Hospital parking fine

[takeitbaby]

Hi,

 

New user and first post - I've already checked through the FAQ's and read through the forums about Parkforce and their behaviour......I just need to check something with the fora.

 

I'm a doctor and as part of our training we rotate around different hospitals every 6 months or so. We are employed nominally by one hospital trust so most of the time getting hospital specific documentation done is a nightmare before starting at a new hospital.

 

I started working at x-hospital in early January and applied for a parking permit on my first day there (including getting the forms stamped and signed by the head of department-not particularly straightforward!).

 

I parked in the multi-story car park there (there is nowhere else available to park on site) and as I'd applied for my car parking permit I didn't pay for parking, thinking that if there was a problem I could explain it and common sense may prevail........

 

Anyway, after 2 weeks of crappy blizzards and just managing to get in the weather improved and I continued to park in the multi-story. I still hadn't been issued my parking permit (apparently there is a meeting once a month where they discuss who to grant them to and it hasn't occurred yet) but with a 40 mile commute, no-one to car share with and no other way of getting to work I had no choice but to park there, and I thought it was unfair that I would have to pay about £8/day to park at work!

 

So I finished work and came out to find a PCN from Parkforce (the usual £30 if you pay within 7 days --> £85 if DVLA become involved etc). There was a very grainy picture of a car (same make and model as mine but unable to see license plate on picture due to quality) parked with the date, time, my cars make, registration number and model on a sticker attached to the notice stating that I had no pay and display ticket.

 

I went to see the estates manager about it and she said that once the ticket had been issued she could do nothing about it and that I would have to appeal it with Parkforce.

 

 

In this situation where I don't have a ticket, have already applied for a parking permit and have no alternate way of getting to work and no other area to park in other than the hospital multi-story, can I safely ignore the notice in line with the advice for other PCN's on this site?

 

I'm ****ed off with all the inefficiencies of the current system and if I can successfully appeal the ticket will be letting all of the other trainees in the region and hospital know how to go about it!

 

Is there anything else that I should be aware of, or can I ignore the PCN until the letter comes through the door and then deal with it using the normal templates?

 

Cheers,

 

TakeItBaby

[diskmandave]

Hi, welcome to the forums. Thank You for the work you do for us.

 

This is a private matter and NOT a PCN as you say in your post..

 

The standard advise here is to completely ignore Private Parking Invoices,

don't write, don't call, don't do anything... Hold strong and ignore..

 

There is NO appeals procedure, appeals are dismissed regardless of the

circumstances as the charge is revenue for the company concerned and

they will not give it up easily..

 

Spread the word amongst your fellow trainee's..

 

Good luck, best wishes.. Dave..

[letshelp]

Hi Doc,

 

Davi is spot on, appeals are non existent, just ignore the clowns, when they realise you are not paying they will give up and go away.

regards

[Rooster-UK]

If you are unsure about ignoring them, just send any correspondence to us and we'll ignore them for you!

[Al27]

and if I can successfully appeal the ticket will be letting all of the other trainees in the region and hospital know how to go about it!

 

No chance!

 

There is no appeals procedure. Just ignore them.

[crem]

if I can successfully appeal the ticket will be letting all of the other trainees in the region and hospital know how to go about it!

 

No you can't appeal it (well not successfully anyway) but please feel free to let all the other trainees know how they should be dealing with them by referring them here to CAG.

[takeitbaby]

Thanks for the advice, guys. I'm planning on ignoring the ticket completely as per your advice. Just a few questions so I understand how my situation fits in with the standard advice:

 

1) Does an NHS hospital car park count as public or private land, and does this make a difference if the ticket was issued by a private company anyway?

 

2) I understand that if a bailiff comes knocking then I can send them packing as they don't have any legal authority to do anything unless I invite them in or they have a court order following a hearing I must be made aware of. However, if I get a phone call from a third party debt collection agency on their behalf then:

i) What do/can I say to them? If I've ignored everything up to this point then I technically haven't disputed that I was the driver as well as the registered keeper. By saying anything to the debt collection agency along the lines of "this debt is in dispute" does that mean I accept that a contract existed and that their claim is acknowledged but I'm disputing it?

ii) Is there any data protection legislation that I can use to ask them how they obtained my phone number or other contact details as I did not give my information to the DVLA or any other third party for this purpose.

iii) If the hospital trust owns the land I was parked on, can Parkforce approach them for details of my employment there? Technically I'm employed by a different trust (as are all the trainees in the region), so any verification that I even work there (e.g. as opposed to I was there as a patient) would have to come from my department rather than HR, or they would have to approach my employing trust (an entirely different organisation).

iv) Can I be summonsed to court due to being the registered keeper as opposed to the driver? My understanding from reading the boards is that the contract exists between the car park owners and the driver, not the registered keeper, and as Parkforce aren't a government agency I'm under no legal obligation to respond to any requests for information by them. Can they issue a court summons to the registered keeper if they haven't proven I was also the driver? I'm aware they will probably send some bluff and bluster letter or five, but if they haven't proven I was driving can they (or more properly the courts) issue a summons to the registered keeper as a named/interested party?

v) If it does go to court and I don't attend for whatever reason, can a judgement be passed in absentia or via some online mechanism I've heard alluded to?

 

3) If I don't get my car park pass authorised for whatever reason, will I still be able to park in the same place and employ the same strategies in future? ;-)

 

Its small things like this that are making the NHS incredibly unpopular with most people who work in it!! I usually end up coming in about an hour early in the morning and leave about an hour late, don't/can't claim the overtime but see it as part of my professional duty to do so. So when some small-minded administator or arse with a pad of tickets does something like give out crappy tickets, it really makes my **** boil!!

 

 

Thanks,

 

TIB

Edited January 23, 2010 by takeitbaby
Thought of another question I added in on my last draft before going back a page and losing the original text before sending!

[Al27]

1. Private companies can only issue private invoices on private land. To do so on public highway would be an offence.

 

2. Don't confuse bailiffs with debt collectors. You're right that DCs have no powers. The chances of them calling are minimal. It's not financially viable to travel to people's houses when chances are they won't be in and they know they can't do anything even if they were in. It would cost hundreds in petrol each week. The only people who waste their time doing this are Capita (TV Licensing). They have no powers but the tax payer stumps up for all their wasted time and petrol!

 

i) You don't have to say anything to them.

ii) DVLA will give out addresses to anybody citing 'reasonable cause'. It's just their way of making millions each year.

iii) Could do, but that would be a lot of effort. You're giving them too much credit - they literally sit in an office all day sending out letters and cashing cheques. Why bother doing any more when there are enough mugs who voluntarily send in money. More's to the point, even if they know who you are it doesn't suddenly make the charge enforceable. It's an unenforceable penalty for alleged breach of contract.

iv) anybody can sue anybody. If you weren't the driver that's the only defence you need. If you were the driver, the charge would be legally unenforceable. Do you see why 99.9% of tickets don't go to court and Parkforce have never ever taken anyone to court?

v) it won't, but it's not compulsory to turn up. Even in the 0.1% of cases that go to court, most of the time it's the parking company that doesn't turn up.

 

3.) In theory, yes. The record is 200 tickets and £40,000 I believe.

[takeitbaby]

Hi all, quick update.

 

I've had the form letters through from Parkforce as expected (and ignored as advised).

 

Now have had a letter through from Debt Recovery Plus Limited. Reads as follows:

 

Our Client Name: Parkforce

Outstanding amount £135.00

Ticket/Ref number: *****

Our Reference: ******

Vehicle Registration Number: *******

Contravention Date: **********

 

[Name and address]

 

Dear *,

 

Despite previous requests for payment the above Parking Charge Notice remains unpaid. Our client has now instructed us to recover the above monies.

 

It is essential that you settle this account without delay or contact our offices on 0844 561 0965 to discuss your proposals for payment.

 

As a member of the British Parking Association, (BPA) and its Approved Operators Scheme (AOS) we adhere to its code of practice. Therefore we now invite you to declare whether or not you were the driver involved in the above contravention or to disclose the identity of the driver so we can avoid pursuing the wrong person. If you choose to not contact us on this invitation and in the absence of any other evidence, we will continue to pursue the vehicle keeper.

 

If you fail to make a full payment or make contact with your proposal for payment, this account will be passed to our litigation team and legal recovery action may commence. A typical case will be referred to the County Courts for an application for a County Court Judgement. If we are successful in our application, enforcement options will include:

 

AN ATTACHMENT OF EARNINGS ORDER

COUNTY COURT BAILIFFS BEING INSTRUCTED

YOUR ITEMS BEING SOLD AT PUBLIC AUCTION TO PAY THE JUDGEMENT.

 

It will also be requested that the court award statutory interest, court costs and legal fees which will significantly increase the amount outstanding. Any court judgement lasts for 6 years and may severely affect your ability to obtain credit in the future.

 

You can view a selection of CCJ's we have succesfully obtained against people who have ignored our correspondance on our website Debt Recovery Plus Limited, Uk Debt Recovery and Trace service

 

 

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Claire Robinson

Collections Manager

 

[letter ends]

 

 

I'm still all for ignoring it and waiting for a court summons, but have a relative who is getting twitchy at the moment. Looked at the site and there is a short list of names/companies on the granted CCJ list but no specifics. I'm still skeptical.

 

Does this change anything?

 

Cheers,

 

TIB

[DBC]

In a word "no". the above is just part of the threatogram letter-chain. Some people would class it as demanding money with menaces.

[takeitbaby]

Just had a thought that may be an interesting legal point after doing some reading - not sure if anyone could confirm or rebut this, but it may help people who are attending hospital appointments or work there.

 

If the parking area is on hospital grounds it must be private property for the parking invoices to be served.

 

If it is private property then the relevant tort that covers parking on private land is based on the assumption of trespass and proving damage.

 

If you are employed by, or have an appointment with said hospital, then you have implied or documented permission to be on the land - therefore how can you trespass?

 

 

 

Any mileage in this?

 

Ta!

[letshelp]

Hi all, quick update.

 

I've had the form letters through from Parkforce as expected (and ignored as advised).

 

Now have had a letter through from Debt Recovery Plus Limited. Reads as follows:

 

Our Client Name: Parkforce

Outstanding amount £135.00

Ticket/Ref number: *****

Our Reference: ******

Vehicle Registration Number: *******

Contravention Date: **********

 

[Name and address]

 

Dear *,

 

Despite previous requests for payment the above Parking Charge Notice remains unpaid. Our client has now instructed us to recover the above monies.

 

Good luck with that!

 

It is essential that you settle this account without delay or contact our offices on 0844 561 0965 to discuss your proposals for payment.

 

:lol:

 

As a member of the British Parking Association, (BPA) and its Approved Operators Scheme (AOS) we adhere to its code of practice. Therefore we now invite you to declare whether or not you were the driver involved in the above contravention or to disclose the identity of the driver so we can avoid pursuing the wrong person.

 

:lol::lol:

 

If you choose to not contact us on this invitation and in the absence of any other evidence, we will continue to pursue the vehicle keeper.

 

:lol:

 

If you fail to make a full payment or make contact with your proposal for payment, this account will be passed to our litigation team and legal recovery action may commence. A typical case will be referred to the County Courts for an application for a County Court Judgement. :lol:, enforcement options will include:

 

AN ATTACHMENT OF EARNINGS ORDER

COUNTY COURT BAILIFFS BEING INSTRUCTED

YOUR ITEMS BEING SOLD AT PUBLIC AUCTION TO PAY THE JUDGEMENT.

 

It will also be requested that the court award statutory interest, court costs and legal fees which will significantly increase the amount outstanding. Any court judgement lasts for 6 years and may severely affect your ability to obtain credit in the future.

 

Yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

You can view a selection of CCJ's we have succesfully obtained against people who have ignored our correspondance on our website Debt Recovery Plus Limited, Uk Debt Recovery and Trace service

 

How many are real? How many are set ups? How many from people who have ignored them completely. If it was that easy you would get 1 letter then court action end off.

 

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Claire Robinson

Collections Manager

 

[letter ends]

 

 

I'm still all for ignoring it and waiting for a court summons, but have a relative who is getting twitchy at the moment. Looked at the site and there is a short list of names/companies on the granted CCJ list but no specifics. I'm still skeptical.

 

Does this change anything?

 

NO

 

Cheers,

 

TIB

regards