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    • Hi, In my last post I mentioned I had received an email from SS who were asking me to hand over the keys to my mother’s flat so they could pass them to the Law firm who have been appointed court of protection to access, secure and insure my mother’s property.  Feeling this, all quickly getting out of my hands I emailed ss requesting proof of this. I HAVEN’T HEARD BACK FROM SS.  Yesterday, I received an email (with attached court of protection order) from the Law Firm confirming this was correct (please see below a copy of this).  After reading the court of protection order I do have some concerns about it:   (a)   I only found out yesterday, the Law firm had been appointed by the court back in January.  Up until now, I have not received any notification regarding this.  (b)   Section 2   - States I am estranged from my mother.  This is NOT CORRECT    The only reason I stepped back from my mother was to protect myself from the guy (groomer) who had befriended her & was very aggressive towards me & because of my mother’s dementia she had become aggressive also.  I constantly tried to warned SS about this guy's manipulative behaviour towards my mother and his increasing aggressiveness towards me (as mentioned in previous posts).  Each time I was ignored.  Instead, SS encouraged his involvement with my mother – including him in her care plans and mental health assessments.   I was literally pushed out because I feared him and my mother’s increasing aggression towards me. Up until I stepped back, I had always looked after my mother and since her admission to the care home, I visit regularly.   .(c)    Sections -  4, 5 and 7  I am struggling to understand these as I don’t have a legal background.  I was wondering if there is anyone who might be able to explain what they mean.  It’s been a horrendous situation where I had to walk away from my mother at her most vulnerable because of; ss (not helping), scammer and groomer. I have no legal background, nor experience in highly manipulative people or an understanding of how the SS system operates, finding myself isolated, scared and powerless to the point I haven’t collected my personal belongings and items for my mother’s room in the care home.  Sadly, the court has only had heard one version of this story SS’s, and based their decision on that. My mother’s situation and the experience I have gone through could happen to anyone who has a vulnerable parent.    If anyone any thoughts on this much appreciated.  Thank you. ______________________________________________________  (Below is the Court of Protection Order)  COURT OF PROTECTION                                                                                                                                                                                   No xxx  MENTAL CAPACITY ACT 2005 In the matter of Name xxx ORDER Made by  Depty District Judge At xxx Made on xxx Issued on 18 January 2024  WHEREAS  1.     xxx Solicitors, Address xxx  ("Applicant”) has applied for an order under the Mental Capacity Act 2005.  2.     The Court notes (my mother) is said to be estranged from all her three children and only one, (me) has been notified.  3.     (Me) was previously appointed as Atorney for Property and Affairs for (my mother).  The Exhibity NAJ at (date) refers to (me) and all replacement Attorneys are now officially standing down.  4.     Pursuant to Rule 9.10 of the Court of Protection Rules 2017 and Practice Direction 9B the Applicant 2must seek to identify at least three persons who are likely to have an interest in being notified that an application has been issues.”  The children of (my mother), and any other appointed attorneys are likely to have an interest in the application, because of the nature of relationship to (my mother).  5.     The Court considers that the notification requirements are an important safeguard for the person in respect of whom an order is sought.  6.     The Court notes that it is said that the local authority no longer has access to (my mother’s) Property.  7.     Further information is required for the Court to determine the application.  IT IS ORDERED THAT  Within 28 days of the issue date this order, the Applicant shall file a form COP24 witness statement confirming that the other children of (my mother) and any replacement attorneys have been notified of the application and shall confirm their name, address, and date upon which those persons were notified.  If the Applicant wishes the Court to dispense with any further notification, they should file a COP9 and COP24 explaining, what steps (if any) have been taken to attempt notification and why notification should be dispensed with.   Pending the determination of the application to appoint a deputy for (my mother), the Applicant is authorised to take such steps as are proportionate and necessary to access, secure and insure the house and property of (my mother).   This order was made without a hearing and without notice.  Any person affected by this order may apply within 21 days of the date on which the order was served to have the order set aside or varied pursuant to Rule 13.4 of the Court of Protection Rules 2017 (“the Rules”).  Such application must be made on Form COP9 and in accordance with Part 10 Rules.              
    • Unless I've got an incorrect copy of the relevant regulation: The PCN is only deemed to have arrived two days after dispatch "unless the contrary is proved" in which case date of delivery does matter (not just date of posting) and I would like clarification of the required standard of proof. It seems perhaps this hasn't been tested. Since post is now barcoded for the Post Office's own tracking purposes perhaps there is some way I can get that evidence from the Post Office...
    • I would say You should accept it - I HIGHLY doubt you will  be able to claim for letters at trial ans they’re offering you that, which is higher monetary value than interest.   Also they raise a good point, getting interest at anything above 4% is lucky these days, yes judges give it, but rarily above 4%   Also you might find depending on the judge  you don’t get some costs if you take it all the way over £7.40 when court woukdnt award letters costs and thus meaning their award would be less than evris offer which was made    Up to you though but the wait will be 3-4mo for a trial date at least
    • Hi Folks, Been 162 days! Just by way of update. Today I received a text from Opos Ltd so no doubt Capquest are renting the debt out to anybody who fancies a nibble. Safe to say I will not be responding.
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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Welcome - illegal repo in contravention of section 92 and unfair relationship ** WON **


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Thanks Leakie :madgrin:

 

There were a few times when I thought I was gonna buckle under the strain but we got there in the end. The appeal process is incredibly complicated, no information or rules appear to be clear or even consistent! That has got to have been one of the most difficult things I've ever done in my life, especially with the rawness of the hideous freak show trial still fresh in my memory. I seem to have developed some kind of bizarre phobia of courts and all things legal, so walking into Birmingham High Court today was quite a mammoth task :!:

 

Anybody considering an appeal, or a claim for that matter, should do some serious soul searching beforehand. You will need a will of steel and an army of support for starters!

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Have the site team changed things again,

no date and post numbers or is it me,sorry for digressing

Also with apologies for the digression, I too am missing the date and post numbering. Windows XP/IE7. Can anyone point us to where we should register this problem?

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Also with apologies for the digression, I too am missing the date and post numbering. Windows XP/IE7. Can anyone point us to where we should register this problem?

 

Hi,

The site had an upgrade yesterday and with any such thing, gremlins creep in too. These issues are being addressed so bear with us. Thanks

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

Please help CAG. Order this ebook. Now available on Amazon. Please click HERE

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WOW, What can i say?

I found this forum looking for assistance & help myself but having come onto your thread Wannabe i've gained so much information and desire to help my own situation.

You've come a hell of a long way now, keep at it and no matter how important this is to you, keep light on other important things close to you as this will provide the strength you'll need to see this out.

Easier said than done but looking through this today you've already proven your very much capable.

Looking forward to seeing you continue to fight the fight.

K.

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Wannabe, Old friend :)

 

Well as others have echoed I came across this thread expecting a big WON and was surprised to find it still on going.

 

I'm gutted you still haven't got the right outcome, but I'm sure in time you will have a big :) on your face, I'm going to miss this thread when it is all over :(

 

Now take them to the cleaners missy :p

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So, interesting turn of events today :???:

I used my 14 extra days to complete the skeleton argument supporting grounds of appeal and took it along to the High Court today. When I filled in the Appeal Notice I also made further applications for a stay of execution and a copy of the transcript at public expense. Whilst submitting my skelly today, the clerk told me that my application for a copy of the transcript at public expense had been granted and I would receive directions in the form of an order in a few days.

 

I have to admit I'm a bit confused by all of this, I was under the impression that all the applications would be dealt with together and it would take quite some time for a decision on permission to be reached??

 

Does anybody know how long on average it usually takes for applications for permission to be dealt with on paper?

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Damn... so whats the latest?

 

Could you end up with massive costs if you lose at the HC? Conversely could you end up with a massive lump sum if you win?

The latest is that permission to appeal has been requested from the High Court and I'm just waiting to find out if it's been granted or refused 'on paper'. I do know that my application for a copy of the transcript at public expense has been granted, so definitely a step in the right direction :-D

 

It is true that I might end up with a large bill if I lose, but this battle is about getting justice and obtaining a precedent as opposed to money. At present my situation is that I have absolutely nothing lose, (apart from time and sanity!), so even if things don't go my way in the end, they can't take something from me I haven't got.

 

I don't think I would end up with a massive lump sum if I win as the claim wasn't for a massive amount in the first place, but the value to me of beating welcome in the High Court is entirely priceless! :madgrin:

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Hi, can you clarify was the car parked on your drive or car park, was it a dca collecting the car for someone you owe money to or are in arrears with. If it was a case you had bought the car without checking hpi etc please clarify, i can help with this, need to know some background first

 

all the best

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You need to have some faith, the appeal will be sorted. It's not about money, it's the principle and the chance to make law. Read through this thread nad you will get the flavour.No appeal is ever going to be easy but as long as the obvious mistakes have been avoided then it shoould be fine. As for the obvious mistakes, it is ok to say a judge has made a mistake in interperting the law, as long as you don't say they were biassed against you, as that is reducing the argument to the level of the playground.Like I say show some faith.

Oh dear it looks like I've resorted to playground tactics then :!: After addressing all the issues with how the judge was wrong it's actually very difficult to see how you could say there was anything other than bias!

 

He even ruled in their favour at times when they admitted they were wrong! One example of many I could quote:-

 

Them: we only paid a tiny bit of commission and so it was irrelevant,

 

Me: Here is written evidence of how much commission was paid and it was a hell of a lot more than you say, I notice you have omitted this document from your bundle.

 

Them: (uncomfortable shuffle) ok we agree it was more but it still wasn't a very large amount compared to some other cases,

 

Judge: I rule they only paid the tiny bit they first admitted to, (even though they changed their mind, backtracked, agreed they were wrong and don't have any evidence), and it was such a small amount it was irrelevant.

 

My evidence and case law was just ignored.

 

WTF??? Apart from being wrong, how can that be anything other than bias?

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The judge spent the whole day complaining about how understaffed they were due to various judges being off sick and could we just "hurry this up??"

Farcical to say the least! He took the easy way out because it was just taking too long. I do understand there must be time limits and trials cannot go on indefinitely, but surely fairness and justice should still remain the priority?!!

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Totally agree with you Wannabe, but it just seems that either :

 

a:) These Judges are so up their own backsides, that they have no idea of what goes on in the "Real World"

or

b:) They are just plain afraid to rule against large organisations, in favour of the "little" man (or woman!)

 

Hopefully, when you get to appeal level, the Judges are a bit more level headed and focused..

 

Mike

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Totally agree with you Wannabe, but it just seems that either :

 

a:) These Judges are so up their own backsides, that they have no idea of what goes on in the "Real World"

or

b:) They are just plain afraid to rule against large organisations, in favour of the "little" man (or woman!)

 

Hopefully, when you get to appeal level, the Judges are a bit more level headed and focused..

 

Mike

Well it looks like we'll get to find out sooner rather than later! Just had notice from the High Court there will be a hearing between end of June middle of July in front of a High Court Judge.

 

Have to say I'm a bit confused as to what is going on right now as it is totally NOT what I was expecting to have received :shock:

 

The High Court have written to the lower court asking for them to make a copy of the transcript available at public expense and it be sent to me and that I need to submit an appeal bundle within 35 days of today.

 

I am so confused!!! It appears to be saying that there will be a permission to appeal hearing followed immediately by the hearing of the appeal with a total time estimate of 2 hours and that the other side should prepare.... How can that possibly happen????

I think I need to post up the actual wording of the letter and get others' opinion, maybe I'm misconstruing what has been written :???:

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"WITHOUT NOTICE

 

IT IS ORDERED THAT;

Apellant's application for permission to appeal, with the hearing of the appeal (subject to permission) to follow, with a total time estimate of two hours, will be heard before a High Court Judge at *** Civil Justice Centre at 10.30am, on a date to be fixed, within a hearing window commencing 27th June 2011 and ending 15th July 2011,. NOTE TO THE RESPONDENT: this order is a direction under CPR PD 52 para 5.22 that the respondent should prepare for the hearing of the appeal, notwithstanding that permission has not been granted."

 

**directions about filing and serving an appeal bundle**

 

"There be a stay of execution of the order the subject matter of this appeal pending the outcome of this appeal or further order."

 

All opinions gratefully received!!

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This is totally from reading law cases online and not from experience or legal knowledge, but it seems to be quite common that the permission to appeal hearing is immediately followed by the appeal (subject to permission having been granted of course!). You need to prepare for both and keep your fingers crossed.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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Thanks for that :-)

This is all so strange to me, I know very little about appeals and then whatever I learn seems to get quashed! I was expecting a decision on my application for permission on paper followed by an oral hearing if that was refused, and then the hearing of the actual appeal some months later, the whole process taking the best part of a year! :|

What has actually happened is - I submitted applications for permission to appeal, a stay of execution pending the outcome of the appeal and a copy of the transcript to be provided at public expense on 3rd May. 10 days later a Judge had looked at my applications, decided I could have a copy of the transcript, I could have a stay and fixed a time for hearing the application for permission and hearing the subsequent appeal in 5-7 weeks! Now that's what you call service :!:

 

I've been told I will receive a transcript of the judgment and I need to file and serve my appeal bundle within 5 weeks.

 

I wonder how the other side will react to this course of events? Upon receipt of the sealed appellant's notice from the High Court they wrote to me saying they would "issue an appropriate response if and when permission is granted" - not gonna be much time for that if it's immediately followed by the appeal itself lol!

 

Looks like the second and final round is coming up very soon... I can't believe this is finally, finally going to be over!

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wow wannabe....

 

Are your ready? Can you go straight after a permission hearing? Do you have everything you need (aside from filing and transcripts etc etc)... If you've been given two hours do you think you can get everything in in that two hours or will it continue for longer? Sorry for the many questions, I am really hoping that you get a massive victory from this.

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I think the transcript is crucial here. Again, I'm going by what I've read of appeal hearings and I don't know exactly what the grounds for appeal are, but I think that the major part will be going through the transcript word by word if necessary and pointing out each and every possible departure from the law, e.g. the judge found as fact that ... but failed to apply s xxx of the xxxxx act correctly so that xxxxxx.

 

My memory is not great and it's some time since I read all the details of this case, but isn't the basic foundation that Welcome repossessed the vehicle from private property without a court order? Therefore at every step it should be 'the judge found as fact that xxx entered private property to take the vehicle etc.....'

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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I think the transcript is crucial here. Again, I'm going by what I've read of appeal hearings and I don't know exactly what the grounds for appeal are, but I think that the major part will be going through the transcript word by word if necessary and pointing out each and every possible departure from the law, e.g. the judge found as fact that ... but failed to apply s xxx of the xxxxx act correctly so that xxxxxx.

 

My memory is not great and it's some time since I read all the details of this case, but isn't the basic foundation that Welcome repossessed the vehicle from private property without a court order? Therefore at every step it should be 'the judge found as fact that xxx entered private property to take the vehicle etc.....'

Thank you for all your help, it's really useful.

There are 3 grounds for appeal:

 

Ground 1- Mis-selling of Payment Protection Insurance

1) The Judge misinterpreted the nature of the claimant’s claim alleging misselling of PPI as being that of the unsuitability of the product. The claimant claimed that the PPI was mis-sold as it was made a condition of the finance and made no allegation to its suitability.

2) The judge incorrectly held that the presence of claimant’s signature on the agreement was sufficient to prove the PPI was sold correctly and failed to consider whether the supplier gave to its customer information "that was clear, fair and not misleading" so that an informed choice could be made.

3) The Judge failed to consider the evidence which shows clear systematic problems in the methods used by the defendant on previous sales of PPI policies.

 

Ground 2- The payment of a Secret Commission to a Broker

4) The Judge overlooked written evidence showing a substantial amount of commission paid by the defendant to a broker, an unsubstantiated verbal averment by the defendant’s witness was relied upon in the judgment despite the higher amount being conceded by the defendant’s counsel during the trial.

5) The defendant conceded that there had been no disclosure regarding the payment of commission at the instigation of the agreement.

6) The lesser amount was allowed by the judge as being non causal, the judge was wrong to allow causation to be a complete defence to the claimant’s claims of secrecy and lack of fair and open dealings.

 

Ground 3- Breach of Section 92 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

7) The Judge found in the claimant’s favour in a claim for trespass but subsequently either misinterpreted or failed to acknowledge Section 92 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, by which the agreement was regulated, overlooked supporting text and failed to make a consequential judgment.

8 ) The Judge was wrong to make an order that Section 92 was not applicable when the defendant’s defence was a denial that they entered the premises as opposed to a question of the relevance of the Law.

 

 

Does anybody know if it's too late to do a Part 18 request???

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My response was to the ghost to show some faith in this, although telling one high court judge that his mate who is another high court judge was biassed just didn't seem sensible, who knows? It is probably too late for a part 18 request as they are used to obtain further information about the proceedings. Arguably the proceedings have ceased and only the appeal is left. You could always submit a request and see what comes back. Bit surprised you have to appear for permission to appeal. Usually if the appeall has merit then permission is granted on the paperwork alone, just leaving the bun fight in the court later.

Thank you for your support.

It's confused me too but I've been speaking to a barrister and apparently this is how it goes these days, an attempt at streamlining the process and saving expense allegedly. It would appear that if an appeal had no merit it would be refused on paper, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

The first judge wasn't a High Court judge and I've looked into further and found that there have been other instances where his judgments were overturned on the basis that "the judge didn't take into account all the evidence and invented the incident" Hmmm... sounds familiar!

 

I believe that High Court judges are obliged to follow the letter of the law as this is where case law precedents are set, so hopefully things will get sorted once and for all.

 

Don't think I'll bother with the Part 18 request, I'm just getting myself worked up over nothing because this whole thing has been such a travesty :|

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Hi Wannabe

 

Been following this for nearly a year now, and am in stunned awe at the courage and application you've demonstrated so far :thumb:. Eagerly awaiting the outcome of this cos my case is so similar, right down to the use of the Police to enforce the repossesion. The only worrying bit for me is the fact that at over £25,000 in 2006 it was classed as an unregulated loan, no idea whether that disqualifies me, but anyway, best of luck for the big day

 

You are an inspiration, and I don't say that verey often

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  • 2 weeks later...
looking for quick advice as court hearing tomorrow (WEDNESDAY)

 

posted new thread (it wont let me include link)

 

looking to get quick feedback for next steps before hearing June 8

 

Much appreciated in advance

 

Merc

 

Sorry we missed your date, have posted your thread link below however.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?308474-Allocation-court-hearing-tomorrow-urgent-help-needed&highlight=

 

How'd you get on, still need help?

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