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    • In the autumn of 2020, I decided to change energy supplier from British Gas to EDF. This went through with no apparent problem but after approximately two weeks, I received a letter from EDF saying "Sorry you're leaving us". I contacted EDF to say that I was not leaving and was told not to worry about it, that they would resolve it and to carry on with monthly payments to EDF.    Approximately 2 weeks later, I received a text message from EDF to say, "Sorry you're leaving us". I contacted EDF again to say I was not leaving and was again told not to worry and that they would sort it out. Two weeks later I had a third message, "Sorry you're leaving us...". I contacted EDF again, but this time raised a complaint because it was becoming stressful and annoying. I asked them to explain why this kept happening. After some investigation by EDF, I was told that Scottish Power was trying to "erroneously take over" my gas supply. I confirmed that I wanted to remain with EDF and did not want to move to Scottish Power. I was advised to forward any bill sent by Scottish Power to EDF so that they could deal with it, and not pay it. However, I have never received any bill from Scottish Power until July 2022.   I was then contacted again by EDF to say that Scottish Power was trying to take over my supply because my gas meter was registered at my neighbour's address, on the energy suppliers' national database. I requested that EDF change the details for me so that I could remain an EDF customer but was told that only the existing supplier could change the details and that I would have to contact Scottish Power and request that they change the details. I reminded EDF that I had never asked Scottish Power to supply me and that as my current provider, EDF should take on this responsibility, but I was told on a number of occasions that EDF could not do this and that I would have to contact Scottish Power myself.   I have since learned that I should never have been told this. Ofgem states that if a supplier tries to erroneously transfer a supply, the two suppliers involved should communicate with each other to resolve the problem as soon as possible, and not involve the consumer. However, this is where the real problems started. I contacted Scottish Power at least 20 times over the course of 2 months, by email, online chat and telephone and spent a considerable amount of time trying to resolve this issue. The main problem was that Scottish Power refused to discuss it with me because "I did not have an account with Scottish Power". I explained on numerous occasions that I did not want an account with Scottish Power and that I just wanted them to change the location of my gas meter on the national database, but they persistently refused. Scottish Power was generally very poor at contacting me, I was doing most of the running. My neighbour, who is supplied by Scottish Power and has been for many years, said that this has been an issue in the past but Scottish Power has never resolved it. He said that when I asked EDF to take the supply back from Scottish Power, his supply was also erroneously transferred to EDF against his wishes, causing even more problems. During this occasion, Scottish Power compensated my neighbour but still refused to assist me.   I have evidence of some of the correspondence between me and Scottish Power but not all because much was over the phone and on online chat. Each time I contacted Scottish Power a new member of staff dealt with it and so they had to record the same notes each time, considerably lengthening the process. I asked if Scottish Power could allocate someone to own the complaint but because I did not have an account with Scottish Power, this was not an option. After numerous emails to Scottish Power from my neighbour, who was trying to assist with the situation - sending his meter details, my meter details and asking that the database be updated with my address - he was asked to send photos of my meter to Scottish Power. I had already been asked this by Scottish Power and had duly sent them but received no response. My neighbour then forwarded the photos by his email to Scottish Power and they replied asking him to ask me to re-send the photos directly, which I did for a second time. This was the last correspondence I had with Scottish Power about the matter. They did not contact me again.   EDF contacted me to say that they had concluded the matter from their end and requested that they close the complaint, to which I agreed. A meter reader visited sometime after to read both meters and I (naively) assured myself that the details had been changed and that EDF had resumed supply. My bill increased, and my meters were then routinely read by a visiting meter reader every quarter. My last correspondence with Scottish Power was on 9th November 2020, when I emailed the photos of my meter for the second time.   Twenty months later, towards the end of July 2022, I was on holiday with my family. I came home on 13th August to find 6 letters on the doormat from Scottish Power demanding £2134.89 for gas supply. They are addressed to "The Occupier" so they have obviously not referred to my previous correspondence or attempted to ever resolve the initial request to change my details. This is contrary to recommendations made by Ofgem's "Erroneous Transfers" paper produced in 2016. One of the letters even says, "Welcome to your new home" as though they have no knowledge of the correspondence 2 years ago. I have received another bill from Scottish Power today demanding payment and threatening referral to a debt collection agency if it is not paid. The above Ofgem paper states that erroneous takeovers should be dealt with by the two companies concerned and not by the consumer at any stage. But in my case, it has been me doing all the running, all the phoning, emailing, talking online, etc. Neither supplier has really done that much and I believe that EDF should never have told me that I should try and resolve this with Scottish Power; and when I contacted Scottish Power, they should also have taken ownership of the problem jointly with EDF and resolved it directly with EDF.   I have taken legal advice and been advised that as this is a dispute between two energy suppliers rather than between myself and a supplier, it is more appropriate for me to contact both suppliers, summarise past actions undertaken by all parties, and request that the supply be transferred back to my original supplier. This sounds hunky dory but doesn't actually help. Two questions arise in my mind... 1. Do i have to pay the bill at all given that it is addressed to "The occupier"?  2. Should I provide my name in my complaint (not yet sent) or simply refer to myself as "The Occupier"? 2. I know I can refer to back-billing guidance but my instinct tells me I shouldn't have to pay any of this bill because the supply was taken over without my consent, I tried numerous times to resolve it to no effect, and was led to believe that I was then paying for the gas due to the actions of both companies. Does anybody think I have a case here and any suggestions about how to pursue it?   Many thanks if you have managed to read this far. Even more thanks if you have any advice :-)  
    • several other threads here too they will give up  just retail loss scammers, nothing ever goes back to the retailers anyway straight in their pocket straight down the pub!!   just like DCA's.   dont forget your cars v5c!! too   you MUST write to anyone one your credit file or banks etc, esp if you have debts that dont show that you might have last used/paid within say 7 yrs esle you'll get backdoor CCJ's.
    • Our produce is likely to be smaller, odd-looking, or even leathery after the hot, dry weather.View the full article
    • Yeah haha I had to do my drivers license literally last week, had completely forgot. Thanks DX,  that's great if they are powerless, but will they ever stop sending letters? I've gotten two just in the last month.
    • stunning aurora going on 1st of the season ...red alert pix from as far south as nth london!   see the glendale aurora APP or Facebook.   ray to 25deg here in far nth scotland   dx  
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Advice on ongoing vehicle problems.


james Rx8
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Hi,

I am new to this site and looked for similar threads but noting the same. I am hoping that someone on here may be able to give some advice regarding a problem with a faulty tractor. Its not a car but I assume any consumer rights would be the same with most vehicles.

 

We purchased a new tractor with a loader in 2007, when delivered we commented that the clutch pedal didn't feel right and it was adjusted at the first service, we were told it would improve with time. As time went on it slowly got worse to the stage that the tractor wasn't fit to use, the clutch pedal got so hard that we had to stand out of the seat to press the pedal. Under warranty the dealer came and fitted a new clutch cable which didn't improve so they then fitted a new clutch which involves splitting the tractor in 2. This was better but after quite a few months it became harder to press and unusable again so they collected it to fit a second new clutch and cable. The tractor is now back to the same again and comparing to similar machines it is far harder than it should be.

 

The dealer have been good about it and said that they will stand by it but we just don't seem to be getting anywhere. I thought I would get some opinions as to what options we should have now. The tractor is over 2 years old but it is an ongoing issue and after all this time still can't be sorted. It has only now turned 500 hours which is very low, it looks totally as new as everything we have is looked after. What should our demands be at this stage???

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

James

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Thanks for the informative link.

 

Would this still be the case now that it is over 2 years old, bearing in mind that the problem has been there since new?

Thinking that should be able to say we want replacement and pay a fair amount for the use that we have had out of it.

 

James

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Hi,

It is a new holland tractor and we have already compared it to others:

1) another of the same age and model at the dealers, much lighter and easy to use.

2) a newer model of the same range, again much lighter.

3) a case tractor which is the same but with different badges, you guessed it perfectly ok.

4) our other tractors and opinions of other farmers who say that they wouldn't be able to work for long with it.

 

As far as I know the dealer have been getting advice from new holland but I do not know what their exact thoughts are.

 

This has gone on for far to long and we just don't have any faith in any future attempts to repair. We have an old Y reg (1983) tractor which is still going strong so should expect a lot more of a new one.

 

Cheers

James

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can i ask if you don't mind answering, how much you paid for the tractor, and did you pay cash or was it on a hire purchase agreement?

 

for it to be coming up to it's third clutch replacement in just over two years , to me in my opinion shows that there is an inherent fault with it and by replacing the clutch and cable every time this happens is not curing it.

 

i would mention to the dealer your in the opinion of now wanting to reject the tractor and pay a fair amount both of you can agree on for the use you have had from it , and that you no longer have any faith left that the problem will be rectified, and suggest wanting a replacement. i would mention all that to see what their response will be , i don't know how much tractors cost but they can't be cheap, and if they value your custom they might be extremely helpful towards you, "tread the water "so to speak, it will give you an idea on which options you will be left with.

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Thanks again for all the advice above:)

 

heliosuk - it is a clutch cable, the dealer have suggested that they could fit a hydraulic clutch but I would be afraid that this is just covering up a problem as it doesn't seem to be with the clutch or cable.

 

MegaCraggy - It cost somewhere like 22,000 but with a loader which we would keep and put on another. It was paid for with with part trade-in and the rest financed by ourselves. You have suggested what I was thinking with paying a fair amount to get back to new. Will give them a ring later and see what the response is.

 

Cheers

James

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Contacted the dealer today and the service manager said they would not take the tractor back but will get the salesman to come out and look at it next week.

 

Today we have tested it and it takes 90lb - 41kg to press the pedal down, compared to 49lb - 22kg for a very similar tractor of the same make and design with the same setup.

 

What would our legal rights be? Hopefully the salesman that sold it to us will be more helpful.

 

James

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Contacted the dealer today and the service manager said they would not take the tractor back but will get the salesman to come out and look at it next week.

 

Today we have tested it and it takes 90lb - 41kg to press the pedal down, compared to 49lb - 22kg for a very similar tractor of the same make and design with the same setup.

 

What would our legal rights be? Hopefully the salesman that sold it to us will be more helpful.

 

James

 

Hi James,

You need to be very careful with comparrisons and the only real way to do this is with a like for like test of similar age and hours run. The design might look identical but the engineering could be completely different. It's a bit like for want of a better example, comparing the same year and engined Mondeo with a Dual Mass Fly wheel with the same car that has a traditional set up.

 

The legalities that people are commenting on, whilst usefull, might not apply in your case as the various acts that cover consumers don't always cover items used on a commercial basis which I believe your case may fall under.

 

The next thing that puzzles me is why the dealer has not sought advice from the tech support dept in Basildon. One thing I do know is that if the clutch has been replaced 3 times under warranty, this would have sounded alarm bells. Have you contacted them for a start?

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I do understand about the comparisons but the tractor it has been compared to is the same setup, even that aside the pedal is far too hard to use. Hopefully we will get somewhere next week with the salesman.

 

Haven't contacted tech support but will do if we don't get anywhere next week.

 

Cheers

James

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James,

 

You need to log this issue with the tech department asap. The salesman aint going to do any favours for you. Log it with the manufactuer in Basildon and take it from there. What's the salesman going to do apart from get you to buy another with a reduced trade in because it's now used. And who's to say it won't be the same?

 

Seriously, take it up with Basildon. Forget the dealer now for a bit.

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i understand your point heliosuk regarding him being a consumer or a business, he needs to look at the agreement or contract he signed at the time off buying and see what their exclusion clauses are, even then he might have some redress because of the unfair contracts terms act, "excluding liability for defective or poor-quality goods is also permitted only if it is reasonable", while the uct act does not define what is reasonable the courts might.

he states that this problem has been there since they bought it , had 2 clutch replacements with the third on the way , and only done 500 hours.

what reasonable hours should he have been looking at if this problem was not occuring?

if i were him i would seek legal advice on this, because like you have stated it could be defined as a business purchase, but in my opinion i would seriously consider suing for damages, he has been very reasonable by letting 2 clutches be replaced in the hope it would fix it, he knows fitting a 3rd will do the same thing, and they have suggested fitting a Hydraulic clutch, you have to ask why, do they actually know this would fix it, because if all the other tractors of the same make and model have a clutch cable without any problems, then you have to ask ,why should he let them fit a hydraulic one ? and six months down the line it comes back again.

it's a good idea to get in touch with the Manufacturer and hopefully they might help, but if not i would feel his only option would be to sue for damages , and 22,000 is alot of money and he deserves better than what he has had at this present time.

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With respect megga, it seems to me that you are either a pub lawyer or a pub engineer.

 

Your last post is flawed in that it was me who questioned the hydraulic clutch situation and this was posted to get a technical perspective on the case.

 

What I do know, and this is from experience, not just on these forums but again form experience in having to investigate and mediate in issues such as this is it is not always clear cut. On the balance of probabilities there is a problem with the clutch assembly but having said that we don't know the use. There are many reasons why it could be wrong but there are many reasons as to why it might occur.

 

For example, and stating my opinion at this moment in time, it's like a haulier buying a truck to do drop offs on a day to day basis and then expecting the vehicle to do international runs and coming back with a claim for poor fuel consumption.

 

Now I'm not saying this is the case but what I do know as an engineer involved in these said issues is that if the manufactuer is aware of this then they would be homing in on it and it this that I don't understand.

 

There is something in this post that does not make sense to me at the moment and whilst what you say is true that there MIGHT be recourse under law, this is very different as is a commercial vehicle as opposed to the usual road vehicles we deal with.

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i am neither a lawyer or an engineer, but i am a person who went into a court of law against a team of solicitors and won hands down , who thought that because i had little understanding of law presumed i was of a lower Intellect than them and i am surprised that a man like yourself who is clearly educated would make comments like that.

 

i was not questioning you on the subject of the hydraulics , it was my own personal thoughts on the matter.

 

At the end of the day if he cannot get any satisfaction from the manufacturer or salesperson , he should seek legal advice, because whether it's consumer, business, commercial, everybody has statutory rights under the sale of goods act, it does not matter if it is a tractor or a pen , if he can prove that there was an inherent fault with this at the time off purchase and because off the time scale he will have to do so , then his only option might be the courts.

 

and you are correct that his rights will be different , but he still does have them rights, it's the law.

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Mega, I certainly did not mean to offend you and you should be congratulated for your achievements. If I have then you have my sincere apologies. You are bang on in that the OP does have legal rights and the right to redress/remedy.

 

However what is odd here is that we have had 3 cluch assemby changes under warranty and the manufactuer hasn't questioned it.

 

Personnaly I think the op has to move this on from the dealer to the manufactuer and there is no evidence to support any of this which is odd.

 

As an employee of a manufactuer I can guarantee they would be on this particular case just by picking up the warranty data coming through, so it seems odd that this hasn't happened.

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I too think that the manufacturer should have been involved by now. I will see what they have to say on tuesday and go from there.

Could I now say that I have no faith in future repairs and want to exchange for another? (paying for the use of course). This is our only loader tractor and last year right in the middle of harvest the tractor became unsafe to use, luckily another dealer selling a different make actually lent us a tractor. I wouldn't want this to happen again in 6 months time, and now after all this time I have totally no faith left in the thing.

Yesterday we got someone else to try it and they said they wouldn't be able to use it, at this point we don't have a choice because it is required to feed and clean out animals.

Thanks for all your advice and opinions I will keep you updated.

 

James

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you certainly do not have to apologize, i can see how my post could have looked like it was questioning you, and that was not my intention, i do enjoy reading your posts because it is apparent that you are a very Knowledgeable and articulate person.

i see the point you are now making regarding the Manufacturer, whereas i did not before. i certainly hope he can get some redress from them and avoid the expense and time of taking the matter to court.

as you stated the law is defined differently for consumers and business/commercial.

court cases can be a nerve wracking experience , and my case revolved around a firm of solicitors who were Incompetent regarding a legal matter that they were handling for me, and i had to take them to court to prove that they had been, and what i learned that day is , it was not how i came across but that i proved my case, i spent many days and nights pouring over documents and legal letters, and with sheer determination anything is possible, and sometimes you think "am i doing the right thing" but you have to be strong and believe in yourself, and in this day and age too many people get ripped off and conned and i find it unjust, people like james and thousands of others pay out so much money on items, and then have a mountain to climb trying to get any redress back.

so i am hoping that he succeeds on this matter and gets some redress from the manufacturer and if not , then he must consider his options of going to court.

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Not forgotten the update - need to wait till tuesday now to see what they are prepared to do, they have admitted that there is a problem with the tractor and they don't know what else can be done to fix it so hopefully can all be sorted soon. I will update soon.

 

James

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Dealer has only come up with a stupid offer to trade the tractor back in against a new one but going on their values they are saying it has depreciated by £9,000 for just 500 hours use. Rejected this and contacted new holland who said they would sort it and contact dealer. That was over 3 days ago now and still not been contacted back by either. I am willing to pay a fair amount but they are not allowing anything to compensate for the trouble we have had, we wouldn't be looking to trade in and take dig hit on depreciation if there wasn't a fault.

 

Where should this be taken from here? Not sure now what the next step would be. They have agreed there is a fault they cannot fix but won't come up with a solution.

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

 

James

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Hi James,

 

I can seriously appreciate the concern you have over this. To a certain extent I can't understand why this has not been picked up earlier by New Holland. The fact that NH are now aware and looking into it is very significant. The delay is not unusual and could be more but you need to chase with a nice mannered call to find the progress.

 

What they will be looking at is the warranty data and analysing first. It can get very complex but if done properly will highlight issues that might not be apparent.

 

The dealer response is to be expected and I have some issues with why they have not reported it in earlier to NH.

 

Keep on them with a call every working day to see the progress.

 

The issue can be fixed but unless the dealer helps them it does not help you.

 

I can also assure you that NH will take the case seriously as they are very aware of the legal implications as regards commercial vehicles, which a tractor comes under, unlike general cars.

 

Give it a few more days but would reitterate keep on their case.

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Thanks for your reply.

The dealer has assured us that it will be sorted but it does seem to be taking a long time. To be honest it has got to the stage that we no longer want it to be fixed, we want a replacement (paying a fair amount) or a refund. We purchased a brand new tractor and have had nothing but trouble and hastle, it has been "fixed" many times before and has still let us down, we have not faith left in it. The thought would always be there that it could always go wrong again in the future and let us down. I had to use it earlier for about 1/2 an hour and it made my knee ache.

Is it fair to expect this?

 

James

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A replacement will not happen I'm sure of that and a refund that fits in financially is very unrealistic. Now that NH are aware I would say any further fix would be permanent. There is a possibility of a manufacturer buy back which is slightly different to that of dealing with the dealer. I'd keep on at NH for a permanent fix to the issue. If dealt with correctly, they might even send a loan one whilst they take yours away to investigate.

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The tractor certainly cannot be taken away without a replacement as it is our only means of moving large bales and feeding our cattle, without a loader tractor we are stuffed, when it was unsafe to use in the past we had to be lent a tractor by another dealer.

 

Other dealers are offering far better deals on the same new holland tractor, we are not asking for them to give anything away or give a huge discount, all we want is for them to be more realistic with their prices and for new holland to help out as a gesture. We have had new hollands in the past and would continue to purchase if this issue is resolved, surely they wouldn't want to get a bad name and lose custom over a small amount???

 

If it wasn't for the problems we could trade in for a new one at another dealer at a far better price, but they wouldn't want it as it is.

 

James

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  • 4 weeks later...

Well, we gave in and allowed the dealer 1 final chance to sort it with new holland involved. They have lent us a tractor but now over 2 weeks later its still not fixed. They have said there is a new clutch they can fit but we were told that last time. I guess we will just have to wait now.

 

Thanks again for all the advice given.

 

James

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