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Dissecting the Manchester Test Case....


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5.6 In particular, the OFT’s guidance to creditors or owners on this issue is

as follows:

 

• Where an agreement is unenforceable because of non-compliance

with an information request under sections 77-79, the OFT would

firstly expect the creditor or owner to take steps to check that

there was in fact an agreement with the debtor or hirer, and in

particular whether there are in fact monies outstanding under it,

and if so for how much. This should be capable of being

demonstrated to the debtor or hirer.

 

 

 

Thank you Emandcole

I think this says it all. The Creditor should check if they have a contract AND IT SHOULD BE DEMONSTRATED TO THE DEBTOR OR HIRER.

that seems pretty clear to me.

John

 

 

And if they have gone that far to ensure there IS a document.. why the hell not just copy it and send it out ??

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I have recieved from my friend this morning a reply from Carter.The OC is Nationwide.Last July 2009 Carter said that the account was on hold and that the matter was being referred back to Nationwide...In Oct last year we put in a s78 request...No reply

 

A further letter was put in for a s78 request earlier this month

 

Still no reply...but a letter was dated from him 19th Feb 2010 which was handed to me today saying

 

''Our client has obtained a judgement against you and is entitled to enforce that judgement and accordingly we look forward to hearing from you with payment proposals.''

 

My friend has received nothing in relation to any judgement let alone any notice that court proceedings had in fact begun.he received no defence form or anything of that nature.

 

What should the reply be...can anyone advise on this please

 

 

rgds

 

m2ae :confused:

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I have recieved from my friend this morning a reply from Carter.The OC is Nationwide.Last July 2009 Carter said that the account was on hold and that the matter was being referred back to Nationwide...In Oct last year we put in a s78 request...No reply

 

A further letter was put in for a s78 request earlier this month

 

Still no reply...but a letter was dated from him 19th Feb 2010 which was handed to me today saying

 

''Our client has obtained a judgement against you and is entitled to enforce that judgement and accordingly we look forward to hearing from you with payment proposals.''

 

My friend has received nothing in relation to any judgement let alone any notice that court proceedings had in fact begun.he received no defence form or anything of that nature.

 

What should the reply be...can anyone advise on this please

 

 

rgds

 

m2ae :confused:

 

Start a new thread in the legal forum... this is a known tactic of carter, using previous addresses to serve court documents on...

 

first thing to find out is if indeed he's telling the truth, Get your friend to write back asking for the court and case ref the judgment was obtained in.

 

then get them to phone the court and find out if its true.... if it is they'll need to apply to set aside the verdict, but if you cen get them to get the initial details and post them up we can progress that as it goes.

 

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And if they have gone that far to ensure there IS a document.. why the hell not just copy it and send it out ??

 

 

I agree 100%, instead they mislead you to think there is an agreement with a copy of what they believe is a reconstruction.

There is no such thing as a 0% credit card....... someone out there is paying for it, and for once its not going to be me.:razz:

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Start a new thread in the legal forum... this is a known tactic of carter, using previous addresses to serve court documents on...

 

first thing to find out is if indeed he's telling the truth, Get your friend to write back asking for the court and case ref the judgment was obtained in.

 

then get them to phone the court and find out if its true.... if it is they'll need to apply to set aside the verdict, but if you cen get them to get the initial details and post them up we can progress that as it goes.

 

S.

 

Many Thanks S

 

I will start a thread specifically for this..how do I start one-hee hee.

He has used the phrase ''we look forward to hearing from you with payment proposals''

 

Assuming there was a CCJ would it not be for the court to decide.Just a liitle something that an experienced reader tends to pick up on.

 

rgds

 

m2ae:)

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Even if there had been a judgement issued by the court, would your friend not be able to apply for a set aside on the basis that the other side knew it wasnt the most recent address and thus the papers couldnt have been properly served?

If they have done this - knowingly - would that not be grounds for complaint to FSA. Not important on its own, but if enough people complain about this kind of conduct then it just might put an end to it.

If they have not done this - ie there is no CCJ - same thing. Its one kind of dishonesty or another?

Also, does this suggest a certain lack of confidence in the case if the papers had been properly served - or served at all!

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Many Thanks S

 

I will start a thread specifically for this..how do I start one-hee hee.

He has used the phrase ''we look forward to hearing from you with payment proposals''

 

Assuming there was a CCJ would it not be for the court to decide.Just a liitle something that an experienced reader tends to pick up on.

 

rgds

 

m2ae:)

I'm pretty sure you'll find there's no judgement. If there was, why would they be asking you for a payment proposal?

 

In the unlikely event there is a CCJ, they've clearly done a Carter and served it at an old address, yet as usual [not being the brightest of bulbs in the box] they've then slipped up by immediately contacting you at a new address, which they've clearly known all along. As such a set aside should be no problem.

 

All the same though, I bet my bottom dollar there is no judgement. Do a little research to confirm this, then tell Carter to blow it out of his bum.

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Find out which court probably Northampton Court , they are not allowed to misinform a person that a CCJ has been obtained when it has not - A FSA rule, if they are lying which sime banks have in my case report them to ALL and sundry. from what you say they will not have one but check. Also post up here their letter - minus personal details, others may identify letter authentacy???

:mad2::-x:jaw::sad:
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Find out which court probably Northampton Court , they are not allowed to misinform a person that a CCJ has been obtained when it has not - A FSA rule, if they are lying which sime banks have in my case report them to ALL and sundry. from what you say they will not have one but check. Also post up here their letter - minus personal details, others may identify letter authentacy???

 

 

Will do

 

thanks

 

m2ae

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And if they have gone that far to ensure there IS a document.. why the hell not just copy it and send it out ??

 

It's clear the OFT are saying provided they can establish that a loan was entered into & there are outstanding monies then the production of a valid agreement by the creditor to enforce the debt is NOT necessary.

 

This was the basis of their comments in the Manchester case & apart from being wrong in law it's a dam disgrace that the OFT seem to think they are legally qualified to make such a statement (It's also a complete reversal of their previously publicly stated position)

 

 

It's rubbish as only a court can determine if a contract is enforceable

 

Keep it up OFT cos I see a Francovitch moment approaching:rolleyes: It won't be just the creditor in the doc it'll also be the OFT

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Having a real problem with photobucket link for uploading this evening.I shall try and ''GET CARTER''s 2 letters up as soon as I get a new fresh account with Photobucket.

 

I have wasted 3 hrs trying a simple thing like that but to no avail....ggrrrrrr

 

 

m2ae:mad:

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Keep it up OFT cos I see a Francovitch moment approaching:rolleyes: It won't be just the creditor in the doc it'll also be the OFT

 

Do you think a Judicial Review would also be another avenue to explore?

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Having a real problem with photobucket link for uploading this evening.I shall try and ''GET CARTER''s 2 letters up as soon as I get a new fresh account with Photobucket.

Try tinypic.com instead..much faster, no registration needed :)

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Try tinypic.com instead..much faster, no registration needed :)

 

Thanks UE

 

Just as you spoke..I made it:)

 

Here are all the replies received a few days ago from my friend..he's on DLA and so I am trying to sort things out for him

 

Earlier this month I sent of s78 requests to Mint.A request was sent to them a couple of months ago..and they STILL HAVE NOT given a copy.But responded twice.

 

Three Requests were made to CARTER as early as June of last year and we STILL HAVE HAD NO COPY but he responded twice with 1 page responses

 

CABOT are WOUNDED!!!

 

BARCLAYCARD responded to a SAR request and gave us this 3 page rubbish...

 

Any of this look familiar!!

 

I have an idea as how to proceed but shall wait upon all the Caggers collective wisdom ..Look forward to comments!!

 

rgds

 

m2ae:)

 

MintRBS1stResponse-S78.jpg

MintRBS2ndResponse.jpg

 

Carter-02July09.jpg

Carter-26Oct2010.jpg

 

Cabot.jpg

 

BarclaySARresponsepage1of3.jpg

BarclaySARresponsepage2of3.jpg

BarclaySARresponsepage3of3.jpg

 

THE SAR REQUEST WAS FROM CAG TEMPLATE

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M2ae..... your problems are likely to get lost in this thread, but for info....

 

Mint.... don't seem to have an Agreement, but have complied with your request in the sense that you've had what they've got under the 1983 regs. Nothing enforceable in court under CCA, 1974 though (but you'll need to tell them you know this).

 

Bryan Carter mentions a CCJ.... were you aware of this? Payments do have to be maintained on a CCJ, yes..... but you are entitled to receive proof of Carter's legal entitlement to receive those payments and a Statement of Account.

 

Cabot..... seem to have backed off. The seem to be behaving themselves quite well recently....

 

Barclaycard..... same as for Mint.

 

:)

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cheers Proirity

 

I am subbing on a Carter thread due to a link from a site team member.

 

But What you have stated was along the lines I thought except that MINT STILL have not sent a s78.She seems to be conflating the inception of the agreement with a request made during the lifetime of the agreement and made after it.

 

A s85 situation and s78 request are two entirely separate and differing circumstance and she seems to think that the agreement that was sent BEFORE the card was received (Sometime in the 90's )which was when my mates agreement was sometime allegedly made is sufficient and that now she is not under s78 Duty...mmmm

 

That is where the confusion lies..she is refusing to send a s78 even though we have requested it twice now both requests having been made 4 months apart.

 

In fact the provision does suggest that a request can be made every month as long as ''not more than one request is made in any one

month.''

 

So that legal theory would suggest that if one was to use this provision to it's MAX in truth you could be in receipt 12 copies a year or factoring in the 40 days then the number of copies applicable.

 

 

m2ae

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M2ae..... your problems are likely to get lost in this thread, but for info....

 

Mint.... don't seem to have an Agreement, but have complied with your request in the sense that you've had what they've got under the 1983 regs. Nothing enforceable in court under CCA, 1974 though (but you'll need to tell them you know this).

 

Bryan Carter mentions a CCJ.... were you aware of this? Payments do have to be maintained on a CCJ, yes..... but you are entitled to receive proof of Carter's legal entitlement to receive those payments and a Statement of Account.

 

Cabot..... seem to have backed off. The seem to be behaving themselves quite well recently....

 

Barclaycard..... same as for Mint.

 

:)

 

 

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...

 

IN fact the letter states that he is looking forward to my mate ''making payment proposals''...strange if he has already got CCJ...dont the Court have some say on how when and the amount is to be payable.He has not received venue for proceedings ..all the forms associated with Court Proceedings...in fact according to the latest letter from this bloke..''the account was on hold and had been referred to his client''

 

m2ae:)

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I think Carter need to be reported to the SRA. If they have indeed obtained a CCJ against you why did you not know about it? Wrong address used probably on purpose, a valid reason to obtain a set aside. Having siad that I doubt very much a CCJ has been obtained as it's for the judge to set the nature of any repayment programme.

 

Why are they asking you to offer payment in a letter, they'd just say you must pay us this or we'll go back to the court and inform them you're not complying with any court direction. What a load of losers.

 

Definitely complain to the SRA about their behaviour as this is completely unacceptable, sure they're simply trying it on.

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That is where the confusion lies..she is refusing to send a s78 even though we have requested it twice now both requests having been made 4 months apart.

 

In fact the provision does suggest that a request can be made every month as long as ''not more than one request is made in any one

month.''

 

So that legal theory would suggest that if one was to use this provision to it's MAX in truth you could be in receipt 12 copies a year or factoring in the 40 days then the number of copies applicable.

 

m2ae

 

Why one earth are you pushing so hard to get hold of something! :confused:

 

You only need to make one CCA request for it to still stand... and although they may have got around the request, they still haven't produced anything enforceable..... so what are you hoping to achieve by pushing? Something that is enforceable?

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I think Carter need to be reported to the SRA. If they have indeed obtained a CCJ against you why did you not know about it? Wrong address used probably on purpose, a valid reason to obtain a set aside. Having siad that I doubt very much a CCJ has been obtained as it's for the judge to set the nature of any repayment programme.

 

Why are they asking you to offer payment in a letter, they'd just say you must pay us this or we'll go back to the court and inform them you're not complying with any court direction. What a load of losers.

 

Definitely complain to the SRA about their behaviour as this is completely unacceptable, sure they're simply trying it on.

 

 

Careful Carter have in the past claimed to have CCJ's which never existed They were reported then & claimed it was a 'technical' error:evil:. If they are still doing it report them to the SRA asap

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Why one earth are you pushing so hard to get hold of something! :confused:

 

You only need to make one CCA request for it to still stand... and although they may have got around the request, they still haven't produced anything enforceable..... so what are you hoping to achieve by pushing? Something that is enforceable?

 

 

Yes u r quite right

 

b careful what u wish for ?...comes to mind

 

I will leave it now.

 

thanks

 

m2ae;)

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