Nat West loan dispute

[Rogo]

Hi everyone,

 

I've taken a loan with Nat West some 3 years ago. Last summer I decided to check with the bank if they still have the original signed agreement. I found out that they didn't. As I'm struggling to meet the loan repayments I've decided to dispute the loan with NW. In the meantime I cancelled my monthly DD which they re-instated without my permission. I complained and this is the letter they sent me in response. Not sure how to proceed now. Any help would be much appreciated.

 

This is the letter:

Thank you for your telephone call of 19th January 2010. I am sorry you were unhappy with the service you recently received, but grateful you have taken the time to explain why. So that you know how we deal with complaints, I have enclosed an explanatory leaflet.

 

I am very sorry that we are unable to locate your Credit Agreement when requested under Section 77 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. However as previously advised the loan agreement is still valid, and we expect you to continue to meet your obligations under the agreement. I should point out that if you cease to make future payments as they fall due the Banks normal debt recovery process will commence and we will report the default to Credit Reference Agencies. I must point out that Section 77 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is not to be used for customers to avoid paying outstanding debts; it is there for customers to obtain information about debts held with institutions.

 

Please let me know if you remain dissatisfied by either phoning me on 0845 300 3383 or in writing to me. If we cannot reach agreement then you will have the right to refer you complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service, but I do hope that will not prove necessary. If I don’t hear from you by eight weeks from the date of this letter then I will regard your complaint as closed.

 

I am sorry that you needed to contact us and am grateful to you for bringing this to our attention. As I mentioned above, please get in touch with me if you want to discuss the matter further.

[comebackjimmy]

Hi

 

I presume you sent them the CCA request. If they cannot supply you with a copy (or nowadays a true copy) within 12+2 days they cannot enforce the debt until they do. No ifs or buts. Make sure they understand that.

 

Restoring the DD is in my view completely wrong as currently they have not taken the action required to allow them to pursue the debt.

 

In addition, I presume you can repay this loan using any method you wanted to, for example by monthly transfer, standing order, or even cash paid over the counter so the requirement for a direct debit is optional. I think they are abusing their power. Make sure you put that point to them and make them cancel the DD.

 

If this was another organization trying to take money from your account you could use the Direct Debit Guarantee, in other words reporting to your bank and asking them to return the money. However, I am not sure how you do that in this case.

 

Having said that, is the loan organized by a different department to the branch? If so try reporting the bank to itself at the branch level if it takes any money without your permission and insist it is returned under the direct debit guarantee scheme!!!

 

Also, you are managing your bank account as best you can so as to avoid charges. If this means canceling one or more direct debits so as not to go overdrawn then what right have they to jeopardize your money management? Are they going to relieve you of any bank charges that subsequently occur. In essence the bank account and the loan must be treated as separate services and if times are hard and you cannot manage the loan, or indeed you are under no legal obligation to pay the loan whilst they are in default, then then that is your right, not theirs. Put that to them.

 

I would also open another bank account and be ready to move out. The fact is you will get no more lending from them now anyway.

 

If they don't immediately cancel the direct debit then report them to the FSA.

 

It is unbelievable.

 

Wait for some other CAGers to come on as they might modify my points or come up with better advice.

[comebackjimmy]

Hi (again)

 

Points:

 

1. Do you bank with Natwest as well as get the loan from them. If not use the Direct Debit Guarantee option to get the money put back into your account by your own bank as soon as they take it.

 

2. They say in their letter:

 

However as previously advised the loan agreement is still valid, and we expect you to continue to meet your obligations under the agreement.

Well we dont know that if they dont provide a copy of your agreement.

 

I should point out that if you cease to make future payments as they fall due the Banks normal debt recovery process will commence and we will report the default to Credit Reference Agencies.

 

Quite so, but that does not include coming to the cash box and helping yourself.

I must point out that Section 77 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is not to be used for customers to avoid paying outstanding debts; it is there for customers to obtain information about debts held with institutions.

 

It is not for them to tell you what you want to do with section 77. This is just a statement saying that they don't want you to use section 77 for that purpose. In any case customers can legally withhold payment if said institutions don't provide requested documents within the set time scales.

 

3. If you are on line cancel the DD again. If not do it with phone banking or by any other means, and follow it up with a recorded letter.

 

As before wait a while for other CAGers to post in case I have got some stuff wrong.

[Rogo]

Hi,

 

This is very helpful and thanks very much for comenting on various issues.

 

The loan is with NW and I also have a current account with them, from which I made payments. I ran the account well and always made the repayments on time.

 

I sent them the CCA request last summer and got a reply within a few weeks. I didn't know what to do with it and kept paying off my loan, but I'm really fed up with paying half of my salary towards debts and decided to do something about it in the New Year. I have now cancelled all DDs from my NW account and I'm transfering my salary to my HSBC account, which I'm running well. I have cancelled the loan's DD with NW again and I'm planning on closing the account before the end of the week. I don't want them to take any further money and cause me to go overdrawn. I have paid off my credit card balance with them so in principle I'm a 'good customer', but I don't need them, I have other accounts and credit cards.

 

I think I need to send them the 'in dispute letter' (where do I get a template from? I couldn't find it) and will also state what you advised me to say about them reinstating the payment without my permission. I couldn't believe they did it!

In any case, my credit history was spotless until now, and I don't care anymore.

 

Many thanks for your help!

Rogo

[comebackjimmy]

This might be it:

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/571-failiure-to-provide-a-copy-of-the-agreement-within-the-prescribed-timescale

 

Glad your situation is under full control.

 

Either the loan will ultimately prove to be unenforceable or it wont. In the latter case you can pay it under your own control.

 

Post back here with any other events/results because there are ways of negotiating the repayments down.

 

It looks like this will be a black mark on your credit file for the next six years (but you never know).

[Rogo]

That's excellent, I'll tweak the letter a bit and it will work perfectly.

Many thanks

[Rogo]

I've ran into trouble with Nat West. They refused to close my account!

They said that they need to continue taking the loan repayments, despite me cancelling the DD and objecting to them taking the payment.

That's bound to be illegal, right?!

 

Does anyone have a good letter template to send to them? If not than I'm sure I can come up with something.

 

Thanks

[comebackjimmy]

1. Have you moved, cancelled all other transactions on this account? You said you had in post 4. Just double checking.

 

2. Is there an overdraft on the account. If not take all remaining funds out.

 

At this point you have closed the account for practical purposes. Getting Natwest to understand this is the next step.

 

Dont know if there is a suitable template for this, but watch this space as I am at this moment writing a draft which I will post up for others to take a look at/edit.

 

Once you get enough opinion you can if you like take it forward.

 

Unbelievable

[comebackjimmy]

OK Rogo here is something for everybody to take a look at. In the absence of anything else feel free to use/modify or discard as you see fit:

 

Dear Sirs

 

REF Sort Code xx-xx-xx Account Number: xxxxxxxx. Account Closure

 

Despite several attempts on my part to manage my financial affairs the actions of your bank have obstructed me.

 

This situation has arisen by your erroneous insistence that my loan account (number xxxxxxxx) is in some way linked to my bank account.

 

First of all, with regard to my Loan account you have refused to provide me with copies of documentation that were lawfully requested and which by law you are obliged to provide.

 

Following your default I have attempted to follow my lawful right by suspending payment on that account, until such time as you remedy the default, by lawfully removing a direct debit used to make those payments.

 

You have unilaterally and without my permission re-instated that direct debit. This is not an error I would expect a professional banking institution to make. Even if I was legally obliged to make payments to my loan account the source of those payments and the method by which I make them, are uniquely mine to determine.

 

By taking this action you have jeopardized my ability to manage my bank account. Your reckless action puts me in danger of exceeding the accounts limits, causing payments to be returned, which in turn can cause my creditors to charge me. I doubt very much that you are offering to waive any of your own charges with respect to this account if such an eventuality was to occur.

 

Your actions have left me with no choice but to transfer my banking activity to another bank and to close my account.

 

I am incredulous therefore that you have seen fit to refuse to close my account on the grounds that it is needed in order to unlawfully feed my loan account.

 

Therefore please take note:

 

1. I have cancelled all automated transactions on the account.

2. I instruct you to cancel the direct debit to my loan account yet again.

3. I have removed all remaining funds from my account.

4. I have no intention of crediting this account with any more funds.

5. I return to you all unused cheques, deposit slips and debit/guarantee cards used with this account.

 

In short, my account is closed. I will not accept or acknowledge any charges you put on this account for any direct debit transactions that fail as a result of your obstinacy in acknowledging my instructions.

 

Our only remaining business is my loan account, payments to which are lawfully suspended until you fulfill your legal obligations.

 

Please note I am taking advice on the conduct of your bank with a view to restitution. I am also considering my options with regard to reporting you to the relevant bodies such as the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Services Authority and others.

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

etc

[Rogo]

Thanks a lot, and with your permission I will use your template.

I have cancelled all payments into and out of the account, so this works perfectly for me.

[comebackjimmy]

Granted!

 

Wait a while to see if any other CAGers post improvements or alternatives.

 

BTW I assume there is no condition in your loan account that requires you to maintain a Natwest account? Worth checking. If there is we may need to modify the letter slightly.

[Rogo]

I don't think there is, but I'll check. I want to send them the letter asap cause the next loan payment is on Tuesday. I have asked them to remove my overdraft facility and paid off my credit card.

 

I'll keep an eye out on any posts/comments. Thanks!

[comebackjimmy]

OK In that case I would hand deliver if possible and get a receipt so they cannot subsequently say they didn't get it in time. If not possible then do recorded delivery (You can post Saturday for delivery Monday).

 

Also, if they still let you stay on line past banking hours Monday I would cancel the DD again!!

 

From now on you are in dispute so no phone calls, written comms only.

[Madjjd]

Rogo,

 

They did exactly the same thing to me last July, i called them to cancel the d/d and explained i could not afford the payments and they refused to cancel the dd. I therefore signed up to online banking, if you go on there you can cencel the dd yourself however what i found is that after about 2/3 weeks, they automatically set the dd back up without my permission, so i had to keep checking my account everyday to see if the dd had been reinstated. I ended up with charges going on my bank account because they kept trying to take the payment and there was no money in the account.

 

Like someone said in another post, if it was any other dd from a different company you have the dd guarantee and the right to cancel them when you want.

 

Natwest sucks!!!!

[comebackjimmy]

Hi Madjjd

 

It does not surprise me that someone else has come on here and said this is happening. It should be reported. If you have any evidence you should report it to the FSA or banking ombudsman or someone!

 

Rogo you should do the same. It must be an abuse of power. I hope some sharp eyed legal CAGer type can come on here and give an opinion about how to get NatWest for this.

[Rogo]

Hi Madjjd,

 

Thanks for your reply and this is exactly the situation I'm in at the moment. I cancel online and they re-instate it without my permission a while later. I'm going to send them a letter, but doubt if it'll make any difference. I think I'll send a copy of the letter to my branch as well as the body dealing with my account. I will use Comebackjimmy's template.

 

Is your dispute still going or did you manage to resolve it? Did you contact the FSA or another body?

 

I agree, NW sucks!

[Madjjd]

No mine is still going on at the moment, i explained to them i cannot afford the monthly payments, and tried to agree a monthly payment, thye did not accept. They passed my account to Triton credit services, i then called them and tried to arrange payment and after calling them several times and waiting for them to call me back, They didn't. so my account then got passed to Tenon Recovery. I agreed with them a payment plan in november last year, they advised they would review again in 3-6 months. This was a joint loan, but the letter from triton and tenon were just address to me, when i arranged the payment plan, it was based on both mine and my husbands income and outgoings, this was explained at the time it was set up. Then 2 weeks later my husband received a letter incasso advising they were chasing for repayment on the loan, we called them and they said they would look into this with natwest and let us know the outcome. Once again no called back received so we presumed that everything had been sorted. Then 2 weeks ago my husband received a county court claim form (just addressed to him) chasing the whole outstanding debt (passed to the court from Incasso)

So i really don't know what to do at the minute as i am paying a monthly amount each month to Tenon but my husband has had court papers through for the same debt. Now i can understand if they were seeking recovery of this and were going to split the o/s debt between the two of us and we make seperate payments, but the letter i received from Tenon was for the total amount o/s and the court papers for my husband is also for the total o/s!!! I just do not know what to do, i have tried calling natwest to resolve this but i just get told that i need to deal with Tenon!!! Who is supposed to be dealing with my o/s debt, surely two companies cannot chase the same debt? We went to see citizens advise but did not get any further help what so ever, so am in a real dilemma now and family home is very stressful at the moment which is really not fair on my two children!!! Any help would be much appreciated. How did your arguement with them start Rogo ?

[Rogo]

Hi Madjjd,

 

Your dispute sounds like a real nightmare, I wouldn't know what advice to give as I'm completely new to this. My argument with NW started when I decided not to make further loan repayments to them (loan w/NW, repayments our of NW current a/c). I did that because I found out that they don't have the original CCA. I knew this will cause havoc but as I'm going deeper into debts by trying to repay existing loans, I decided to call it a day. I have now sent them the 'In dispute' letter, as well as 'Account closure' letters and await to hear from them. I don't think they have the right to help themselves to my money if they can't legally justify it. I have already repayed them 3/4 of my loan, and the balance is £3k. I'll keep you posted on the progress. In your case, it might be a good idea to contact the FSA and ask them for guidance on how to proceed. Or the Office of Fair Trading? They should at least give you some advice? It seems that the organisations aren't talking to each other hence the duplication of actions. Same thing happened to me and my partner with paying the Council Tax. I paid it all in one go at the beginning of the year and they kept chasing my partner for payment for several months not connecting that we were together (same address, both names on the account etc). Good luck.

[comebackjimmy]

Hi Madjjd

 

Did your husband receive a county court summons or just a copy of the application document the creditor would send to the county court in order to get the summons issued (N1 form)?

 

Sometimes the N1 form is downloaded and completed by the creditor and a copy sent to the debtor to prove some intent.

 

If you have received the full wack from the court it will be a document pack. You will return one or more of the forms depending upon the circumstances and what you want to do.

 

You have 14 days to reply and if you are defending then a further 14 days to put in your defence.

 

It might be worth saying you will defend the claim. Then ask the creditor for a copy of the following documents:

 

1. Default Notice

2. Termination Notice

3. Copy of the original agreement

4. If the debt was sold a copy of the notice of assignment.

 

There may be sufficient errors in the documents and or the processes by which they were served for you to be able to raise a good defence.

 

Wait a while for other CAGers to come on here and clarify/add to my post.

[Madjjd]

thanks for your help and advice.

I am almost certain it was a court summons, it had a defence claim form and an admission form in it, my defence was due back by the 10th which i posted today, defending part of the claim.

I requested the agreement from Natwest, they just replied on Friday advising that they do not hold My husbands signature on record and asked him to take his passport and driving license into a local branch. and also asking for us to both sign any correspondance and return. However there was nothing attached to the letter. I have added this to my defence. But i'm just wondering at what happens now. Is it the court that look at the defence letter and make a decision or does a copy of it get sent to the claimant for them to respond?? I'm just a bit dubious about what the decision will be, as i own my own property.

[paulwlton]

thanks for your help and advice.

I am almost certain it was a court summons, it had a defence claim form and an admission form in it, my defence was due back by the 10th which i posted today, defending part of the claim.

I requested the agreement from Natwest, they just replied on Friday advising that they do not hold My husbands signature on record and asked him to take his passport and driving license into a local branch. and also asking for us to both sign any correspondance and return. However there was nothing attached to the letter. I have added this to my defence. But i'm just wondering at what happens now. Is it the court that look at the defence letter and make a decision or does a copy of it get sent to the claimant for them to respond?? I'm just a bit dubious about what the decision will be, as i own my own property.

 

You need to start your own thread then post a link to it.

 

Paul