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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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M&S money Credit Card CCA Problems


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Hi All,

 

Just got a general question for you.

 

Can a creditor issue 2 default notices on the same account? It hasnt happened yet, but I just wondered what the implications are (if any) if it does?

 

Usually, the timescales on DN's are 14 days. Does this mean that they expire after 14 days and the creditor can then decide what to do next?

 

 

Many Thanks

 

 

Simon

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Simon,

 

Default notices are a statutory requirement (although some solicitors are trying to get round this)

 

They need to be accurate, ask only for arrears that are due at the time, be in the prescribed format and allow a clear 14 days to remedy. So penalty charges should not be included in the sum requested as they arent techinically sums due.

 

They must build into their timescale an allowance for mailing. 2 working days for 1st class and 4 working days for 2nd class post. Always, always keep the envelope.

 

So if say the date on a DN is a Friday or the Thursday before a Bank Holiday then the DN could NOT have been in the postal system. So you start counting from the Monday or Tuesday if it is a bank holiday.

 

If you remedy the Default notice within the remedy date, they can issue another DN. If you dont and at a later date they demand the full amount due, especially on the back of a faulty DN then no they cannot or should not be allowed to issue another one.

 

Once they have demanded the full amount, it is accepted that they no longer believe the agreement endures so how can they issue a default notice on something that doesnt exist ?

 

There are a couple of good DN threads,

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/170345-tale-dodgy-dn.html

 

There is a link to a further discussion in the one above. Also, seek out posts made by the following on the subject.

 

banker_rhymes_with

diddydicky

vint1954

 

All good stuff

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Hi Again one and all,

 

I did what SFU suggested and asked M&S what a judge would make of the agreement and inparticular the relationship between the agreement and S61(1)(a) & S59 of the CCA.

 

Of course they didnt answer these questions. In their reply (attached), they said they're NOT obliged to answer my letter point by point!!!!!!

 

I am not suprised but a little disapointed.

 

As Ive told them I am not going to answer any of their letters anymore, lets see what they do next.

 

 

Kind Regards

 

EOS-5D

M&S CCA REPLY 17.pdf

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What an arrogant and useless letter.

 

If, as SFU reckons, they set various DCAs on you (for that seems to be their way) I suggest you should send a single letter, along with a copy of your last letter to M&S, telling them to refer the account back to M&S and that you will not respond to any further letters from them.

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Hi Again one and all,

 

I did what SFU suggested and asked M&S what a judge would make of the agreement and inparticular the relationship between the agreement and S61(1)(a) & S59 of the CCA.

 

Of course they didnt answer these questions. In their reply (attached), they said they're NOT obliged to answer my letter point by point!!!!!!

 

I am not suprised but a little disapointed.

 

As Ive told them I am not going to answer any of their letters anymore, lets see what they do next.

 

 

Kind Regards

 

EOS-5D

 

 

Oh dear, have they chucked their dummy out the pram ?

 

So they dont have to answer your letter (complaint) point by point dont they.

 

I wonder if that is the type of arrogant carp they will say to the DJ, should they carry out their threat of litigation.:rolleyes:

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Thank you for your replies.

 

Im very ready if they go down the dca route, I've already drafted my letter to them.

 

If it goes as far as court I am equally as ready. Ive kept all of their mail as a good cagger should and there's some beauties in there. Such as the good Ms Ellett saying that M&S have never employed reps instore to sell their financial products, despite my alleged agreement form having a store number & employee number. ummmmmm

 

seriously fed up said:
equivalent of a little child stamping their foot imo. Yes lets see what they do next.

My guess is a DCA

 

Spot on SFU. Got my very 1st DCA letter this morning from Rockwell which of course is attached.

 

They are asking for the full balance owing. I havent had a DF and Termination notice yet, so shouldnt they be asking me for the arrears?

 

I'll get a letter off to them today as I dont really want them calling me.

 

Regards

 

EOS-5D

Rockwell Threatogram1.pdf

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi EOS and SFU

 

Just to say I am at the same place its just a cause of round and round the merry go round

 

Did get a werid one from Westcott today saying we need a payment plan you can afford and keep up - so 5p a week for the next 2000 years that ok?

 

S

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Everyone,

 

After having a month or so break from hearing from M&S or Rockwell, I have had letters from both of them this morning.

 

The M&S one was a copy of my "application form/agreement" and a covering letter saying that they have also sent the same to Rockwell.

 

The Rockwell letter comprised of a copy of the M&S letter, a copy of the "application form/agreement" and a compliment slip saying if they dont hear from me within 10 days, "further revovery action will continue".

 

I'll send them another letter stating the alleged account does not comply with the CCA.

 

 

Do any of you think that there is anything else I should put in the letter.

 

 

Kind Regards

 

EOS-5D

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SFU and EOS, I have moved prettyprincesscharlie to her own thread now which is

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?274640-prettyprincesscharlie-and-M-S

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Everyone,

 

Further to my lovely letter to Rockwell asking them to return the file to M&S ASAP, I have this morning recieved the attached letter from Debbie Hughes in the Customer Claims Team, saying that the alleged agreement is enforceable and that they can call us up to 4 times a day, as long as they only make contact once.

 

Yet again, M&S have mentioned S61(1)(b) and overlooked S61(1)(a) which could be a little harmful to them.

 

Could someone please have a look at the letter and see if they are talking bunkum or not.

 

Kind Regards

 

EOS-5D

M&S reply 12.pdf

M&S reply 12b.pdf

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Its quite a skillful letter, as there isnt anything in it that is actually wrong. Their problem is that they dont tell the whole story. To see this, lets look at s61 in its entirety.

"61.—(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless (a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and (b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and © the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible."

I dont think, from what I recall of your thread, have to bother too much with © and whether its legible. They say that according to s61 (b) that the signed agreement should embody all the terms of the agreement other than the implied ones. If you look at (b) you will see that this is broadly speaking true. But what they miss out on - quite deliberately I would guess - is section (a) which does not require the prescribed terms to be merely "embodied" but actually "contained" ON the sig page. There are a number of threads where this is the issue - for instance http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?179069-Stebiz-vs.-Cabot-***WON-ON-APPEAL-***/page4. To quote Peter Bard

" It seems a few creditors are using section 61(b) of the act to argue that the prescribed terms can be "embodied within" an agreement (ie elswhere, as long as expessly mentioned), in fact the prescribed terms are to be contained within the agreement as referred to in section 61(a), section 61(b) refers to other terms.

 

The term "contained" as in 61(a) and SI 1983/1553 refers to the terms as prescribed by section 60, and specifically to those as defined in schedule 6 of the SI.This means that means they should be within the document and cannot be in another one(even if experessly refferred to). This is the position taken by Goode and is generally accepted."

Another source would be HHJ Langan in BoS v Mitchell who says "The key words in section 61(1)(a) are the reference to a “document” “itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to the regulations under section 60(1)”. This language is clear and specific and ensures that mere reference

to terms contained in another document will not suffice. The document must contain the prescribed terms just as the signed document referred to in section 127(3), which might save the day, must however contain the prescribed terms."

In other words that they dont refer to 1a at all is, as you observe yourself revealing. What they are saying in their letter isnt so much wrong as just doesnt tell the whole story. They need a document with your sig on it that fulfils 1a and if they dont have that they are sunk.

You need to remember two things

 

  1. they wont ever admit that they are wrong - even if all they had was a shopping list they would say its enforceable. When you are at the wrong end of one of these damned letters it can be hard to remember that, but if they dont have a document with the prescribed terms and your sig then they have had it
  2. they wont always let up. The above argument means ONLY that the account cannot be enforced via the Courts - it doesnt mean that it has disappeared in some sense. However, it would be interesting if someone could find out what the regs on phoning people are. I had one lot of monkeys phoning me last week and their take was "three times" with no requirement that they give up once they speak to me. I strongly suspect they make it up. What might make them give up in due course is the slow realisation/ acceptance that you arent going to pay up. I am looking for a F&F with the mob that phoned me last week (its a post 2007 account so 127 - 3 doesnt apply any more) and tbh we are about £60 apart. I just wonder how much their phone calls have eaten into that?

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I think you need to ask them to provide you with either a copy of the law/regulations that allows them to telephone in the manner they are advising,alternatively to provide you with the details of that law/regulation in order for you to confirm for yourself.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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  • 3 weeks later...

Good Morning All,

 

I received a recorded delivery letter from M&S this morning and it was a carbon copy of the previous letter they sent me, except they've added that "I can consider this as M&S' final response on the matter".

Needless to say they havent provided proof (which Ive asked for) that they can call me 4 times a day but only make contact once and they still havent answered my question on why section 61(1)(a) has no bearing on this alleged agreement.

 

Cheers

 

EOS 5D

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  • 5 months later...

Hello All,

 

Long time no speak!!

 

I recdeived a letter from DLC on Saturday, asking me to contact them regarding the alleged debt to M&S. I sent them an email telling them that the alleged agreement is un-enforceable and for them to return the file back to M&S.

 

My question to you is, has anyone had any dealings with DLC, as they have now called me several times since Saturday and its getting a bit boring now.

 

Hope youre all well

 

Regards

 

EOS-5D

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  • 1 year later...

Hello All,

 

Hope you're all well.

 

Well, after over a year of not hearing anything from M&S or any DCAs on their behalf, we've had a letter this morning advising us that they've sold the account and any sums owing on the account, to Marlin Europe I. Has anyone had any dealings with Marlin, and what would be the best way to deal with this?

 

Kind Regards,

 

EOS-5D

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 9 years later...

Hi All,

 

I CCA'd M&S money last week with a template letter from this site. Of course I didnt sign the letter, I used block capitals as advised.

 

I recieved a reply from them this morning which had 2 pages in it.

 

The 1st page was a letter saying that under the consumer credit act, before they can provide a copy of this info, they need my "signature of authority", and that I had to allow 12 days for them to process this info and the 2nd page was a form which I had to fill out with my personal details.

 

My questions are:-

 

1) Do I need to provide them with a "signature of authority" and further personal details before they release any info to me?

 

2) Is this just a delaying tactic by them, because they dont have or cant find my agreement?

 

3) What is my next move? Is there a template for a reply to them?

 

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

Cheers

 

EOS5D

 

OK

 

I received my CCA information back from M&S yesterday. Could someone please have a look to see if there are any "holes" in it. I dont know if this will have a bearing on things but I thought I should mention it. A member of M&S staff filled this form out for me instore, as I didnt really want the card but she was really pushy.

 

For some reason Ive created 10 single PDFs, so Ive spread the CCA Info over 2 posts, Sorry.

 

Cheers

 

EOS-5D

 

Part 2, PDFs 6-10

 

ta

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CCA return.pdf

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