard - 25% f & f saving £12,000

Blackhorse - reduced loan settlement saving £1,605

Cahoot - 15% f & f saving £2,740

MBNA - 20% f & f saving £26,800

Lloyds TSB 28% f & f saving £7,377

 

Total written off to date: £54,772!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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They (creditor) assume you have no money, paying by a third party is assumed (rightly or wrongly) that because you have no money/your credit worthyness is smashed your family/friend as in 'third party' is doing it for you because they're better placed financially than what you are.

 

That's good advice Deb, well done.

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