Disciplinary Action Question

[MsWeatherwax]

Hi all

 

My friends daughter has just received a final written warning from the well known supermarket she works for, basically for not turning up for work for 2 days (they say!). It's quite a long story, so I'll give brief details, and if the other stuff is relevant, get into it then.

 

I asked her to get hold of any notes made during the meeting. The notes quite clearly state the following:

 

Manager: Would you like a representitive?

Daughter: Do I need one?

Manager: No, you don't.

 

Can he tell her that?

 

The reason I ask is, she had a verbal warning in May, but the disciplinary policy states that a verbal warning lasts 6 months. Going into this meeting, she thought that that warning was now "wiped out", so had no idea that this was likely to escalate into a final written warning. A manager has told her that even though the verbal warning lasts only 6 months, that's irrelevant because it's "conduct" and they can still give her a final written warning. (????????).

 

The stores disciplinary policy states:

 

For minor issues specifically including minor misconduct and attendance, your manager will make every effort to resolve the issue through counselling, then it goes onto:

 

1- Formal verbal warning

2- First written warning

3- Final written warning

 

Without going into full brutal details, it's also questionable (but I'm not sure PROVE-able), that the absence was unauthorised.

 

This is her first job, she's just turned 20 and was completely unprepared for this...it all seems a bit barmy to me, and I'm not sure her manager has a) played by the rules and b) isn't trying to get rid of her due to a conflict of personalities.

 

Any help gratefully appreciated.

 

Thank you!

 

MsW

[elpulpo]

I think what the manager said to her was misleading.

In response to her question, 'Do I need one?', he should have explained that whilst she didn't have to have a representative, she was entitled to have a representative present should she so wish. He should have said that if that were the case, he would postpone the meeting while she arranged for someone to accompany her.

 

Was she advised prior to the hearing of her right to a representative?

Was she given a letter inviting her to the hearing, along with any evidence the employer intended to rely on?

 

Was she told that her previous verbal warning was being taken into account with this matter, therefore 'pushing' the disciplinary sanction up to a final written warning? It could be that they considered her conduct serious enough to warrent a FWW at once?

[MsWeatherwax]

That's what I thought. It does clearly state that he just said "No, you don't".

 

She was given a letter, saying that she could take a colleague or union rep with her, but she was not told that the verbal warning still stood. No evidence was presented, and she had to ask twice for the notes of the meeting. No explanation is given in the notes as to why they felt a final written was necessary.

 

A very potted version of what actually happened is as follows:

 

She had to make up some time at work and was allotted 2 days over the Christmas period , which she initially agreed to. She is having some personal issues at the moment, and is in the process of giving up the flat she shares with her now ex-partner. She had to see the letting agent (this IS urgent - her grandparents are guarantors on the flat) and advised her manager that she would have to re-arrange the 2 extra days (giving him a weeks notice). He told her not to worry about it because she would just be "milling around" anyway, but during the disciplinary interview he denies saying this.

 

After Christmas, when she returned to work, the 2 days that had been crossed off the rota had been written back in (she has a copy of this) and she was handed the invitation to a disciplinary interview, which is dated 22 December - which is the first of the 2 days she was off.

 

Thanks very much for replying, Elpulpo - I really appreciate it.

[elpulpo]

Always a problem, when the manager says one thing and then later denies it.

I'd speculate that what perhaps happened is - he said yes, then his boss came in and played hell because there weren't enough staff - so he fiddled the rota to make it look like people hadn't showed up.

It's happened to me.

It's good that she's got a copy of the rota. Does she have any friends who could vouch for her? Always tricky I know, getting other people to stick their necks out.

It's appeal time.

[MsWeatherwax]

Yeah, exactly the same conclusion I came to.

 

Not sure if anyone could vouch for her, I never asked (should have been pretty obvious, lol), but will get on it. She has 7 days to appeal from today, so it's not HUGELY pressing.

 

What about skipping the first written? Or the verbal that can hang around for more than 6 months? Is there anything to play with there?

[elpulpo]

The severity of the warning, and whether the verbal counted towards it, are things to challenge at the appeal.

The tactic to use with appeals, is to elaborate in the letter requesting an appeal only just enough to satisfy the needs of the procedure (normally one is required to state in the appeal request letter what the grounds for your appeal are), but don't give them enough so they will already have an excuse prepared for the inadequecies of the disciplinary.

Then, when you get to the appeal hearing, you can put them on the spot.

Doesn't always work; they might request that you elaborate, but it's always worth a try.

[monkeychicken]

Doesn't always work; they might request that you elaborate, but it's always worth a try.

Even when they do ask you to elaborate, you can say you dont have adequate time to prepare and therefore will prefer to give oral evidence - but make sure you have it all written out, and read it out at the hearing.

[MsWeatherwax]

Depressing (but unsurprising) update for you all.

 

On Saturday, she went into work as normal and was talking to one of her colleagues while waiting for the machine she was operating to finish.

 

The manager that she has been having issues with appeared, shouted at her, threatened her job then sent her home, having told her he was having her suspended. As far as we can make out, this was for talking to her colleague.

 

I mentioned the first verbal warning she was given...that occurred last May, when she was unwell at work. He sent her home, then when she went in afterwards, he had told management that she had walked out. This seems to be forming a pattern, no?

 

I'm very concerned that he's going to sack her when she goes back in, saying that he didn't send her home, she just left. On the bright side, she has at least 1 witness to him making her leave this time.

 

Her request for an appeal hearing has to be in today - does this change anything?

[elpulpo]

Did he give her a letter, stating to her that she was being suspended?

 

It's a ploy that scumbags like this use - suspend/dismiss someone, don't substantiate that in writing, then claim that the employee just walked out.

 

She needs to submit a grievance about how this guy is behaving. It's not acceptable for a manager to shout at people.

[honeybee13]

Quite so, Elpulpo. Go for the grievance procedure. Also, shouting at an employee counts as workplace bullying.

[MsWeatherwax]

Right, my temper is becoming rather frayed now.

 

I've offered to go into any disciplinary with her as her representative - letter went in yesterday afternoon. Just had a text from her saying that the appeal meeting is tomorrow at 11am. Anyone get the feeling they don't want her to be prepared for this? I'm going to struggle to get that time off work, for a start.

 

I don't think for a second this is fair, but I'm inclined to call their bluff and just go in there.

 

Should she ask to start a greivance while she is in there or is that more appropriate outside of the disciplinary meeting?

[elpulpo]

A couple of things, MsWW.

Do you have a copy of the company's Disciplinary & Grievance procedure?

That should state the notice required for a hearing to be convened.

Usually it's 24 hours notice.

 

Are you sure that you're allowed to attend this meeting as her representative?

Usually, an employee is allowed to be accompanied by either a work colleague or a trade union representative. It would be unusual, if you're neither, for you to be allowed to attend.

 

If the timing of the hearing is inconvenient, it is reasonable to ask that the hearing be postponed. If you wish to request a postponement, you need to do so as soon as possible.

 

I'd write a grievance letter and submit it now. It should be dealt with as a seperate issue to the disciplinary matter.

[MsWeatherwax]

Thanks Elpulpo - I've actually just noticed that it says "colleague or union rep" in the policy. She's really going to struggle to get a rep from the company I think, and she has no Union. Really not sure what to do now.

 

I really appreciate all of the advice, you've been a great help.

[elpulpo]

OK. Has she recieved written notification of tomorrows hearing? (She should have done). She needs to contact whoever gave her the letter and request a postponement. Quick.

It'll give her a bit more time to get a rep.

Then we'll set about putting together a statement to present to the hearing.

[MsWeatherwax]

Hi everyone

 

Just to let you know she had her appeal hearing today (the other one I mentioned was cancelled, unsurprisingly!) - I'm pleased to say that even though she had to go in on her own, she got the warning downgraded to a first written warning which will only stay on file for 6 months.

 

She's also being moved to another part of the store, and general management is being supportive of her grievance claim.

 

I just wanted to say "thank you" to everyone for their advice and help, I really appreciate it.

 

MsW

[honeybee13]

That's good news, hopefully your friend can move on now. Thank you for letting us know.

[elpulpo]

Shouldn't have been any sort of a warning - she wasn't guilty of what she was accused of. Don't think she's going to do any better though.