Cohens - CL Finance - GE Money

[Skins08]

Hi everyone…

This is my first post on CAG although I’ve been watching it for ages. Well done all for providing the “light at the end of the tunnel” for people. I am trying to deal with my partner’s problems and the current situation with one DCA is as follows:

 

Debenhams Store Card initially (from 1995)

Current alleged debt £9000 +

Problems started March 2008

Default Notice from GE Money May 2008

Started Payplan payments to several creditors

Viking letter (threatogram) early August 2008

Viking letter (file closed – returned to GE Money – legal action commencing)

CL Finance – Notice of Assignment – will honor Payplan arrangement – November 2008

CCA to CL Finance late November 2008

CCA reiterate request after receiving statement December 2008

CLF letter – in process of obtaining info – mid December 2008

CLF letter – copy agreement – statements – t&c – end Jan 2009

They actually sent 12 months statements from GE Money (when asked for all or minimum 6 years) plus an illegible application form/credit agreement.

There are 2 issues with the agreement:

1)Different account number

2)PPI not required ticked – crossed out – then PPI required ticked by someone else.

Noticed PPI charges on 12 months statements approx £1300

My partner was employed as a part-time cleaner.

 

Letter to CLF requesting full statements with all charges or minimum 6 years as per original request.

SAR letter to CLF – both sent early Feb 2009

CLF letter re: SAR stating no charges have been added since assigned and no statements available except those already sent – suggested contact GE Money – returned £10 fee late Feb 2009

SAR to GE Money – early July 2009 (NO RESPONSE TO DATE)

 

CLF – Cohen Court Claim received end Oct 2009 Northampton CCBC

Cohen letter received stating “you will now have received……”

CPR letter to Cohen requesting info – early Nov 2009

Acknowledgement of Service to court – early Nov 2009

Embarrassed defence sent 24/11

Letter from Cohen 25/11 – “all we have to supply are those mentioned in PoC – credit agreement copy – default notice – notice of assignment.

 

Now this default notice is a new one (not the one from GE Money in May) and has never been received by my partner. It is dated end September.

Court defence acknowledgement 27/11

AQ received 6th Jan to be in court by 21st Jan

 

Can anyone please help on the AQ (N150) – have found similar cases from GhostDebt and Creditcardmug which AQ’s could be used but I think this part is critical and if there’s anyone out there please can you help ….

Thanks

[DonkeyB]

Can you post up copies of both default notices (with personal details removed)?

[Skins08]

Here they are - sorry no scanner but took photos then photoshopped details out. Hope this works...

 

It didn't but uploaded now to TinyPic - links below:

 

http://i50.tinypic.com/2ywtq9e.jpg

 

http://i49.tinypic.com/2z9e7pk.jpg

 

Thanks for looking

Edited January 20, 2010 by Skins08

[DonkeyB]

Too small - you can resave and attach as PDFs, or use Photobucket.

[Skins08]

Have put the links in Post#3 now - should be ok

Thanks

[42man]

Did they send a termination letter after the first default notice ? The first default notice looks a duff to me as it doesn't give 14 clear days after service, it only says 'within 14 days of the date of the letter'.

[42man]

Did you pay anything after the first default notice ? or did they terminate ?

[PGH7447]

subbing

[Skins08]

She is pretty certain that they did not terminate - but she was on a PayPlan scheme around that time.

I think the 2nd one from CL is made up.

 

I've just managed to get links to the agreement they sent - and as I said most of it is illegible and the account number is totally different to the one on PoC.

http://i50.tinypic.com/ejhd7b.jpg

 

http://i49.tinypic.com/1znpstu.jpg

 

I have to get the AQ in by tomorrow latest - any suggestions?

Thanks

[vint1954]

Firstly, the second jpeg is truncated so unable to read. Unable to comment on agreement.

 

1st DN is definitely faulty. Does not allow 14 clear days rfom service to rectify. Also the prescribed text, in upper case, should have some of it in bold and underlined.

 

2nd DN is compliant on dates, however it appears to ask for the whole sum due, £7000 +. Was that the statement amount due at the time of this DN?

 

If so, then that renders the DN useless as they are unable to claim the full ballance, until they have issued a complient DN.

 

Also second notice, the text BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN should be in bold text and underlined in order to stand out from the surrounding text. Also the wording of this text needs to be checked.

 

The problem with the first DN is that you continued to pay following that notice, I assume, therefore agreeing to the contract enduring.

 

If the ballance in the second DN is indeed the full amount outstanding, then you need to accept their illegal termination of contract. Suggest you send the issuer of the 2nd DN the letter below. Their court action confirms termination.

 

Date xxxxxxxxxxxx.

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Unlawful Rescission.

 

With reference to the alleged debt to your company, I refer to your Default Notice dated xxxxxxxxx 2009, posted second class and received by me on xxxxxxxx 2009, and your subsequent actions in which you unlawfully repudiate the agreement It is clear from your actions that your intent is to no longer perform therefore I accept your unlawful rescission of the agreement and consider myself relieved from any obligations in respect of this agreement .

 

[i note that you are now entitled to claim those arrears genuinely due at the time of the termination (not including any unlawful charges ) and i would be obliged if you would advise me of the exact amount of those arrears, against which may be a claim for unlawful rescission[/font]

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

I guess then that your defence would be:

 

1 faulty DN under s87 - 88 and unlawfull rescission ( assuming ammount in DN is full amount of debt or close to ). Remember that they can only ask for the arrears in the DN, which if you pay that amount, the account endures.

 

2. Illegible and probably non complient agreement.

 

As far as filling in AQ's. I have yet to learn that one.

[debbbbsy]

Hi,

When you say Debenhams Store Card initially (from 1995)

Was it "Upgraded " to a credit card.

Debs

[havinastella]

It's amazing that this company thinks it's perfectly acceptable to buy a debt, Issue Court papers for it, but has NO WAY POSSIBLE to show how the debt is made up!!

 

So, they take you to Court, tell the judge it's £9000 because we say it is and get judgement

 

Fight this to the end.

 

Jogs

[Skins08]

Thanks for the responses folks.

Vint - I think its too late to start corresponding with them as its already in the legal system but your comments could be very useful for the proper defence if the judge orders them to produce all that I've asked for in the AQ.

Thank you for that.

Debs - Yes it appears so... and the a/c number on the claim is different to the one on the agreement they sent (which is also illegible in most parts). Do you think they will get away with that as being the original a/c number?

Jogs - Agree totally 100%

 

Anyway I've managed to complete the AQ and am sending copy to Cohens as well as dropping one at the Court tomorrow.

Now its "wait and see what happens next"

 

Thanks again everyone

[debbbbsy]

Hi,

If the account was "Upgraded",ie, they converted it from a store card to a credit card without you signing a new agreement, the account is unenforceable in court. In all correspondence you MUST demand a copy of the agreement they refer to in there claim, that includes the reference no. they refer to, & rely upon.

Attached with your AQ, you need to "Direct the Judge", for full disclosure of the documents they refer to in the claim.

Don't send HC copy of AQ. Instead send letter informing them that they have failed to comply your cca rquest.

Howard Cohen/GE Money discontinue claim

debs

[Skins08]

Hi all - just to keep you up to date... nothing really happened yet. We received a letter from the court saying that the Allocation Hearing will take place on 24th Feb "...by way of a telephone conference, the claimants solicitors to arrange. 20 minutes allowed for the hearing.."

Then it says: "Please note: This case may be released to another judge, possibly at a different court."

Currently it is set at our local court - can they change this?

Also any ideas how this will proceed - i.e. what happens at an Allocation Hearing?

What if we don't hear from HC (obviously we will ring the court - but at what point do we do this? On the day? Day before?

Input and help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

 

Debs - yes it was converted from a store card to a credit card without signing a new agreement and I did reference the account number they are claiming on when I did the draft directions in the AQ re disclosure of the documents. Unfortunately I had already sent HC a copy by the time I saw your comments...

 

What is it that people are saying reference "Manchester cases decisions" - is it some sort of test case? Does anyone know anything about these?

 

Cheers & thanks everyone

[vint1954]

The Manchester case only revolved around s78, so dont wory about that.

[Skins08]

Thanks Vint - I've just been going through it all.

It seems to be if you are the claimant there could be problems

Regards

[vint1954]

Yes, that is correct. As the claimant, you have to prove your case.

[debbbbsy]

Hi,

I'll scan & post a copy of the final letter I sent to HC. You have to make them fully aware of why they won't get judgement, that they will have to provide the agreement under ref. no ****** for the credit card, & also the cost order you will make against them.

[debbbbsy]

Dear Sirs

 

I am writing in response to your letter dated ***** 2009, which was your reply to my CPR31.14 Request dated ***** 2009 (copy enclosed).

 

You have failed to provide me with the agreement for Mastercard ref No:- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxq123.

 

May I bring to your attention the facts that a Store ChargeCard and Mastercard are so different. In particular the Terms and Conditions of the Store Chargecard and Mastercard differ.

 

As an example, but not limited to:-

1. The agreement for the Mastercard is for a ‘Credit Card’ while the Storecard agreement is for a store card.

2. Credit limits and interest rates for the 2 cards differ, as do other terms and conditions.

3. The Mastercard could be used in shops and businesses anywhere that display the Mastercard sign, while the Chargecard is restricted for use in Debenhams shops.

 

The Storecard application form, which you have provided (illegible, undated copy that is not in the prescribed form) is not the agreement you refer to in your Particulars of Claim (Claim Number xxxxxx3 dated 28th May 2009) which you rely upon to enforce judgment.

 

I would also like to draw your attention to the following:

 

1. I note that the statements you have provided are incomplete, in that there are periods of the alleged agreement where these have not been provided.

 

2. You have failed to provide a copy of the Default Notice.

I can advise you at this stage that should your claim fail you will be liable for wasted costs and appropriate counterclaims. In order to prevent this you would be minded to discontinue your claim.

 

In addition, a copy of this letter and proof of postage/delivery will be sent to the court for inclusion in the case file.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Good Luck

Debs

[Skins08]

Sorry for delays folks but here is the update. Thanks for your info Debs - really appreciate it.

 

There was supposed to be a telephone conference call Allocation Hearing organised by the claimant's solicitors. We hadn't heard a thing from them so we turned up at the court and ended up in the Judge's Chambers where she contacted the Claimant's solicitors and she decided that the case should go Fast Track because we were going to counterclaim for missold (An understatement...!) PPI. In fact it appears to be a fraudulent alteration to the application form. In short she has been paying PPI every month since 1995 when she categorically stated she did not want it (only working as a part-time cleaner at that time).

I think the Claimants want the case to be struck out and I think we have enough evidence to have it struck out... However I did a rough calculation using one of the spread sheet interest calculation templates with fairly conservative figures in for the PPI element of her monthly payments and the amount they have overcharged her over the last 15 years works out to be around £24,000 if using contractual interest. So really we want to counterclaim for this amount. The alleged debt is about £9,500. The problem is the claimants have only ever produced the following:

1) Notice of assignment (a letter from CL Finance)

2) Original - fairly illegible - application form / agreement

3) 12 months statements - including approx £1300 PPI

 

My questions are:

a) Is it possible to counterclaim based on estimated figures?

b) If not - I presume we must get from them all the statements re: this account. We have been trying to get this info for over a year now.

c) If we can counterclaim based on estimates when do we put this to the court. Currently we have been using the "Embarrassed Defence" and have reserved the right to issue a counterclaim when the claimant provides the documentation.

The timescale has been as follows:

Trial 09/08/2010 (allowed 3 hours)

Claimants to pay listing fee and hearing fee by 12/07/2010 (£600)

Standard disclosure by list by 30/04/2010 (which we did but claimant did not)

Witness statements to be filed and served by 11/06/2010

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated

Many thanks all for reading this.

[citizenB]

What happened with this one, skin?