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Brief history - PCN Jan 09 unpaid so Phoenix involved. Fee due to council £105 after NTA. 1 visit from bailiff, cash collected week or so later. Wanted to check fees so asked for statement. Then spoke to Tom Tubby who said to get screenshot of account. Phoenix said only available after SAR request. Info received today & here I think I have proof of their 'creative' figures. Need to know what to do about it all please.

 

Letter handed to me on 1st visit when payment collection agreed.

 

pcc1l.jpg

 

Statement of account:

 

pcc2.jpg

 

Response to SAR:

 

pcc3.jpg

pcc4.jpg

 

pcc5.jpg

pcc6.jpg

 

Clearly the dates & charges have altered on SAR from the one supplied on the statement.

I have no idea what pages 4 & 5 are supposed to be.

 

I do not dispute that there will be a 1st visit fee (but which one is relevant since they differ on the paperwork) I do strongly object to being charged a fee for her to come back for collection of cash when she didn't make that clear to me & had I known, I would have paid by other means that did not involve a further visit!!!! I am sure there is no provision in the regs to allow the DVLA fee either.

 

What is the next move to get these charges back please?

Edited by mkb
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they are not allowed to charge the DVLA fee

 

they have clearly falsley applied the attendance fee prior to the visit!

 

were they coming with the sole intention of collecting payment in full i.e. pre-arranged? If yes then they cannot charge for that visit either

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Hi

 

I have just done a search of Liz Lawrence on here

 

Certificated Bailiff

 

With the following results:

 

Forename Elizabeth Dawn

Surname Lawrence

Court Redditch County Court

Granted 09/01/2009

Expires 08/01/2011

Employer RES

 

The above data was viewed on Wednesday 13th Jan 2010 and is presumably accurate for this date.

 

I dont know the ins and outs of bailiff regulations but would ask other CAGers the following questions:

 

1. As of the date of this posting the Bailiff does not work for Phoenix. If she WAS NOT employed by Phoenix at the time of the collection visit (10th November 2009) would that visit have been legal? (or in other words can a registered Bailiff collect for any firm or must they be employed and therefore registered with a particular firm in order to be able to collect?)

 

2. If not then is it the case that the charges cannot be enforced?

 

3. I notice a van fee. Am I right in thinking that no van fee can be charged unless it is used to actually remove goods? (I remember seeing some case law on some other threads on here).

 

Correct and knowledgeable answers to the above questions might help this case. I regret I can ask the questions but not know the answers, and hope someone else can help.

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they are not allowed to charge the DVLA fee Didn't think so.

 

they have clearly falsley applied the attendance fee prior to the visit!

 

were they coming with the sole intention of collecting payment in full i.e. pre-arranged? If yes then they cannot charge for that visit either

 

Yes it was pre-arranged.

 

Hi

 

I have just done a search of Liz Lawrence on here

 

Certificated Bailiff

 

With the following results:

 

Forename Elizabeth Dawn

Surname Lawrence

Court Redditch County Court

Granted 09/01/2009

Expires 08/01/2011

Employer RES

 

The above data was viewed on Wednesday 13th Jan 2010 and is presumably accurate for this date.

 

I dont know the ins and outs of bailiff regulations but would ask other CAGers the following questions:

 

1. As of the date of this posting the Bailiff does not work for Phoenix. If she WAS NOT employed by Phoenix at the time of the collection visit (10th November 2009) would that visit have been legal? (or in other words can a registered Bailiff collect for any firm or must they be employed and therefore registered with a particular firm in order to be able to collect?)

 

2. If not then is it the case that the charges cannot be enforced?

 

3. I notice a van fee. Am I right in thinking that no van fee can be charged unless it is used to actually remove goods? (I remember seeing some case law on some other threads on here).

 

Correct and knowledgeable answers to the above questions might help this case. I regret I can ask the questions but not know the answers, and hope someone else can help.

 

Thank you Jimmy - your answers to your questions would be helpful to others as well as myself.

 

 

Hello guests *waving*

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I dont know the ins and outs of bailiff regulations but would ask other CAGers the following questions:

 

1. As of the date of this posting the Bailiff does not work for Phoenix. If she WAS NOT employed by Phoenix at the time of the collection visit (10th November 2009) would that visit have been legal? (or in other words can a registered Bailiff collect for any firm or must they be employed and therefore registered with a particular firm in order to be able to collect?)

.

 

 

Some one posted on a thread recently about this,and i can't find it:sad:

They were saying some bailiffs are self employed and have their own companies and then contract to other companies like phoenix,so they apply for their certificate in their company name.They would not be breaking any rules.

Hope it helps.

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post by tomtubby

Could you please note that a bailiff’s certificate is valid for just 2 years.

 

If your search reveals that the bailiff is working for a different company it is important to be aware that statutory regulations laid down by Parliament state that if there are "any changes" to the certificate then the bailiff must “without delay” give notice to the Court and a new certificate will be issued to him reflecting the changes. This is vitally important because in almost all cases, the bailiff’s bond will be cancelled when he leaves his previous employer!!

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Hi Jimmy

 

You may well be right that the bailiff does not appear on the list as given..

however that list is not updated and it is always safer to telephone the MOJ and ask them to search their records. Bailiff may well have application for new certificate recently approved back dated from the time the last one expired?

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Thankyou wonkeydonkey

 

It would seem then that if mkb calls the Ministry of Justice and asks for the status of the bailiff on the days of the collections (because there were 2) he would be able to find out if she was correctly registered. mkb if you do this ask them to confirm by letter.

 

Its a bit of a longshot but there could be some mileage here.

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I wonder if this was the link Welsh1 was referring to in his post above:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/95975-rundle-co-certified-bailiffs.html

 

Whether it is or not there is something interesting in the thread that has caught my eye.

 

According to the poster many local authorities require the contracted companies to employ their staff, not use sub contractors and have a clause in the contract to say so.

 

It might be possible to demonstrate that the collecting bailiff Elizabeth Lawrence did not work for Phoenix but was operating in a self employed capacity for them.

 

Using the Freedom of Information act it may be possible to obtain a copy of the contract between the council and Phoenix to see if there is a clause requiring staff to be employed.

 

If this is the case and they are not there is a breach of contract between the bailiff and the council.

 

If this could be established I don't know how it would help mkb but he could certainly cause some mischief with it.

 

I suggest to mkb that when he has finished talking to the MOJ to determine the employment status of the collecting bailiff that he get onto his council and asks for a copy of the contract. If they are unwilling he should try the Freedom of Information route.

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I wonder if this was the link Welsh1 was referring to in his post above:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/95975-rundle-co-certified-bailiffs.html

 

Whether it is or not there is something interesting in the thread that has caught my eye.

 

According to the poster many local authorities require the contracted companies to employ their staff, not use sub contractors and have a clause in the contract to say so.

 

It might be possible to demonstrate that the collecting bailiff Elizabeth Lawrence did not work for Phoenix but was operating in a self employed capacity for them.

there would appear to be a number of bailiffs all regisetered on the same date as this one and all employed by RES

 

Using the Freedom of Information act it may be possible to obtain a copy of the contract between the council and Phoenix to see if there is a clause requiring staff to be employed.

 

If this is the case and they are not there is a breach of contract between the bailiff and the council.

 

If this could be established I don't know how it would help mkb but he could certainly cause some mischief with it.

 

I suggest to mkb that when he has finished talking to the MOJ to determine the employment status of the collecting bailiff that he get onto his council and asks for a copy of the contract. If they are unwilling he should try the Freedom of Information route.

 

 

not sure who RES are nothing shows when googled

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as requested by mkb .....you may want to find out in your case if bailiffs can charge for the van charge if the debtor goods have not been mutually levied upon, (CAB) may be able to advise. You may find that if no levy has been done then it is illegal to charge for the van costs.

 

i think that it is not unreasonable for you to have a copy of the execution warrant again ask (CAB).

 

i think she is entitled to collect as an uncertified as long as she was intending to get certified within six months of conducting bailiff work.

 

all large bailiff co.s employ self employed bailffs (it seems to be the norm.) i dont think there is an issue with her carrying out these duties if she is self employed.

 

hope that helped

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Phoned MOJ who say that bailiffs last 3 certificates were issued at Reccitch CC & the list submitted to MOJ by Phoenix last August has her name on it.

 

CAB are useless on the topic of unfair charges IMO.

 

Any ideas anyone please - I just want back the money I should never have been charged :rolleyes:

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Sorry non that i'm aware of. Did MOJ not provide any explanation for that?

 

 

MOJ confirmed that she is registered as employed by Phoenix, not RES so nothing wrong there.

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as requested by mkb .....you may want to find out in your case if bailiffs can charge for the van charge if the debtor goods have not been mutually levied upon, (CAB) may be able to advise. You may find that if no levy has been done then it is illegal to charge for the van costs.

 

i think that it is not unreasonable for you to have a copy of the execution warrant again ask (CAB).

 

i think she is entitled to collect as an uncertified as long as she was intending to get certified within six months of conducting bailiff work.

 

all large bailiff co.s employ self employed bailffs (it seems to be the norm.) i dont think there is an issue with her carrying out these duties if she is self employed.

 

hope that helped

 

 

Your not allowed to collect on pcn;s unless certificated, you however can collect magistrate fines so long as you are certificated within 6 months of starting employment.

 

you vannot get a bailiffs certificate in the companies name, but a person has the option to apply from their home address or business address

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There was at least one other thread on here concerning some case law. From memory John Marstons were told by a judge the law did not allow them to charge a van fee unless goods were removed, even if the van was there. (They were also told they could not make charges for credit card transactions).

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Thanks Jimmy - found the case but it refers to clamping etc.

 

In my case there was NO levy so this is why I cant see that the fees can ever be described as reasonable.

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They cant charge a van fee without a valid levy

 

Thanks for that. They refer to it however as van/attendance fee so can they wriggle out of it?

 

So, do I simply write and ask for my money back?

 

Would I need to quote the regs & if so, which are the relevant ones?

 

Any thoughts on differences in the dates & charges between the statement & the response to SAR? The amounts and dates have been altered from 1 to the other so I truly have no idea now what is reasonable & legal for them to charge hence don't know what to ask for in reimbursement.....this is sooooooo confusing :confused:

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