NEED HELP URGENTLY -Tenon / Incasso / Natwest taking us to court

[Madjjd]

Hi,

Just wondered if anyone would be able to help me as i've read a few posts but can't quite seem to get my head around it.

Me and my husband took out a loan in June 2007 for £25k, the repayments were almost £400 a month, in July last year we were struggling to make the payments, i did contact natwest and try to advise them of the situation. They didn't seem really helpful and would not even cancel the direct debit which came out from my natwest bank account. I managed to cancel this online, however after so long they automatically set the direct debit back up and tried to take the monthly payments again which were just returned as unpaid payments with charges. We wrote a letter to natwest again and they advised there was nothing they could do, we asked them to setup a temp payment plan and offered them £150 a month, they wrote back advising that they would not accept this offer. The outstanding debt was then passed to triton Credit services who sent a letter, however the letter was just address to myself and not my husband after again trying to set up a payment plan with them and getting no response and no call backs when requested, the debt was passed onto Tenon, Finance, again the letters were just address to me and not jointly (The loan was a joint loan) When speaking to both triton and tenon about income and expenditure i always gave them details based on both mine and my husbands income and outgoings, and told them this was a joint account. After dealing with Tenon i agreed to set up a monthly payment plan which started in december 2009 of £ 120 a month, they sent me a letter confirming this agreement and advised they would review again in 3-6 months. However after a few weeks my husband received a letter from Incasso advising they had been passed the debt by Natwest, my husband called them and advised we already had arrangements in place with another company for this debt, we asked them to look into it and get back to us, we also called Natwest on several occasions to confirm who was dealing with the debt and everytime they advised us that it was Tenon. Incasso never called back so we assumed everything had been closed with Incasso until the 13th January when my husband received a county court claim form just in his name for the full amount outstanding. We have sent the acknowledgement slip to the court and have until the 10th Feb to send our defence in.

We are very stressed at the moment and need help in knowing what to do and how to write our defence. We have just sent off another letter by recorded delivery to Natwest & Incasso requesting the true copy of the agreement but have not heard anything back, (we did originally send a request for this back in October and no reply to that either, apart from the declining of the £150 offer we made) as we are not sure what the interest etc is on the loan.

We would really appreciate it if someone could help us and guide us in the right direction.

Thanks:evil:

[GuitarHero]

You may want to check the legal forum. The general natwest forum is for early stage bank charges, CCAs, ODs etc. Also do a search on Incasso as that will give you a general feel for thier recovery process.

 

You've done the right thing so far - but further action is needed ASAP in regards to your defence.

 

From what you've posted so far - it seems unlikely that any outcome will be good.

 

Ultimately Natwest will be seeking to tunred your unsecured loan into a secured one against your home.

 

Rule no1. never speak with these people on the phone. Always in writing.

[Madjjd]

Just wondered if anyone would be able to help me as i've read a few posts but can't quite seem to get my head around it.

Me and my husband took out a loan in June 2007 for £25k, the repayments were almost £400 a month, in July last year we were struggling to make the payments, i did contact NatWest and try to advise them of the situation. They didn't seem really helpful and would not even cancel the direct debit which came out from my NatWest bank account. I managed to cancel this online, however after so long they automatically set the direct debit back up and tried to take the monthly payments again which were just returned as unpaid payments with charges. We wrote a letter to NatWest again and they advised there was nothing they could do, we asked them to setup a temp payment plan and offered them £150 a month, they wrote back advising that they would not accept this offer. The outstanding debt was then passed to triton Credit services who sent a letter, however the letter was just address to myself and not my husband after again trying to set up a payment plan with them and getting no response and no call backs when requested, the debt was passed onto Tenon, Finance, again the letters were just address to me and not jointly (The loan was a joint loan) When speaking to both triton and tenon about income and expenditure i always gave them details based on both mine and my husbands income and outgoings, and told them this was a joint account. After dealing with Tenon i agreed to set up a monthly payment plan which started in december 2009 of £ 120 a month, they sent me a letter confirming this agreement and advised they would review again in 3-6 months. However after a few weeks my husband received a letter from Incasso advising they had been passed the debt by NatWest, my husband called them and advised we already had arrangements in place with another company for this debt, we asked them to look into it and get back to us, we also called NatWest on several occasions to confirm who was dealing with the debt and everytime they advised us that it was Tenon. Incasso never called back so we assumed everything had been closed with Incasso until the 13th January when my husband received a county court claim form just in his name for the full amount outstanding. We have sent the acknowledgement slip to the court and have until the 10th Feb to send our defence in.

We are very stressed at the moment and need help in knowing what to do and how to write our defence. We have just sent off another letter by recorded delivery to NatWest & Incasso requesting the true copy of the agreement but have not heard anything back, (we did originally send a request for this back in October and no reply to that either, apart from the declining of the £150 offer we made) as we are not sure what the interest etc is on the loan.

We would really appreciate it if someone could help us and guide us in the right direction.

Thanks:evil:

[Madjjd]

Thanks for your advice Guitarhero, I am new to this site, so not sure where to start, i have re posted on the debt action group under legal issues, hope this is right????!!!

thanks

[gandolfi]

Hi Majjd

It's dispicable the way Natwest have treated you. Forcing a Direct Debit on you that they know you can't pay and enriching themselves by charging you for the privelege

 

I'm no expert on this at all, but I had some success in getting a loan claim struck out at an earlier stage of my defence/counterclaim against Natwest - see http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/business-claims-bank-charges/81525-gandolfi-natwest-8.html.

 

If Natwest are unable or unwilling to provide the original paperwork for this debt, surely the Court cannot enforce it....? Was your request for the agreement a formal CCA request with the necessary payment? If they fail to produce this, then how can the loan be enforced?

 

Somehow the Court needs to be told that the case is in dispute and that you will submit a fully particularised defence once Natwest have provided the necessary documentation that you have requested. I'm not sure, but in cases over £5,000 I think you make a formal request for information to support your case using CPR18.

 

Hopefully, someone with more expert knowledge will offer support and help with your defence (I am just an ordinary victim of similar circumstances, but don't have any legal expertise). Wish I could help more - it makes me so angry!

Best of luck!

Gandolfi

[ieuanMr]

Never speak to these people on the telephone, especially to call centres and nonetities and low level staff, they are not interested, uneducated and have no manners.

 

What you should do:

 

1. Put in a short defence to the best of your ability

 

2. remind the court of your payback plan/agreement with the debt collection agency

 

3. Complain to the Ombudsman about the way the bank has treated you

 

Don't worry, the courts are reasonable and will not enforce any action without the bank proding a propely executed agreement, although if the bank does have an ageement the court will not squeeze you for more than you can afford to pay.

 

4. remind the court that the bank did not offer to go to arbitration

[Madjjd]

Thankyou very much both of you, for your advice & help.

Does anybody know about the outcome of unenforceable agreements with the test cases which went to court last Nov/Dec?

Can a creditor still enforce it even if they have not got a signed copy? i have read somewhere that it now doesn't have to be the signed one?

Also as my agreement was took out after april 2007, where do i stand there?

 

I also wondered, the amount they are claiming is including all of the interest i should of paid over the total 7 years of the loan, we have had the loan since June 2007 so have had it for 2 and a half years? Can they claim all interest unfront? Or should the interest of been frozen from the moment the account was closed as such?

 

Any advice would be great

thanks

[ieuanMr]

The Office of Fair Trading: making markets work well for consumers

 

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/consultations/OFT1175con.pdf

 

Look at those links and they should tell you all you need to know about the enforcement of agreements.

 

The copy does not have to be a signed copy but it has to be a true copy, if it is illegible they have to type it out for you. They also have to provide you with the whole agreement. If they make one up i.e.e reconstituted it has to be a true refelcetion fo what you signed at the time and not invented.

 

1. They can ask for payment but if they do ask they have to tell you that it is not enfoceable in law if they cannot provide the copy of the agreement.

2. They can report you to a CRA and a collection agency

3. they cannot threaten you with legal action if they have lsot the agreement - section 5.4

4. if 77/78/79 of the 1974 act cannot be complied with then they cannot enforce the debt

5. they must comply within 1 working days otehrwise they have not complied with the 1974 Act.

[diddydicky]

did you keep a copy of the request, was it made under s78 and do you have proof of posting?

 

if you did then they are not entitled to enforce

 

you need also to get off a SAR to natwest fast.

 

acknowledge the summons on the last available day online with your intent to defend all of the claim

 

post up the POC (claim ) so that we can see it and advise what to ask for by way of cpr31.14 and 18

 

as far as letters/legal action is concerned you will both be jointly and severally liable for the debt which means they can sue you individually or together

 

by going after one of you first - if they cock up or cant get paid they can then go after the other

 

i would suggest opening an account at another bank as a matter of priority

 

do you have a default notice??

[Madjjd]

when i originally sent of the request for the agreement in october, it was not requested under the s78, however since receiving the court papers i have sent a request of to them under s78, which was sent approx a week ago, no response as of yet, yes i do have proof on postage for this last request?

I have not sent a Subject Access request of yet, do you have a template at all?

However i have already acknowledged the summons online, but did put on there that i intend to defend PART of the claim and not all of it? How will this affect me?

I am unable to upload the court form as i have no scanner, the only details on the form is the Natwests address, Incasso's address and the amount of £22,742.

I acknowledged it to defend part fo the claim as the amount is not completely correct as i have made payments of £120 for the last two months, (This payment plan is still set up and being paid since the agreement with tenon was arranged) and also this amount due is including all interest over the rest of the loan period, can they still request this? I have to have my defence sent into the court by 10th Feb.

What i don't understand is that i have this agreement in place and tenon are happy with this, they new the amount we agreed on was going on both our income and outgoings? I could understand it if the amount was not enough so they wanted to take this further, but this was agreed so why then take it to another company and issue court forms?

We do already have other bank aco****s set up with another bank.

Thanks for you advice and help

[diddydicky]

ve accidentally deleted some of my word files- put SAR or subject access request into the search at the top of the page and you'll get to some templates

[texanbar]

Hi

 

Firstly, you are not alone and you will get all the support from people on here.

 

With regards, to your defence you need to send in the EMBARRASSED DEFENCE. You cannot defence yourself adequately until you receive a copy of your CCA and you need to do a CPR request before you can even answer what NW (or the DCA) have put on the POA (Particulars of Application).

 

Here is a copy of the embarrassed defence.

Defence

I, (YOUR FULL NAME) make this statement as my defence to the claim brought by National Westminster Bank plc (OR NAME ON THE CLAIM FORM).

 

1.The claimants particulars of claim are vague and fail to disclose any cause of action, they appear to be an abuse of the process in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR.

 

2.No documents supporting the claims in the particulars have been offered which the defendant needs to establish what agreement it is that this action is based upon

3.Without clarification of the claimants claim, the defendant is extremely disadvantaged and the claimants claim appears without merit.

 

4.Further to above the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all. The defendant is embarrassed.

 

Statement of Truth (PUT IN DATE YOU DO THIS)

 

Take one step at a time, you are right at the beginning of this awful process. If you have the time, read my thread Natwest Taking Me To Court and it will give you an idea of what to send and what to expect.

 

This is a long process. Please be strong and remember the courts understand you are the defence and a litigation in person (layman) who does not have any understanding (sorry to generalise) of the legal or court process.

 

I will help out wherever I can.

 

x:)x

Edited February 11, 2010 by texanbar
when i copied and pasted in the defence it had all the sans serif font markers!

[GirlAloud]

Interested to know how you get on - being taken to court by Incasso (Tesco) for 27k - received one letter (no accompanying docs or even account number) and then county court papers. Tesco did send me a copy of CCA - wasn't that easy to read and I am almost sure the sig on it - IS NOT - mine. I do have a copy of the CCA but it is unsigned.

[jason_mnm]

Any updates??????????????????

[maroondevo52]

It would be good to know op not been on since 13th july.

 

Just noticed op had two threads on this subject both merged and placed in Legal Issus Forum.