Update and further advice pls - Reply to Formal Complaint recved

[eliza2705]

Dear All

I posted a thread about a bailiff from Rossendales on 2 Nov 2009 after he visited our home. I'd insert a link to the thread but afraid I don't know how.

 

We've had an ongoing dispute with the bailiffs and the council now going back to the end of 2008 when we lived at our old address. Some may remember (esp Hallowitch, H Contrails TomTubby who helped a great deal) that my OH signed a WPO at the old address in Sept 2008 (in my absence) under duress, he was told this was an "Instalment Plan" by said bailiff, his first language is Dutch. He had no clue what he was signing. The bailiff levied on a hire car sitting in our driveway. I understood, after reading up on this site that the Levy was invalid as the car didn't belong to us. AND as the Bailiff didn't gain peaceful entry (just stood on doorstep) he had no right to claim he could return and remove goods even in our absence.

 

Anyway, I've written several letters to the council. The last one on 4th Nov 2009 was regarding the visit on 2 Nov by the dreaded Mr CU****. I took advice and headed it FORMAL COMPLAINT, sent it via email and reg post to the CEO of the Council. I received a reply last Saturday (along with two further invoices for CT totalling £1200 for NEXT year despite the fact we are in receipt of HB and CT Benefits!)

 

I don't have a scanner so I'll give you my question/complaint first (there are several) and then their reply:

 

1. I complained that no warning was given to us, at our new address, to advice us of the bailiff's visit on 2 Nov 2009.

 

LA Reply: Once a Liability Order is obtained, and a notice of the intention to disrain is sent, a Billing Authority can instruct a bailiff at any time without further notification to the debtor.

2. I gave a detailled account of what happened that day, down to the bailiff shouting in the street that "this is what happens when you don't pay CT" to threatening my partner with physical violence "I'll thwack you in the face if you don't move".

 

LA Reply: I have received a report on the incident from the bailiff. The use of intimidation, force and aggression are denied by the bailiff. All bailiffs used by the council are properly certificated and are experienced and knowledgeable in the law of distraint. THe bailiff also denies that the police attended whilst he was at the property. If they did attend you will have an incident number. Please provide this in order for the details to be checked.

 

(I did ring the police while bailiff was here, he said he had to wait here until they arrived. I wasn't really thinking clearly and just wanted him gone so I said I'd told the police call had been cancelled. He left. The police still came. Despite our telling them that the bailiff threatened to assault my OH they didn't give an incident number and, in hindsight, I should've insisted they take a statement. They were very nice and told us never to open the door to a bailiff, keep all doors and windowls locked etc but seemed uniniterested in the fact that the bailiff thretened my OH. Naively, I believed that as we had witnesses then their statements (if it came to that) would be enough to prove to the council that the bailiff used aggressive behaviour. The bailiff, and the council are effectively calling me, my hubby and two other impartial witnesses liars!!)

 

3. I claimed that the bailiff committed fraud by charging a fee of £120 for "van".

 

LA Reply: Please be aware that the costs are permissable in law and that no fraud has been committed.

4. I stated that the bailiff had no right to enter our property as he did not have a valid WPO.

 

LA Reply: MR XXX (my oh) signed a WPO on xx Aug 2008, a copy of which is held at the bailiff's office. The bailiff had a right to enter the property to disrain on goods because Mr XXX had signed the WPO.

(I have already, in a prev letter disputed the validity of this WPO both with the LA and Rossendales, both refuse to acknowledge that it was invalid as a hire car had been listed on it. Am I correct in believing that as a hired car was levied this rendered the WPO invalid?? Am I going mad!! lol Also, surely there's a time limit on WPOs? I read somewhere on this forum that they are enforceable for only 6months. If this is the case then it's obviously out of date anyway?)

 

5. I pointed out that on 2 Nov at our new address, the bailiff levied on goods outside the property which should they be taken wouldn't be worth more than about £2 in total! (a broom, a bucket and an old plastic garden chair!) but that this property belongs to our landlord. (Landlord lives in manor house, we have a cottage in grounds. There are many outbuildings, barns etc. None of which we rent/use)

 

LA REPLY: The bailiff is entitled to levy on goods outside a property. THe bailiff report indicates that you were required to provide proof of ownership for these items but have not yet done so.

(Now really!! They must be taking the you know what!! They expect us to "prove ownership" of a bucket, broom and discoloured manky old plastic chair?! When does common sense and logic EVER kick in with these folks!)

 

6. I asked that the council take the debt back into their administration as we are both on prescribed benefits, my OH is very ill, has suffered from severe depression for almost a year now and has had ongoing health problems which are being investigated. He had cancer five years ago and it was treated successfully but now it looks as though its returned. He had a CT scan last week and we must wait another week to find out if ithas come back. I'm terrified of what's going to happen to him and don't need this extra stress alongside the worry of waiting to find out what his prognosis is.

 

LA reply - You request that you should be classed as vulnerable and that the Liability Order be returned by the bailiffs. In view of the amount of time the debt has been outstanding and the lack of any attempt to clear the debt I am unable to consent to this request. Please contact the bailiff to arrange payment of the debt.

THe letter also stated that I have never made any payment yet I have made payments, online, directly to their account and can prove this to them.

 

I know this was a very longwinded, rambling read and I do hope some of you managed to stick with me. Any advice as to what to do next would really be welcome. I'm so worried about my OH that I can't sleep or eat I'm so terrified that the cancer has come back. What do I do!??? No-one is listening. Despite the fact that the letter was sent to the CEO at the LA the response was from some Revenues Processing Manager. This person appears to either have very little knowledge of the law and guidelines in connection with bailiffs and their activities adn yet..how can that be possible? How do I get them to listen to me!? I honestly feel like screaming at the moment.

 

Sorry to be so "all over the place"

Please help!

Eliza

[fluffy_bunny]

Who replied?

 

Did they provide details of how to appeal this and escalate?

[seanamarts]

I would call back the police as they would have this visit logged, once you have the details of who attended etc I would reply to the letter sent with the proof. This would show the bailiff had lied to the council in that respect.

Send them proof that you had been paying, plus proof of all benefits that you are getting. Make it clear to them that a the levy was invalid as the car was not your property and they cannot levy on a car that does not belong to you and therefor said levy is invalid.

I spy hallowitch, she will give more info im sure.

[hallowitch]

I spy hallowitch, she will give more info im sure.

 

back in 10 making bacon sanies for my grandson

[comebackjimmy]

subbing

[eliza2705]

Who replied?

 

Did they provide details of how to appeal this and escalate?

 

 

Hi Fluffy Bunny

No, they gave no info on how to appeal or escalate it. Just ended the letter asking me to ring them to arrange payment of this year's CT. We are on benefits and claim Housing and CT Benefit so I don't know why they are demanding this. Obviously made a mistake.. was going to ring the woman who wrote the letter today but thought I'd get some moral support on here instead

[seanamarts]

Hi Fluffy Bunny

No, they gave no info on how to appeal or escalate it. Just ended the letter asking me to ring them to arrange payment of this year's CT. We are on benefits and claim Housing and CT Benefit so I don't know why they are demanding this. Obviously made a mistake.. was going to ring the woman who wrote the letter today but thought I'd get some moral support on here instead

Well that just shows that they DONT check peoples accounts, now if they follow protocols then they should be looking at getting the debt back from the bailiffs and start making arrangements of getting the debt deducted from your benefits.

 

Hallowitch, mm bacon buttys.. lol

Edited January 25, 2010 by seanamarts
laptop taking over making me spell wrong

[hallowitch]

national debt line

 

 

From April 1998 you should get a letter from the council telling you how much you owe and warning you that a bailiff will call if you do not pay the debt within 14 days. It will also tell you who to contact at the council if you have a query. Contact the council and try to make an arrangement to pay what you can afford immediately. If the council agrees then they can stop bailiffs being called out and save you extra fees

 

LA Reply: Please be aware that the costs are permissible in law and that no fraud has been committed.

only if he has a valid levy

 

LA Reply: MR XXX (my oh) signed a WPO on xx Aug 2008, a copy of which is held at the bailiff's office. The bailiff had a right to enter the property to disrain on goods because Mr XXX had signed the WPO.

Distress

45.—(1) Where a liability order has been made, the authority which applied for the order may levy the appropriate amount by distress and sale of the goods of the debtor against whom the order was made.

The bailiff can only levy goods belonging to the debtor the bailiff can do a dvla check to confirm who the goods belong to (and should have when ownerships of said goods were questioned

MR xxxxx is a German national the bailiff gave him a paper to sign he did because he was ask to he didn't know what he was signing

4. I stated that the bailiff had no right to enter our property as he did not have a valid WPO.

 

LA Reply: MR XXX (my oh) signed a WPO on xx Aug 2008, a copy of which is held at the bailiff's office. The bailiff had a right to enter the property to disrain on goods because Mr XXX had signed the WPO.

the goods levied on were outside the property therefore the bailiff has not gained peaceful entry

5. I pointed out that on 2 Nov at our new address, the bailiff levied on goods outside the property which should they be taken wouldn't be worth more than about £2 in total! (a broom, a bucket and an old plastic garden chair!) but that this property belongs to our landlord. (Landlord lives in manor house, we have a cottage in grounds. There are many outbuildings, barns etc. None of which we rent/use)

 

LA REPLY: The bailiff is entitled to levy on goods outside a property. The bailiff report indicates that you were required to provide proof of ownership for these items but have not yet done so.

 

regardless of ownership the reason for a levy is to secure goods against the debt and bailiffs fees(cant find legislation where i saw this but will keep looking)

The goods levied must cover bailiffs fee and portion of the debt

these goods clearly have no value

If the bailiff felt he had a valid levy from August why did he feel it it was necessary to gain another

 

6. I asked that the council take the debt back into their administration as we are both on prescribed benefits, my OH is very ill, has suffered from severe depression for almost a year now and has had ongoing health problems which are being investigated. He had cancer five years ago and it was treated successfully but now it looks as though its returned. He had a CT scan last week and we must wait another week to find out if it has come back. I'm terrified of what's going to happen to him and don't need this extra stress alongside the worry of waiting to find out what his prognosis is.

 

LA reply - You request that you should be classed as vulnerable and that the Liability Order be returned by the bailiffs. In view of the amount of time the debt has been outstanding and the lack of any attempt to clear the debt I am unable to consent to this request. Please contact the bailiff to arrange payment of the debt

absolutely classed as vulnerable the debt is getting paid but at a rate you afford because of your circumstances

[eliza2705]

Hi Hallowitch and thank goodness you're here!! I know and you know that we are classed as vulnerable but the Council are not interested. And yes, I wondered at why they would try to get us to sign a further WPO in Niovember if they already had a valid one. The previous one was signed AUgust 2008. Over 16 months ago, even had it been valid in the first place, isn't it out of date now? I read somewhere it's invalid after 6 months. Do you know the answer to this?

 

Any suggestions on how to escalate this issue?? I wrote to the Chief Executive ...how much higher do I have to go!

[hallowitch]

the Levy's are nether here nor there its the fact that they are unlawful and we need to get the charges connected with them removed

the goods in your home are not on the Levy's the only goods he could remove would be the goods on the levy

and we need to try and get a payment plan set up with the council

[comebackjimmy]

Hi eliza2705

 

This is a terrible story and you have my utmost sympathy.

 

I wonder if you would make some progress by enlisting the help of your MP, councilor and the press.

 

Here is a possible game plan for your consideration and that of other CAGers:

 

 

 

1. Write a letter to your MP explaining what has happened and ask him to help you straighten your affairs with the intransigent council.

 

2. Do the same with the local councilors.

 

3. Write a press release explaining your circumstances and what has happened. Add that you are waiting for replies from your MP and councilors.

 

4. Send the press release to your local paper and perhaps selected nationals that like a good human interest story.

 

The advantage of this approach is that things might start to happen in your favour, but the disadvantage is that your problems then become public which is something you might not want.

 

Speaking personally I would not want my local council bullying vulnerable people in the way you are being bullied for the sake of a bit of tax. It was these muppets that lost a fortune in Iceland and it was the MP's that claimed one on expenses.

 

This could be a hot potatoe and you should consider dropping it in their laps.

 

All the best.

[hallowitch]

getting it touch with your MP is always a good idea there has been a lot of success in past on here with people going to there MP

[eliza2705]

Hi eliza2705

 

This is a terrible story and you have my utmost sympathy.

 

I wonder if you would make some progress by enlisting the help of your MP, councilor and the press.

 

Here is a possible game plan for your consideration and that of other CAGers:

 

 

 

1. Write a letter to your MP explaining what has happened and ask him to help you straighten your affairs with the intransigent council.

 

2. Do the same with the local councilors.

 

3. Write a press release explaining your circumstances and what has happened. Add that you are waiting for replies from your MP and councilors.

 

4. Send the press release to your local paper and perhaps selected nationals that like a good human interest story.

 

The advantage of this approach is that things might start to happen in your favour, but the disadvantage is that your problems then become public which is something you might not want.

 

Speaking personally I would not want my local council bullying vulnerable people in the way you are being bullied for the sake of a bit of tax. It was these muppets that lost a fortune in Iceland and it was the MP's that claimed one on expenses.

 

This could be a hot potatoe and you should consider dropping it in their laps.

 

All the best.

 

HiJimmy

Thanks for your support. I have indeed thought about going to MP, press etc. I'm not particularly keen on the idea of having my affairs in the public domain and this is what has stopped me so far. BUT, I hear of this happening more and more and I do believe if no-one speaks out against such unjust and bullying behaviour then this will be seen as acceptance of it. And that can't happen. The hot potato may be about to land.

[fluffy_bunny]

Hi Fluffy Bunny

No, they gave no info on how to appeal or escalate it. Just ended the letter asking me to ring them to arrange payment of this year's CT. We are on benefits and claim Housing and CT Benefit so I don't know why they are demanding this. Obviously made a mistake.. was going to ring the woman who wrote the letter today but thought I'd get some moral support on here instead

 

Is there an email address? You should keep it in writing if possible rather than over the phone unless you can record your calls.

 

Have you checked the council's website to see their complaint escalation procedures? I would ask for these in the email too and point out that they should have been provided in the first place.

[fluffy_bunny]

Hi Hallowitch and thank goodness you're here!! I know and you know that we are classed as vulnerable but the Council are not interested. And yes, I wondered at why they would try to get us to sign a further WPO in Niovember if they already had a valid one. The previous one was signed AUgust 2008. Over 16 months ago, even had it been valid in the first place, isn't it out of date now? I read somewhere it's invalid after 6 months. Do you know the answer to this?

 

Any suggestions on how to escalate this issue?? I wrote to the Chief Executive ...how much higher do I have to go!

 

OMBUDSMAN !!

[seanamarts]

I would speak to the person who wrote you the letter with you replies first and if you get no joy then going to the local government ombudsman would be the best move. They would investigate this further. Your council should have a complaints procedure and if they have a website have a look on there.

[comebackjimmy]

seanamarts has a good point about the local ombudsman. Councils do not like being reported. If this prospect looms they might take this case more seriously, and treat you like human beings!

[eliza2705]

seanamarts has a good point about the local ombudsman. Councils do not like being reported. If this prospect looms they might take this case more seriously, and treat you like human beings!

 

Treat us like human beings? Now there would be a novel experience.

 

My hubby has his appointment with the specialist at 5.30pm Thursday this week. We'll find out if the cancer is back. It's all I can think about at the moment. Wish us luck. Thank you for all your support, I think I'd have gone loopy (my hubby would say I already am) without this site and the great advice.

E

[RaeUK]

Good luck eliza both with this problem and hubbys health!

You have quite a bit of advice so I'm just hovering in the background...

... and being disappointed at missing Halowitches bacon sarnies...

Best wishes.

Rae.

Edited January 26, 2010 by RaeUK
type o

[eliza2705]

Thanks Rae, I'll keep you updated. I'm vegetarian but I DO miss bacon!!!

[hallowitch]

My mate a vegetarian and i love it when she comes to visit but I'm glad when she goes home

Rae i only make bacon sanies for my golden child (grandson) but i would make an exception for you if you dont tell my husband and kids

[comebackjimmy]

Good luck on both situations from another veggie! (I eat nothing with nothing with eyes except potatoes!!)

[seanamarts]

Treat us like human beings? Now there would be a novel experience.

 

My hubby has his appointment with the specialist at 5.30pm Thursday this week. We'll find out if the cancer is back. It's all I can think about at the moment. Wish us luck. Thank you for all your support, I think I'd have gone loopy (my hubby would say I already am) without this site and the great advice.

E

Nowt wrong with loopiness, I thrive on it.. good luck by the way, we are all routing for you

 

Hallowitch, I used to be a veggie but it was the smell of bacon cooking that made me eat meat again..

[eliza2705]

Good luck on both situations from another veggie! (I eat nothing with nothing with eyes except potatoes!!)

 

LOL..thanks for that Jimmy, you made me smile, which is an unusual occurrence these days I'm with you on that one with regard to eating nothing with eyes except tatties!!.

[eliza2705]

Nowt wrong with loopiness, I thrive on it.. good luck by the way, we are all routing for you

 

Hallowitch, I used to be a veggie but it was the smell of bacon cooking that made me eat meat again..

 

 

Aaargh, PLEASE stop going on about bacon!!! lol...I can smell it now and there isn't even any bacon cooking! I do, occasionally, (I know this sounds gross but plenty of my veggie pals do it too) have a smokey bacon flavoured crisp butty...just to stave the cravings. It's not quite the same though. The fake bacon you get in the supermarkets tatstes just the same as the crisps. Now enough...I'm really getting off topic now!! hehe