account too old for cca

[payupnow]

hi all just wondering if some body can point me in the right direction.

asked for a cca back in july 09 from loyds tsb,thru apex nothing turned up exept all the usuall we are going to sue you. offers of early settlement ect.

 

Then in october i got a letter from apex that says we were informed by our client that the account is now too old for a copy of the agreement,and that legally they only have to keep documentation for five to six years.

 

dont know how they can take me to court if theres no cca,what i want to do is shut them up for good am i right in thinking that no cca its not enforceable am i a bit daft and missing something.

 

any help in drafting a letter would be appreciated as i think pi**s off may be a bit blunt

[boswell]

No CCA no debt - end of.

If they try to sue they will have to produce it in court.

What was the debt for and how old is it?

[payupnow]

its for a personal loan aprox 10 years old

[boswell]

Have you had any previous contact or acknowledged the debt or made any payments off it during the last 6 years. If not it may now be SB.

[payupnow]

been making payments to dca for last few years on and off . im not very sure how to put it to them that they dont have a leg to stand on if they do take it to court but im sure they know this.

 

any thoughts on what to put in the letter im going to send i want to send something that sounds good but not sure what to write besides somethig basic

[ozzywizard]

They cannot take you to court, you have issued a request under the CCA for a copy of your agreement they have not complied. send them this letter then forget it exists, if they issue court proceedings post back on this thread but they will not.

 

Account In Dispute

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER 0000000.

Dear Sir/Madam

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

On XX/XX/XXXX I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on xx/xx/xxxx (12+2 days after you sent the CCA request)

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

Furthermore You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.This limit has expired

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit. You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint. I therefore request a copy of your official complaints procedure which you are obliged to supply.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully,

 

print name not sign

[havinastella]

Dear Oxygen Thieves

 

I refer to your letter dated (date) in which you confirm that you are unable to comply with my formal request pursuant to s.78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. However, despite being in default of my request, you have continued to make unlawful demands for payment contrary to s.78(6) of the CCA 1974 and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

I note what you say about the Credit Services Association, and draw your attention to the first paragraph of its Code, which states that members must act lawfully at all times. Furthermore, under the CPUTR failing to comply with a code of conduct to which you have subscribed is unfair trading.

 

In the circumstances, I will not enter into further correspondence with you, and any further unlawful demands or contact will be viewed as harassment and reported to the appropriate enforcement agency.

 

Finally, as you have failed to comply with my request, I require you to return the £1.00 fee without delay.

 

Yours etc.

[payupnow]

thanks all for the above thats given me a clearer idea of where to go with this

[ozzywizard]

No probs, any more issues let us know.

 

Oh btw I love this bit, lol. . .

 

Finally, as you have failed to comply with my request, I require you to return the £1.00 fee without delay.

[payupnow]

hi all just an up date on apex got a letter on friday we have closed your account and sent it back to tsb ho and a cheque for my £1

so a little victory there for me just goes to show that there full of empty threats and no action.

looking forward to whats next,as they have admitted in a previous letter there is no cca, not a lot i suppose:D:D

[marcander]

Hi there,

very interesting thread here.

 

I have a debt that was defaulted in 2002. It was for an unsecured loan and I am still paying on an informal/temporary arrangement which seems to get reviewed every 6 months. Initially, in 2002 after the default I started paying £5.00 per month. I am now paying £80.00 per month. I agreed the current monthly payment with the original lender A@leics through their in-house dca Global and they have been quite fair with me. They were taken over last year by S@nt@nder who passed the debt on in February to Moorcr@ft. I received a letter from Moorcr@ft saying the usual, "must pay in full within 5 days or contact us. Mentions of court and costs etc. No mention however of the informal arrangement that I have (also have arrangement confirmation letter from A@L).

 

I thought this unfair because as S@nt@nder took over the debt I would have expected them to accept the previously agreed informal agreement of £80.00.

 

Anyways following advice from this excellent site I decided to send Moorcr@ft a CCA request. They have acknowledged my letter and said that the docs will be sent or a reply stating otherwise. They say they will not pursue any collections until one or the other occurs. They also requested any evidence I might be presenting to a court or relevant governing body. This CCA request certainly does seem to stop them in their tracks. Anyways my February payment became due in the middle of the 12+2 days CCA waiting period. I paid online through Moorcr@ft website. I paid because I was concerned that my credit file would suffer. My credit rating is quite good so I didnt want to have a marker for late payment of the arrangement while waiting for the CCA reply. I was also curious as to why this debt doesn't appear on my credit files. Through another site a financial journalist arranged for Experi@n's Consumer Education Manager to reply.

 

He said that defaults have to be removed from your credit files after 6 years from default date. It doesn't matter whether paid or unpaid or like me still paying. No ifs or buts. The default must be removed AND any reference to the debt. Neither the original lender nor anyone else can default you again for the same date.

 

Now, that ties in with certain recollections. I first started checking my credit files in 2008 and their was no mention of any debts ( I have 2 others). Also one of the other 2 debts ( an Eg.g card has been handled from the beginning by Moorcr@ft). Every time I rang to make my payment they would try and get an increase from me and depending who you got, there were mentions of CCJs and charges against my house even though I told them four years ago I had cancer ( now removed thankfully) they never failed to seize every opportunity to squeeze a bit more from me. It got so bad I begged them to let me set up a direct debit but they wouldn't as obviously it gave them a chance every month to put pressure on. Then, miraculously a direct debit form arrived around about the time the default on that account would have dropped off my credit files.

 

Now, my question is, concerning the loan account, 15 working days have passed since Moorcr@ft received my CCA request and passed it on to S@nt@nder and there has been no further contact and no CCA, what do I do now? Lets say nothing happens by the end of the month and my March payment is due. Do I send it or not. Also if either the OL or the DCA ask me for another increase in April (which I cannot afford) what might happen?

 

I cannot really see them taking me to court as I have little money coming in and I have and am paying all I can afford at present. My main concern was my credit files, although the default is removed and there's no mention of the debt I suppose theoretically they could take me to court and get a CCJ. I presume that a CCJ even after 8 years would go on my files.

 

Anyways thanks to all of the providers of the excellent advice so far.

 

regards

 

M

[payupnow]

hi if it were me i would stop paying until the cca arrives.when you write and ask for it and it does not come the account is then in dispute you dont have to pay anything until they respond to your request.

at the end of the day they want as much cash as they can screw out of you.

the reason you are asking for the cca is so you can check its a legal valid agreement if they never send it how can you know.

[twofoot]

If you keep paying like a good boy should, what do you gain? Not even a thank you, Absolutely nothing. What do you loose? About £80 a month and your cool when they start pestering you, (only for a few weeks). You have absolutely nowt to gain by paying them so stop now and put the phone down when they phone you or tell them writing only.

[marcander]

Just a quick update,

 

it is now 8 weeks since Moorcraft received and acknowledged my CCA request. Apart from their letter to me saying there will be no account collection activity until it is supplied and asking me for details of any dispute I might have, I have received nothing.

 

I have now stopped making my monthly payment to them until I do receive the CCA.

 

I presume that they must be having difficulty finding the relevant docs.

 

Long may it continue,

 

thanks again to all.

 

Marc

[harrassed senior]

Have you planned what you are going to spend your new found wealth on - well done, long may it continue

[marcander]

Not having to pay £80.00 out is certainly bonus for me no matter if it only lasts a couple more months and then they find the CCA. My concern originally was the affect on my credit file but now that I know that they cannot post any information about this account on my credit file as the original default was over 6 years ago, it makes things a lot clearer.

 

So, if I have things right now, they cannot take me to court without some kind of true copy of the original details on the agreement. They have up to now failed to supply it to me as per my CCA request. (request made 9 weeks ago). I understand that although S@ntander cannot report any details concerning this account to a credit ref agency they could still go for a CCJ.

 

When I show them and a court that I am paying all I can, in fact possibly paying more than I can afford, (having to borrow) then my feeling is that a court could possibly order me to pay less than I am currently willing to pay. No point in them going for a CCJ where they could end up with less per month.

 

Anyways up to now the account is in dispute as per Moorcr@fts letter of acknowledgement and they will not pursue collection.

 

I have another debt being handled by Moorcr@ft and that is an EEGG card from 1998 for £5300.00 the amount on that seems to go up and down even tho I am paying by direct debit £30.00 per month and have been paying lesser amounts since 2001. I think now is the right time to CCA moorcr@ft again for the EEGG and see what happens there. I understand that EEGG were less than diligent in the preparation of their contracts and in the archiving of documents so this could be fun.

 

When Moorc@ft first started handling the EEGG card they were like dogs with a bone, ringing all the time, always looking for an increase when I rang to pay. Would never consider a direct debit because they wanted the chance to get more out of me each month. Then amazingly, about the same time as my credit file became immune to their infections after 6 years they sent me a direct debit form.

 

Anyways thanks again to all, and we shall see what we shall see.

 

regards

 

M

[count orlok]

I believe they are right in that they only have to keep the agreement for six years. Otherwise the amount of paperwork involved would be untenable. Thing is the six years is after the account is closed, not opened. Something to do with money laundering laws or similar.

[marcander]

Think I might have made things a little unclear here.

 

The 6 years I am referring to is, in my case, they defaulted me in 2001 and they cannot report to a credit ref agency any details about that account when 6 years has passed from date of default. I believe that when answering a CCA request some companies say that they dont keep documents for longer than 6 years but that is a different matter and no defence. They have to supply me with a true copy or at least the details of what would have been on an agreement made at that time. If, as in my case, they cannot or do not supply me then the account is in dispute and they are acting unlawfully if they pursue the debt BEFORE they fulfill my request for CCA.

 

So, until I get my CCA request fulfilled I am not legally expected to make payments, and because the default date is over 6 years ago they cannot report to a credit agency any information about that debt, including the fact that I am withholding payments until i receive the CCA doc/docs.

 

Credit ref agencies cannot publish data about an account for which there has been a default dated over 6 years ago. This is to protect those who are trying to pay, like me, from being disadvantaged against those who pay nothing.

 

This is fair really. Imagine someone with the same debt and default nearly 9 years ago who doesnt pay a penny. Their credit file would be clear of that debt after 6 years have passed whereas mine could have references to a payment arrangement or settled could be recorded.

 

Anyways thanks again to the many contributors.

 

regards

M

[count orlok]

I was not confused, I forgot to put a after my last post. I think you'll find they HAVE to keep records for six years after the account is closed, AFAIK that is the law.

 

Also you seem to be moralising about people who pay nothing towards "their debts". Many people are not in a position to be able to pay through no fault of their own, and many of those collecting or demanding money have no right to do so.

[marcander]

Hi all,

 

well I received a letter from Moorcraft today (11 weeks after they received and acknowledged my CCA request concerning an AandL loan now belonging to Sant@nder)

 

It reads,

dated 23rd April " We write with reference to your letter received on 9th February 2010 and regret to advise you that we are unable to comply with your request as we are no longer dealing with this account. For the avoidance of doubt you should resubmit your request to the client. We have returned your payment which was submitted with your original request, duly enclosed, and further advise that all future correspondence should be made direct to our client."

 

Has this happened to anyone else?

 

My intention is now to submit a CCA request direct to Sant@nder but it is hopeful to my case that Moorcr@ft have taken 11 weeks to inform me that they cannot comply and have returned my £1.00. I originally sent a postal order which was cashed but they have returned a cheque so they must have originally expected to be able to comply with my request for the CCA.

 

I am assuming now that the account is not currently "in dispute" until I resubmit my CCA request.

 

Does anyone know if there is a legal requirement for Moorcr@ft to see this thru' to the end as it is they who took over the account collection in January and it is they who I made my original CCA request to?

 

Anyways will keep the forum informed of any further developments that might be helpful to others.

 

Thanks again to all.

 

M

[cerberusalert]

I am assuming now that the account is not currently "in dispute" until I resubmit my CCA request.

Oh yes, it's still in dispute alright. You made a legal request which hasn't been fulfilled and even if morecrap passed the debt back to the o/c they should have passed the cca request with it.

[count orlok]

the fact that moorcroft have returned your money does not change a thing, they were the ones asking you for money if they are unable to comply with your request then it is in dispute, simple. It remains in dispute untill you are sent a true copy of the agreement.

[marcander]

Thanks for the quick replies.

 

So, as I see it, I have two options.

 

1 to resubmit the CCA request direct to AanL Sant@nder and wait again to see what happens, or

 

2 to do nothing as I have not yet received my CCA document/s from my original request to Moorcrap and wait until I am contacted one way or the other presumably by the original creditor. Maybe then to resubmit.

 

I have witheld my monthly payment from March ( I have an informal arrangement) and I intend to withold any payments until I receive the doc/s.

 

Moorcraps original CCA acknowledgement letter said they would not pursue collection until docs supplied but there is no mention in today's letter about resuming any payments etc.

 

My worry is that Sant@nder might just try to get a CCJ. I suspect that they cannot while the account is in dispute. Also I am on income support and I can actually prove that the amount I was paying (£80.00 per month) is more than I can afford on a regular basis and something would have to give if I were to return to paying it. So, I am also assuming that a court could possibly order me to pay less than the current informal arrangement if it did reach court. This does seem to make an application for a CCJ unlikely, well thats what I am hoping.

 

If the account is still in dispute as Moorcrap havn't complied and have passed the account back to SANT then again I am assuming that they cannot apply for a CCJ.

 

Anyways, thanks again to all for the advice, I am learning all the time. Hopefully I can repay by helping someone in a similar position in the future.

 

regards

 

M