Bank Charges Campaign Continues

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello caro!

 

Just goes to show what people power can do, and nice to see a government listening to its electorate. All we need to do now is work out how to get the people of this country to stand up and make our politicians listen.

 

Any ideas?

 

If we can make the spineless self-serving politicians think there is a serious danger of them not being elected, they will soon bend over for anything that might keep them on the Gravy Train.

 

Now is a damned good time to have a go. A General Election has a strange effect on politicians...they actually have to listen to the people for a change.

 

It's a pretty small window of opportunity, but the right cause could take off like Wildfire. YouTube, FaceBook, CAG etc...it's just a question of hitting the right note.

 

Dishonest politicians and dull greedy bankers are two issues that spring to mind. We can work with that, I am sure!

 

Cheers,

BRW

[determindator]

Hi Caro, fellow supporters,

 

Yes, brill idea Caro, transpose your thoughts as will I with the campaign crew.

 

Thinking caps on!

[Jamesx81x]

Yes but its British money they are refusing to hand back.

 

Money that we need!

[banker_rhymes_with]

Yes but its British money they are refusing to hand back.

But it was not the Icelandic people who saw any of it, so why should they be forced to pay for mistakes made by bankers?

 

The bankers' activities span all borders, and they have collectively made a smelly mess in most Countries.

 

My point is neither the Icelandic nor British people should pick up the tab for a failed Industry (hint, it is not an Industry) that makes nothing, contributes nothing and yet causes the majority of us to live in a Cloud Cuckoo debt based economy that rapes the planet by the back entrance, purely to support their greedy asset grabbing lifestyles.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited January 6, 2010 by banker_rhymes_with
Typo

[elseg]

Folowing this thread with interest.

A few celebs who may be interested

Bremner, Bird and Fortune (did those wonderful programmes about the banking industry)

and David Mitchell, who seems to be on TV and Radio most always atm is definately anti the whole banking shennaneghans

 

In fact alot of those comediens seem to be with us. Perhaps they could be persuaded to host a 'Comedy Relief' style fundraiser to help fund some of the cases to go through court.

 

Slightly OT, but Ive been searching the forum for over an hour now trying to find the link about where we change our application to the court, in the light of the OFT test case result. I had it up the other day but the computer crashed before I had a chance to copy it

[johnnymitch]

Hi elseg..... welcome aboard

 

I would wait until our legal and site team have had a chance to work out a new set of Patriculars of Claim (POCs)..... should be fairly soon now by all accounts... keep your eye on the 'Announcements' at the top of the forum pages .

The Consumer Forums - Announcements in Forum : HSBC Bank

Meanwhile if you've had a letter from your bank 'post OFT case' trying to get the court to strike out your claim , or giving you a time-scale to alter yor POCs ... .. come back and we can give you a holding letter to buy you some time ...

 

Sorry caro , didn't mean to usurp your thread on this .......

[determindator]

Hello Esleg,

 

Keep the thoughts coming. Just whilst i'm here, see post 34 on this thread if you want to sign the petition to reduce the time a credit ref agency holds details for.

 

Termi

[caro]

Folowing this thread with interest.

A few celebs who may be interested

Bremner, Bird and Fortune (did those wonderful programmes about the banking industry)

and David Mitchell, who seems to be on TV and Radio most always atm is definately anti the whole banking shennaneghans

 

In fact alot of those comediens seem to be with us. Perhaps they could be persuaded to host a 'Comedy Relief' style fundraiser to help fund some of the cases to go through court.

 

Slightly OT, but Ive been searching the forum for over an hour now trying to find the link about where we change our application to the court, in the light of the OFT test case result. I had it up the other day but the computer crashed before I had a chance to copy it

 

Hi and thanks for the ideas. That would certainly be interesting, but might be a logistical nightmare, to get them together in one place at the same time. I like your way of thinking though.

 

Perhaps it's time to start making contact to see if we can get some celeb support.

 

Hey Daniella, did you manage to find contact details for Michael McIntyre?

 

I've given some thought to suggested wording for a petition, and will post them up over the weekend. In the meantime I've emailed my MP to see what (if anything) the Government propose to do about the situation. This is what I said.

 

Dear Mr Plaskitt

 

You may recall that I came to see you some 2 years ago regarding the issue of bank charges, both as your constituent, and as a representative of the Consumer Action Group.

 

OFT Test Case Updates and Discussion - The Consumer Forums

 

Before the Supreme Court ruling in the case between the OFT v Banks on bank charges in November, leaders of the three major parties had all called for automatic refunds for customers. Given that the Supreme Court upheld the banks appeal, but suggested that regulation 5 of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 may be applicable, I would like to know what the Government position is now on bank charges.

 

There are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of court claims of bank charges which are still on hold, and the OFT have yet again failed to protect the public from banks. Where does this leave us now, and what do the Government propose to do about it?

 

I would welcome your comments.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Caro

[kiptower]

nice letter Caro to MP cant wait to see his reply

[caro]

Thanks Kip. To be fair he is a very proactive MP, has been on the Treasury Select Committee that questioned Sir Fred, and was involved in ensuring banking was accessible to all. He also wrote to the OFT for me, but hasn't pursued the charges issue further as far as I know.

 

Last time he replied within a couple of days.

[caro]

Mind you, he is a Labour MP in what was a very safe Tory constituency, so he needs to keep ahead of the game if he wants to keep his very marginal majority.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello caro!

 

One problem with MPs that many of us are faced with, is the fact that many are wholly discredited and are standing down at the next Election.

 

These people did not even have the decency to stand down and get out of the way to allow someone else to do their job properly.

 

In the meantime, they are collecting their honey, and they are no doubt still submitting expenses to get at the honey-comb as well.

 

Many people have non-MPs at the moment. I really would love to write to my MP, but the idiot is probably on holiday or relaxing in front of the fire with their pipe and slippers.

 

For all those in the same position, I would perhaps suggest writing to the Party Leaders instead, all of them. Make it clear you have a non-functioning MP, could they appoint a working one please to handle the issue instead?

 

Cheers,

BRW

[yourbank]

I suspect that the Government will comment as they did immediately after the Supreme Court Judgement:

Is there anyway of being able to make any petition specifically to avoid the standard response Caro. From the wording it gives them the opt out of "we are working with the OFT, banks and consumer groups etc,etc,".

 

 

"Sarah McCarthy Fry, Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury, said the government was "determined" to make sure the system was made fairer in future.

"Consumers, who have been waiting a number of years, will be extremely disappointed with this outcome.

"It is clear that in the past, banks were not thinking enough about their customers. That needs to change for the future.

"The government will work with the OFT and Financial Services Authority to reach a new framework for fairer bank charges going forward.""

Source: BBC News - Banks win Supreme Court case on overdraft charges

[yourbank]

Michael McIntyre's myspace page where you can contact him is here: Michael Mcintyre on MySpace Comedy - Comic Clips, Funny Videos & Jokes

 

Have taken info from his official website and his agents website.

[caro]

Good points BRW and thanks for the info and link YB.

 

I've had a look at the petition website which says they don't accept petitions which are similar to others already up and running, and there are a few on bank charges issues. Number 10 have to approve it before it can be hosted on the site.

 

I know I have a tendency to be verbose, but I think the points I've raised are valid, even though the Govt should be aware of them. Comments welcome on first draft.

 

We, the undersigned, oppose the unfair and systematic way banks charge extortionate amounts to customers for purported services. People who do not have enough money to cover bills and living expenses, are the very people being forced to pay these charges, thus making their situation worse, as money they need is taken from their accounts. This leads to such problems as inability to pay day to day living expenses, and going without or cutting down on basic human needs like, food, clothing and heat in an attempt, not only to live within their means, but to pay the banks the money they demand.

 

People are being forced into bankruptcy, harassed by debt collection agencies, (many using dubious practices), losing their homes forcing families to live apart, relationships to break down, and mental and physical health being affected as a result of the stress of the situation, and in some cases, suicide.

 

It is inconceivable that the British Bankers Association, the Financial Services Authority and the Financial Ombudsman Service cannot see the hardship that these charges inflict on the least well off, and allow the banks to carry on at will, and we have no faith in their ability to resolve the ongoing problems.

 

We demand that the Government take action to redress the balance for bank customers, which the Supreme Court have questioned under the UTCCR reg 5, and that the Office of Fair Trading see as a problem, despite their puzzling decision not to pursue the matter further. The law needs clarifying, or changing quickly to prevent more poverty and suffering.

[yourbank]

Which law? from what to what ?

[yourbank]

Sorry Caro I really don't understand what you are trying to acheive with that.

 

The future of bank charges and personal accounts is being looked at heavily and things are changing for the better, the white papers, the market studys, BCOBS regulations etc etc. I don't agree with the 'carry on at will' part.

 

With your references to the Judgment I think you are petitioning for redress for historical charges and past actions of the banks, which is what the test case was primarily wanted for, and the part where you talk about changing the law, I assume you are meaning as indicated by comments in the judgment ?

 

Moreover Ministers and Parliament may wish to consider the matter further. They decided, in an era of socalled “light-touch” regulation, to transpose the Directive as it stood rather than to confer the higher degree of consumer protection afforded by the national laws of some other

member states. Parliament may wish to consider whether to revisit that decision.

and

93. I would only add that, should this or any other Parliament be minded to take up the invitation given in the last paragraph of Lord Walker’s judgment, it may not be easy to find a satisfactory solution. The banks may not be the most popular institutions in the country at present, but that does not mean that their methods of charging for retail banking services are necessarily unfair when viewed as a whole. As a very general

proposition, consumer law in this country aims to give the consumer an informed choice rather than to protect the consumer from making an unwise choice. We buy all sorts of products which a sensible person might not buy and some of which are not good value for the money. We do so with our eyes open because we want the product in question more

than we want the money. Should financial services be treated differently from other goods and services? Or is the real problem that we do not have a real choice because the suppliers all offer much the same product and do not compete on some of their terms?

This is the situation here. But it is not clear to me whether the proper solution is to find some way of forcing the suppliers to compete with one another in the terms they offer or whether the solution is to condemn one particular model of charging for those services.

Fortunately, however, that is for Parliament and not for this Court

so thus the UK interpretation of article 4(2) ???

 

 

I think a petition to force the OFT to refer the banks to the Competition Commission for an inquiry might also be an idea.

 

I also don't think the OFT's decision is puzzling, they spelt out the reasons pretty clearly.

Edited January 9, 2010 by yourbank
spelt Judgment incorrectly

[caro]

As I said Yourbank, this was a first draft, but I think the OFT have had more than enough time to resolve the issues, and as they are not an elected body they don't have the same need to answer to the public.

 

It is a non-ministerial Government department, so IMHO we should be going straight to the top.

 

The law I refer to is the law of the land and what entitles banks to rip us off. I take your point that it needs to be clearer.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello caro!

 

I fear the Petition could be in danger of disappearing in amongst all of the others, unless we can come up with something short and hard hitting...something that the Nation and his/her dog can get their head around...and flock to the cause in their Millions.

 

Taking the cue from the Icelandic people, something like:

 

We, the British people, refuse to pay for the mistakes made by the banks. We demand the immediate liquidation of as many UK based banks as needed until this wholly discredited group settle their own commercial debts. In the meantime, we demand emergency level Consumer and Business protection to safeguard the people while a profoundly fairer, more transparent and significantly better regulated financial system is established. One that exists to serve and support the Nation rather than one that simply feeds upon the Nation.

Cheers,

BRW

[yourbank]

lol I like that BRW.

 

Right Caro, why not spell out exactly what government should do to force redress for consumers. Whats wrong with the directive implementation in the UK as opposed to say, Germany ? Spell it out so the government can't come back, as I said before, with generic bull. Put it in PIL so people know what you are asking for and so the government know what is needed of them.

[caro]

Hello caro!

 

I fear the Petition could be in danger of disappearing in amongst all of the others, unless we can come up with something short and hard hitting...something that the Nation and his/her dog can get their head around...and flock to the cause in their Millions.

 

Taking the cue from the Icelandic people, something like:

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

I agree it does need to be punchier and am happy to scrap my starting point. Just trying to set the ball rolling.

 

However I'm not sure that your suggestion makes clear to Joe Public that bank charges are part of the issue.

[yourbank]

I think the OFT have had more than enough time to resolve the issues, and as they are not an elected body they don't have the same need to answer to the public.

 

But they are working on it, they have been held up with the legal issues but now know where they stand, they have made massive changes and are continuing to do so, work WITH them as well as petitioning the government and guide them in the direction the people on the ground actually WANT and need. It is relevant to the thread as you are talking about redress AND the ongoing situation with regards bank charging, and no its not down to me to start a thread about it, you have a forum dedicated to the current work the OFT ARE doing, you could be doing so much more, as a site not just you personally. Sitting and winging and making petitions and talking about protests that wont happen will not change things.

[caro]

lol I like that BRW.

 

Right Caro, why not spell out exactly what government should do to force redress for consumers. Whats wrong with the directive implementation in the UK as opposed to say, Germany ? Spell it out so the government can't come back, as I said before, with generic bull. Put it in PIL so people know what you are asking for and so the government know what is needed of them.

 

If the German implementation is better perhaps you could expand on that for those of us who haven't studied how the rest of the EU handle it.

 

I'm not trying to pretend I know everything YB, so specifics would be better if you can come up with something.

 

I don't know what you mean by PIL.

[yourbank]

Plain Intelligible Language (sorry that wasn't a good example of such)

 

I'm just pointing out Germany as an example as their unfair terms law is much much stronger than ours (I can find a copy if you really want but its quite tedious) and takes the directive much further (actually I think the directive came FROM the german law first) As in the Judgment we haven't and it could be strengthened. If the government won't do it, then it needs a reference to the ECJ from the high court.

 

I'm simply trying to get something more specific to be petitioned for, so the government can't turn round and say the OFT are looking at it etc like they did with the Charter petition, so if we want a Competition Inquiry, we say we want one and why, If we want law changing we say which ones and why - the heart strings pulling stuff has been done over and over and possibly creates a few questions in parliament and some sympathetic noises, but when it comes down to it we are stuck with what the OFT/FSA are doing, until we get something high enough up in the court system, or we get the government to step in.

 

We know they can't just change the law to suit us off the back of one issue, else the banks would just take the government to court wouldnt they.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello caro!

 

I agree it does need to be punchier and am happy to scrap my starting point. Just trying to set the ball rolling.

No problem at all, it wasn't a criticism of your efforts.

 

My concern is we have perhaps a golden chance here to make a difference, the best one we have had in perhaps decades. We need to give it our best shot while we have the chance.

 

Here is why:

 

• There is a General Election looming.
  

 

• The Economy is in deep recession and could yet go a lot deeper, or we may see an engineered false-hope recovery with serious inflation (pump that much number-money in and prices will be affected once that number-money finally starts working its evil magic).
  

 

• The banks are the cause of this, not the people nor real businesses (banks and most of the financial groups living off the Nation do not count as businesses).
  

 

• The resident crop of politicians have demonstrated their true self-serving and dishonest tendencies.
  

 

• The Courts have demonstrated a reluctance to support the people.
  

 

• The Regulators have demonstrated a bias towards the banks, and a reluctance to support the people.
  

 

• The DCAs are out of control and causing real misery. People who can make a difference (such as comedians like Michael McIntyre who have a huge potential audience) are now increasingly aware of this, some having suffered this at first hand.
  

 

• The people behind the banks, financial organisations and the politicians themselves, are a very small minority compared to the Nation as a whole. The new obscene banking Phoenix profits and huge greedy banking bonuses now popping back up on the scope are angering millions.
  

 

• The political parties are almost indistinguishable from one another, none are showing any real desire for change that will benefit the people who they hope will re-elect them.
  

 

I feel that if we concentrate upon some core issues albeit simplistic ones, rather than getting bogged down with specific technical areas that will only serve to make most people go all distant and blank, then it might be possible to set something in motion that might just gather momentum. Once rolling, then the core simplistic issues may gather up the more specific and complex issues as the larger ball becomes unstoppable.

 

I honestly do not know who to vote for. The major Parties are not saying the right things, and whilst some of the smaller Parties are, there are some strings attached that many will not accept.

 

The next General Election is in danger of being either a damp squib, or a messy hung Parliament. Unless someone, somewhere starts something, then things will carry on as before. We need to get it across to the egotists that people want and need some real changes. If we let them revert to the existing system, then the engineered banking swings will get bigger and deeper. We will be destined to wobble alarmingly from false boom to real bust until we own nothing and owe everything.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited January 9, 2010 by banker_rhymes_with
Typo