Advice on ongoing vehicle problems.

[heliosuk]

Hi James,

 

I just do not get this. Have you or have you not called New Holland or written to them to complain? I think HQ is in Basildon, but certainly factory is. Can the dealer give you evidence that they have asked for assistance??

[james Rx8]

We did phone new holland a few times but each time they basically told us that the dealer wanted another chance to fix it and that was as far as we could get with them. They were not prepared to do anything else.

 

James

[james Rx8]

Spoke to the dealer and it seems now that the clutch for our tractor has not made the pedal any better so they have found out that the clutch from another model will fit and after trying that they think they have sorted it.

 

The problem I can see now is that I do not think they have found and sorted any problem but just covered it up by fitting a part which is designed for another model. No fault has been found which would explain the problems we have had, therefore the fault must still exist.

 

The dealer wanted 1 last chance to fix this problem so where would we stand now that we have been very patient and let them do what they requested. They have been in talks with new holland this time which is why they say it has taken nearly 3 weeks.

 

James

[heliosuk]

Hi James,

 

I do not understand this or New Hollands position, response and that of the dealer. There has to be something wrong.

 

Respectfully, I'd take the issue now to a solicitor and ask them to write to New Holland requesting that they get involved, to fix the issue once and for all. For the one off fee it could well get you a proper result. I fully understand your issues and will support you on this but you've got to start putting the boxing gloves on.

 

Kind regards.

[james Rx8]

We have been told that new holland are involved and this is why it has taken so long to change a clutch. Before they took it back we were assured that they would do their best to fix and when I asked what would happen if they couldn't they said they would look at taking the tractor back and replacing it. I take it they think this counts as a fix, I don't agree.

 

James

[heliosuk]

New Holland should be controlling the complaint. Your statement above indicates that they have said if they can't fix it then they will take it back. By definition or though not actually implied I read this as if we can't fix it New Holland will replace the tractor. What with though remains to be seen.

 

Was this from New Holland or the dealer?

 

I have to admit that I'm getting very uncomfortable with the posts you make as I cannot see that New Holland have not picked up on the number of clutch changes or warranty claims submitted. I know some of the engineers in Basildon and they aint the type of people to ignore the issue so is there anything else we need to know?

 

Sorry to say it but something sounds very odd about this one.

[james Rx8]

I spoke to the owner of the dealership and he told me that he had only become aware of the problem 2 weeks before and it was him that told me he would be sorted or replaced now he is involved. They have deff been in contact with new holland and have sent pictures etc and been given advice. We contacted them aswell but didn't get much of a response from them, they kept agreeing with what we said to then turn around and say they want a chance to fix. Should we have to accept it back knowing that no fault has been found?

 

The dealer did tell us that we should have kicked up a fuss sooner.

 

The silly thing is that we did offer to trade the tractor back into them but the offer they gave us would have seen us over £9000 down for just 500 hours use, we were prepared to pay £4000 plus the extra to upgrade.

 

James

[scaniaman]

James, i have been following your posts with some interest as my first career was in agriculture, and father was workshop manager at local "Fergie" depot.

We seem to live in an age where every company has a name change every few years, and with that in mind is New Holland not just todays name for Ford tractors?

If this is the case, I don't see why NH themselves have not stepped in at an early date, which would have been my prefered option.

Do you know if your local agent has done any checks on the gearbox? Is there any undue vibration when tractor is running?

Heliosuk---Grey Import?????????????????????????????

[heliosuk]

I'm beginning to think so scania. There is something seriously wrong here. Given the amount of changes on said vehicle it is bound to have popped up. I just don't understand that the dealer has supposedly asked for help and the direct response is give another chace. For them to react in such a way makes me question what it is.

 

It coild be a dealer importing outside of UK guidelines but whicheverway you look at it, from an engineering perspective this should not have occurred.

 

I know some of the engineers in the Basildon factory and they'd be horrified to learn of this so I don't undertand it. There has to be something wrong for thwm to walk away.

[james Rx8]

This tractor was not made in the uk. When we purchased it the salesman said it was made in the fiat factory in italy. It is the new holland TD range which is also the same as the case JX range.

scaniaman - the drive on the tractor - i wouldn't say there is any noticable vibration on the tractor.

 

I know it doesn't totally make sense but we just don't seem to be getting anywhere with this. We are totally fed up and now even with a loan tractor we have jobs that need doing which it isn't suitable for.

 

James

[heliosuk]

Ah Ha,

 

Is it uk spec tractor that is recgonised with new holland . If not then bye bye any warranty or come back.

 

Boy is this going to get into a ding dong!

[james Rx8]

Well it was sold to us through a new holland dealer as a uk tractor so it had better be.

 

james

[Conniff]

Although this does not come under the consumer regulations, it does, nontheless, still enjoy the benefits of implied decription and fit for purpose.

 

Dig out that contract of sale James and note what exculsions have been added in case they might be required at some time.

[james Rx8]

We have the original invoice plus the service folder and a installation review form, I cannot see we have had anything with any exculsions. They have always agreed there is a problem and are not running away from it but we have had enough with it now.

 

Should we have to accept it back knowing they haven't fitted the clutch designed for the tractor and therefore not found the fault??? If we are within our rights to refuse it we can now just not accept it back.

 

James

[scaniaman]

Heliosuk, i am years out of date with tractors, but i seem to recollect that when they stopped the Ford logos, they called the tractors by an Italian name (Fiatagari????????). This all came about because of some sort of amalgamation between Ford and Iveco, wherebye some trucks and agricultural equipment lost the Ford badging. It is therefore perfectly possible that this machine was built in Italy, or in any other Fiat/ Iveco factory but for the UK market. New Holland is a newish name to tractors but is well renowned for agri equipment----used to make an excellent baler, from where the name grew in prominence.

What controls this clutch? cable or hydraulics---don't expect it is direct from pedal in this day and age?

[heliosuk]

It's an interesting one scania. Ford sold it out to Ivecco when they off loaded the European lorry side of things. The it went IH i think and then NH. In the times I've been past there, 5 years ago now I think I saw red Case tractors there. I think overall it's still ultimately a Fiat buyout still in place.

 

I've had the same conversation with James and he tells me it's a cable operated one. I think what he means is the cable operates the master cylinder. It has to be hydarulic operation I'd say. I just can't see otherwise.

 

I find it very odd that they are relying on the dealer and the way James has had this problem for so long.

 

The problem is I think, that the legal options are limited as are very different on commercial vehicles to cars. From an engineering perspective, it's no different but on a bigger heavier/scale.

 

It's sad he's too far away for us to go and look at as I'm convinced a visit to the offending vehicle would sort out the issue very quickly once and for all and given the number of clutch changes it has had. Well why are NH sending the equivalent of me to go and have a look??

 

Very odd indeed.

[heliosuk]

Update.

 

I'm now the virtual owner of a NH Tractor so I've looked at the parts book of my hypothetical tractor and indeed it is a cable operated one. Interestingly the clutch set up is identical to the very, very early leyland/Austin A series type. Can't remember the name at the moment as it's late. Cable run is short with a 90 odd degree curve.

 

The parts list implies you can change individual bits but is available as an assembly as well.

 

James,

 

Is it possible to confirm that the dealer has changed the assembly as opposed to individual parts?

 

The nature of the design means they could be replacing the wrong faulty bit as opposed to the assembly which includes the flywheel. In warranty repairs it's always the cheapest option that the dealer has to go with, not necissarilly the best.

[james Rx8]

As you already know our tractor is a 57reg td90. The dealer has told us they split a T5030 to find that the clutch was compatible and therefore fittet that. The haven't mentioned changing anything else. They did find a loose finger that was 3/4 out but this didn't improve things.

 

I spoke to the dealer yesterday to say we were still not happy with their fix and he didn't want to tell me anything untill he checked his facts on monday.

 

James

[IS IT ME?]

Iveco again.

I had a truck that had a fault which meant the lights and all the alarms came on and I could not use it, complained to Iveco as well but nothing ever happened.

There only answer was its the wrong light bulb which has been put in! just this could stop a truck working!

So we could be sued for not being able to do our contract.

This is now some 3 years ago and are now only doing some thing about it in the courts.

[heliosuk]

Hi James,

 

I've checked the parts listings of NH and the 2 clutch's are very different. Whilst they might be compatible they are not the same. I've gone through both all varients of TD90 and T5030 and none of the part numbers match.

 

The assembly they should be fitting is 5092796 which is the one that applies to your tractor according to model year. In fact from the assembly breakdown, the parts are different, very different between the two varients. Gawd knows why they have done this.

 

You need to tell them to order the above assembly to get rid of the issue once and for all or to at least set a base line to get to the root cause of the issue.

[james Rx8]

Thankyou very much for that info. I will hit them with that tomorrow and see if they take note. It seems they split a t5030 tractor to see if the clutch would fit, why would they do this when they could just simply ask new holland?

 

It is a shame you are too far away as it seems you would be able to sort it out.

 

Thanks again, I will update again tomorrow.

 

James

[heliosuk]

You need to be quite clear on this James. You must insist on them fitting the correct ASSEMBLY for your tractor. Not ****ing about with supposed compatible parts. I can't fathom out why they are doing this unless they are trying to cover up something they've done in the past as I've seen this before.

 

As I have said before, I think they might have been changing the wrong failed part and to get to the root cause you need to have a base line to work from.To change individual parts and then start putting in compatible parts blurs the issue and is a sign of desperation.

 

The modus operandi so to speak is to set the base line as they have confused it already. Hopefully with fitting the assembly there will not be any more issues but if there are then it enables them to remove and analyse what has gone wrong if anything. If that proves clear then it enables them to narrow the possibilities and eventually find exactly what causes it.

 

One of my big gripes about dealers of just not cars and obviously commercial vehicles these days is that they often try to fix the secondary problem without realising that there might be a primary cause.

[james Rx8]

Thanks again, I have printed this out and will keep it with me for when they ring back.

 

The problem we have is that we have to take their word for it that they have done what they have said they have done. They could tell us that parts have been changed but we have no proof of the work. They could well be covering up something they have done in the past, that does make sense.

 

Do you mind me asking who you work for? Its a shame you are not in charge of new holland.

 

James

[scaniaman]

Late night thoughts!!!Cable operated clutches normally replaced rods. But where there are nasty bends involved, a cable does a better job---no hydraulics involved. Now mad as it may seem, would it be possible for the cable to stick at "almost full out point" wherebye the clutch is getting enough grip to work the tractor but not allowing the pressure plate to achieve 100% force. This could, at higher revs, cause a small amount of clutch slip not noticable by the driver. Also, i asked about vibration. The thinking behind this is if there is a fault in the input shaft or gearbox, undue stresses could be inserted upon the clutch. (bent shaft, bearing not properly seated etc). Just late hight thoughts.!!!

[james Rx8]

We now have the tractor back and the dealer has insisted that it is fixed and the fix has been approved by new holland and would have a 12 month warranty, basically what they have done is fit a clutch from another model.

 

The pedal is lighter than before but I am still not convinced that it is fixed as it is still heavier than others we have tried, will have to try it and see if it lasts.

 

Thankyou to everyone on here for the advice that has been given, its great to know that there is always people willing to help.

 

Cheers

James