Clamped whilst taxed on a Private car park

[dunetank]

HELP HELP HELP!!

 

Back in November last year my car was clamped on a friday morning, this was because i had no tax. However the tax was purchased online the night b4.

 

When i asked them to come and unclamp my vehicle i was told that b4 i do i must pay for a tax disc or pay the fine, as my car is showing that it is "SORN"ed. After telling them that it was taxed last night and have the confirmation email to prove it, they said that this alone is not proof enough. And they told me that i would have to wait till Monday morning for them to come and unclamp me. After they had spoken to the DVLA, or i pay. But if they wanted they could of spoken to the DVLA whenever as it is a 24hr line, and found out from them

 

Anyway come monday i phoned and was told by some1 else that a confirmation email is fine and will be out to unclamp me. Which is fine.

However after digging around a bit i found out that the car park i was on was a ASDA one and was not public highway, and because my car was SORNed, should'nt have been clamped. I sent a letter to NSL stating this. However they are refusing to admit they were wrong, And they said even if my car was taxed i should have waited till the tax disc arrived. However i always thought that if you buy a tax b4 the old 1 runs out or the sorn runs out you have a 5 days grace. After speaking to a DVLA rep she said that this is correct!!!!

So can some1 help and tell me what to do next. I want COMP!!! Thank u

 

Matt

[buzby]

Don't see you getting any compensation. Whilst you may well have had tax current when the car was clamped, there remins the issue of 'failure to display' a current tax disk, so whilst you may get the fine waived, you contributed to the problem by not displaying a valid disk. If you parked on the street, the police would have done you for it anyway.

 

When did the previous disk expire? As if it was the previous month, then being clamped was a pretty onerous action.

[dunetank]

Nope i had a valid SORN so according to the rules from DVLA u have 5 days grace if you had applied b4 ur old tax expires or b4 ur SORN expires. so i couldnt be done for not displaying a disc.

But surely i can claim for the taxi rides and the phone calls that i had to make.

[buzby]

Absolutely not. The rules requiring displaying a valid disk trump this. Because you could not show a recently expiring disc, their agent's action would be deemed 'reasonable' enforcement. AIUI the 'grace' is only relevant for the gap in old expiry date to when you actually recieve the new disk.

Edited January 15, 2010 by buzby

[GLADSTANES]

"Since 1st September 2008, you can legally drive or keep your vehicle on the road for up to five days from the end of the month without displaying a valid tax disc provided you have made your application (by phone or online) before your current vehicle tax/SORN expires."

 

This is quoted verbatim from an official DVLA publication published 11/09.

 

There is no mention of displaying anything.

 

Gladstanes

[buzby]

There is no mention of displaying anything.

 

Gladstanes

 

And this ir relevant... how?

 

The rules regarding the requirement to display are here:

Car tax rules : Directgov - Motoring

 

This has nothing to do with renewing it.

[sailor sam]

How long was your car SORN'd for?

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[Raykay]

The period of grace, introduced by Finance Act 2008, s.147, is from the time the current licence(or SORN) ceases to be valid, as the OP licensed the car the day before, the current SORN was no longer valid and the 5 days grace starts from then.

 

As the car was in an ASDA car park and not on a public road, there is no requirement to display a licence anyway.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Raykay

[GLADSTANES]

Buzby

 

This is relevant because the vehicle was under SORN and not taxed at the time.

 

On the link you have posted I believe it states that there is no requirement to show any disc when the vehicle is under SORN and in any event the vehicle was parked on private land.

 

As the vehicle was parked on private land it should not have been clamped or touched in any way at all.

 

Clampers will have now have computerised records of the tax status of every vehicle. They had absolutely no right to take this action.

 

To reiterate the vehicle was under SORN and therefore there is no requirement to show any tax disc.

 

GLADSTANES

[buzby]

Afraid your definition of 'private land' is irrelevant. Since the Finance Act amendment, the only place a SORN will cover (apart from garage premises) is the householders own driveway - not a private street or road, nor a parking space in a communal area. DVLA enforcement agents are happy to clamp employee's cars in company car parks - which they would be unable to do if the law was based on your understanding of it.

 

As to the records being computerised, it would prove that the vehicle in the ASDA car park was SORNed and a candidate for clamping. For the avoidance of doubt and to reiterate, the clamping was completely legal, but not if the car was in the OPs driveway at home.

[sailor sam]

Gladstanes is correct apart from one thing; if the car was showing a being SORN'd and the clampits records hadn't updated, they will clamp a vehicle if it is being driven. The fact that it was clamped at Asda suggests that it had been driven there while SORN'd so displaying disk or not would be irrelevant.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[Raykay]

Afraid your definition of 'private land' is irrelevant. Since the Finance Act amendment, the only place a SORN will cover (apart from garage premises) is the householders own driveway - not a private street or road, nor a parking space in a communal area. DVLA enforcement agents are happy to clamp employee's cars in company car parks - which they would be unable to do if the law was based on your understanding of it.

 

Where a SORN vehicle is kept is nothing to do with the Finance Act, the only requirement for SORN is that the vehicle is not used or kept on a public road.

 

The Finance Act only gave powers to clamp vehicles on private land (with some exceptions) that are not currently licensed or SORN.

 

If the ASDA car park is not a public road and the SORN was current it should not have been clamped.

[buzby]

A SORN is invalid if the location of the vehicle is not as specified (curtilage of private dwelling) therefore, as the SORN is invalid, the clamping remains legitimate.

 

Why on earth do you think they would allow such a superb loophole to go unchallenged? The challenged, and closed it.

[sailor sam]

Where a SORN vehicle is kept is nothing to do with the Finance Act, the only requirement for SORN is that the vehicle is not used or kept on a public road.

 

The Finance Act only gave powers to clamp vehicles on private land (with some exceptions) that are not currently licensed or SORN.

 

If the ASDA car park is not a public road and the SORN was current it should not have been clamped.

 

Err, how did the car get to the Asda car park? YES! it must have been driven there via a public road unless the OP's driveway leads directly onto Asda's car park! So the car has been driven while showing as SORN'd which is why it was clamped and as you say, the finance act allows it to be done on private land.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[Raykay]

It has nothing to do with the curtilage of a building etc, that was introduced by the Finance Act in respect of clamping.

 

The 'loophole' was that some people were neither licensing or declaring SORN for their vehicles and were parking them on private land - supermarket car parks etc. when not using them. Prior to the 2002 Finance Act they could only be clamped if they were found on a public road, that Act extended the power to clamp those vehicles (with some exceptions) on private land, it didn't change anything in respect of declaring SORN.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Raykay

[Raykay]

So the car has been driven while showing as SORN'd which is why it was clamped and as you say, the finance act allows it to be done on private land.

 

 

Logically yes, but legally the fact that it had been driven there on a public road would have to be proved, not assumed.

[sailor sam]

Logically yes, but legally the fact that it had been driven there on a public road would have to be proved, not assumed.

 

...or observed?

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[Raykay]

...or observed?

 

That would be good evidence that it was!

[GLADSTANES]

More quotes:-

 

This is verbatim from "Renewal reminder for a tax disc or SORN". (V11)

 

"If you decide not to renew your vehicle tax you must declare your vehicle is off the road by making a SORN.

 

(Garages, driveways and private land may be considered to be off-road areas)."

 

Would Buzby please give the definition of private land as evidenced above?

 

Regards

 

Gladstanes

[buzby]

I'm not an apologist for the government my friend. Similarly, what the DVLA may state is an irrelevance - it is the law that matters, not their interpretation of it.

 

If you have a car on SORN and it is parked in an ASDA car park, you've every right to be clamped, indeed I'd even help them stick on the labels.

[Raykay]

I'm not an apologist for the government my friend. Similarly, what the DVLA may state is an irrelevance - it is the law that matters, not their interpretation of it.

 

If you have a car on SORN and it is parked in an ASDA car park, you've every right to be clamped, indeed I'd even help them stick on the labels.

 

 

The DVLA form V11 is correct, Garages, driveways and private land may be considered to be off-road areas.

 

The only requirement for SORN is that the vehicle is not kept or used on a public road.

 

It can only be clamped on private land (with a few exceptions) if it is not licensed or SORN.

[buzby]

How did it get to the ASDA CP? Divine intervention?

 

Or is ASDA adding vehicle storage to their list of consumer offerings? Since the most likely scenario is that the vehicle is being used illegally anyway (as to transport it there and back from the 'residential storage' defies belief).

[Raykay]

In the OP's case according to his first post, he licensed the car the day before so he quite legally drove to ASDA, but it was still showing up as SORN on the clamper's computer, it should not have been clamped but NSL are not accepting they were wrong and are saying that he should have waited for the licence to arrive and displayed it before using his car, but you have five days grace for that.

 

It doesn't matter where the vehicle is - ASDA (or any other private car park), private drive or farmer's field - as long as it is not used or kept on a public road to get there if it is SORN. (trailer, recovery vehicle?)

Edited March 30, 2010 by Raykay

[buzby]

In the Op's case - if we're going back to specifics, he does not have 'five days grace'.

 

You get the 5 days grace for the continuance of a VED, NOT for transferring a SORN to a VED (and even if it is backdated to the 1st of the month, and the clamping took place on (say) day 3).

 

Certainly he was unlucky at being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and if stopped by the police, could easily prove he was legal by agreeing to display the documentation within 5 days at a nominated police station. If the (private agency) clamper did their work, let us not forget who is paying them. The motorist! So bad luck all round, but no court is going to set the bar by saying the fee should not be paid. It would be nice to believe they would - but I just don't see this happening.

[Raykay]

s. 147 Finance Act 2008 - Not exhibiting licence: period of grace

 

"In section 33 of VERA 1994 (not exhibiting licence), after subsection (1A)

insert—

“(1B) A person is not guilty of an offence under subsection (1) or (1A) by

using or keeping a vehicle on a public road during any of the 5 working

days following the time when a licence or nil licence for the vehicle, or

a relevant declaration applying to the vehicle, ceases to be in force, if an application for a licence or nil licence for or in respect of the vehicle to run from that time has been received before that time."

 

As the OP had re-licensed his car, that cancels the SORN which ceases to be in force, and the five days grace starts from then.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Raykay