NatWest Overdraft - DMP & Default, advice?

[bradfordlad]

Hi all,

 

further to my posts on other creditors, could I ask for some guidance?

 

It may be very straightforward, but all my research so far has been about loans & credit cards.

 

Due to a change in personal circumstances, I am not in a position to clear my n/w overdraft of £750. With interest & charges, this now stands at about £900!

 

I wrote to them as part of a self-administered DMP, offering a small pro-rata payment with details of my other creditors & a SoA.

 

They've now rejected my offer, and they've very kindly sent me a Default Notice!

 

What happens next? I understand that overdrafts are not subject to CCA as there's no agreement signed as such, so I cant send a CCA request.

 

Any thoughts....??

 

Cheers, BL

 

I've attached the DN if that helps anyone?

 

Cheers

 

BL

 

Bump!

 

Dare I bump again?!

 

Does anyone know if they have given me enough time to remedy (based on Christmas etc), and also - is the timescale even relevant when its an overdraft rather than a credit agreement?

 

Cheers...... BL

default.pdf

Edited January 31, 2019 by dx100uk
merge

[ieuanMr]

They do say in their loetter that you can apply to the court to make smaller payments. If you are not in dispute over the debt at least it must be worth something to ask the court to decide. Hop ona bus to your local county court and ask them how to do that.

 

regards

 

Ieuan

[bradfordlad]

They've now written to me asking me to complete their budget planner. I have already sent them 2 copies of the original SOA that CCCS helped us prepare!

 

Should I send them a 3rd copy? I've too much on to spend filling in their version which gives you the same information!

 

Cheers

 

BL

[tedney]

Did you send the originals by recorded delivery? I suggest send a further copy by recorded with acovering letter reminding them that they already have the info. Someone else on here with more experience may be able to help further.

[bradfordlad]

Hi tedney, and thanks for posting. I didn't send them recorded, but they've cashed the cheques that were stpaled to the letters so they;ve defintiely had them!

[tedney]

Hello again. Might be an idea to send another recorded. Office that cashes the cheques may not have told office that you are writing to:(

[bradfordlad]

Do you think faxing is a good idea? They seem to reply to faxes quite quickly.

[tedney]

Never have faxed myself, they could deny receipt? Whereas recorded is monitored by third party (royal mail) so, IMHO better.

[bradfordlad]

Just bumping up the original question regarding validity of the Default Notice. I calculate it ony gives me 17 days (24th December to 10th Janaury) to resolve the matter. Assuming non-1st class postage i.e 4 days, this only gives me 13 days to resolve - totally ignoring the fact that half of these were public holidays! Is that relevant?

 

I wonder if anyone can tell me whether a defective DN is useful or not when negotiating with a bank over an overdraft?

 

Thanks in advance...

 

BL

 

Can anyone help with this?

 

Thanks

[tedney]

Have a look here bl:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/208663-tale-dodgy-dn-further.html

Taken from post number 103 by vint195 on HSBC credit card thread.

I hope this helps, maybe an expert will comment further.

[bradfordlad]

Hi everyone, all has been quiet on the Natwest front for several weeks now.

 

Had a nice letter from Triton Credit Services (RBS inhouse) asking me to pay the full amount outstanding. Ah well, you should have just asked, cash or cheque? DOH!!

 

Honestly....

 

Anyway, just having another look at the DN sent by Natwest, and I think it's definitely defective - HOWEVER, do the same rules apply for overdrafts as they do for credit cards/loans?

 

The Default Notice is dated 24th December. The envelope isn't postmarked, but it's one of those with a sort of wheel and next to it a large "S" in a box with C9 10006 underneath - am I right in thinking this is considered as 2nd class?

 

So, DN dated 24th December, advises me that if I have not made an arrangement to repay the overdraft (ALL of it, not the "overlimit" part) by 10th January, then they will terminate the overdraft on or after that date.

 

Assuming that DN's for overdrafts still have to give 14 days notice, then this one is way out, as 24th Dec was Friday, so 4 working days for 2nd class post takes you to Monday 4th January + 14 days = 18th January - they gave me till 10th!!

 

Any thoughts?

 

Actually, it doesnt specifically say "DEFAULT Notice", its titled "Notice served under sections 76(1) and 98(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974" and to the right there's a box that says "For Bank Use Only Overdraft Enforcement/".

 

Confused now....

 

had a letter from Triton today -

 

FINAL NOTICE - DO NOT IGNORE

 

To avoid us recommending Natwest to prgress recovery action, within the next 72 hours you must either - pay in full or contact us on the phone number quoted.

 

Failure to do so will result in this matter being passed to solicitors who may then commence one of the following actions:

 

Charging order / Inhibition against assets for the sum outstanding. This may even result in our client being granted possession of your property.

 

Attachment of earnings / wage arrestment. Your employers will be instructed by the court to deduct a set amount ............

 

 

Now - although I know that they are idle threats, there's a part of me worried about the charging order part. Not worried about attachment of earnings - neither of us are working at the moment!!!!

 

I sent them a fax yesterday, so I know thats crossed with this letter, my fax basically said - look, are you stupid? You want it all, we aint got it - I can give you a bit each month, but every month you add interest & charges, is effectively increasing the repayment period by 12 months - do the maths!!!

 

Can anyone enlighten me on the Default / enforcement notice i mentioned in my post up there?

 

cheers..

 

BL

 

Heres my reply to their letter - is it a bit strong? I've had enough..!

 

 

Further to your letter of 21st February, which has obviously crossed with my fax yesterday.

 

I’m not really sure what else to say in this case. You are obviously not the only creditor we are dealing with at this difficult time, but you do seem to be the only one who either can’t or doesn’t read my letters – either that or you don’t understand their content. My other creditors have accepted the reduced payments as proposed way back in September, and most have frozen interest and charges – they obviously want to help....

 

In view of this, I will reiterate my position one more time – we cannot pay you any more than £xxx a month towards the balance. If you keep adding interest etc to the account, it will never be repaid.

 

I have sent you (several times) a copy of our income & expenditure, which hasn’t (as yet) changed since I wrote to you in September.

 

I’m at a loss as to what to do next – I know this letter is a waste of my time as you won’t read it, or you’ll ignore it. If that is the case, then perhaps its is best if the case goes before a District Judge who may show more common sense than you seem to possess.

 

I await your response with interest (although I won’t hold my breath...)

[tedney]

Hi BL

I hope you are sending it by recorded delivery? I don't think it is too strong, but I would omit "You are obviously not the only creditor we are dealing with" unless they can see this from your i & e info, then I would "respectfully":rolleyes: refer them to this! Good Luck.

T

[bradfordlad]

Hi tedney, I've actually been faxing them, and I know they've had them as they were included in my SAR reply that came last week.

 

I have provided them with a breakdown of how we calculated our pro-rata offer, so they are aware of our other creditors. Whether they've read it or not is another matter!!! Thanks for your advice

[citizenB]

Hi everyone, all has been quiet on the Natwest front for several weeks now.

 

Had a nice letter from Triton Credit Services (RBS inhouse) asking me to pay the full amount outstanding. Ah well, you should have just asked, cash or cheque? DOH!!

 

Honestly....

 

Anyway, just having another look at the DN sent by Natwest, and I think it's definitely defective - HOWEVER, do the same rules apply for overdrafts as they do for credit cards/loans?

 

The Default Notice is dated 24th December. The envelope isn't postmarked, but it's one of those with a sort of wheel and next to it a large "S" in a box with C9 10006 underneath - am I right in thinking this is considered as 2nd class?

 

So, DN dated 24th December, advises me that if I have not made an arrangement to repay the overdraft (ALL of it, not the "overlimit" part) by 10th January, then they will terminate the overdraft on or after that date.

 

Assuming that DN's for overdrafts still have to give 14 days notice, then this one is way out, as 24th Dec was Friday, so 4 working days for 2nd class post takes you to Monday 4th January + 14 days = 18th January - they gave me till 10th!!

 

Any thoughts?

 

I dont think this is a Default notice as such but imagine that there would be some question as to whether sufficient time was allowed for any remedy.

 

24th December 2009.. Christmas Eve !! So it almost certainly wouldnt have been collected until Tuesday the 29th. It was so urgent, they then sent it 2nd class mailing which the regulations advise an allowance of 4 business days is to be given... ???

[bradfordlad]

Thanks citizenb - exactly!

 

I still can't find a definitive answer as to whether an overdraft "needs" a Default Notice, and if the creditor is at fault if they don't issue one, or it isn't correctly done.

 

The Notice I received is headed " Notice served under Sections 76 (1) and 98 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974".

 

I've read through those sections and they both relate to the requirement for Default Notices to be issued.

 

Also, the notice gave me till the 10th January, at which time they would "terminate the overdraft arrangement". Is this the same as terminating a credit agreement, in the sense that if a CCA is terminated on the back of a defective DN, they have unlawfully recinded the agreement, but if an overdraft agreement has been terminated, what does that mean in real terms?

 

Hope someone can advise as I've had another letter from Triton this morning, replying to my Mr Grumpy fax the other day!

They've agreed to stop adding charges, but interest will continue to accrue, and that my offer of repayment was unacceptable due to the size of the balance outstanding (which wouldn't have been so big if they'd not stuck on nearly £250 of interest & charges!!!) - still, small mercies....!

 

Cheers

 

BL

[citizenB]

Thanks citizenb - exactly!

 

I still can't find a definitive answer as to whether an overdraft "needs" a Default Notice, and if the creditor is at fault if they don't issue one, or it isn't correctly done.

 

The Notice I received is headed " Notice served under Sections 76 (1) and 98 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974".

 

I've read through those sections and they both relate to the requirement for Default Notices to be issued.

 

Also, the notice gave me till the 10th January, at which time they would "terminate the overdraft arrangement". Is this the same as terminating a credit agreement, in the sense that if a CCA is terminated on the back of a defective DN, they have unlawfully recinded the agreement, but if an overdraft agreement has been terminated, what does that mean in real terms?

 

Hope someone can advise as I've had another letter from Triton this morning, replying to my Mr Grumpy fax the other day!

They've agreed to stop adding charges, but interest will continue to accrue, and that my offer of repayment was unacceptable due to the size of the balance outstanding (which wouldn't have been so big if they'd not stuck on nearly £250 of interest & charges!!!) - still, small mercies....!

 

Cheers

 

BL

 

 

Hi BL, if the regulations say there is a need for a Default notice then that is good news.

 

TBH, I am not really very up on overdraft situations. However, I believe you do get the same protection under the CCA1974.

 

I would think that yes, if they have stated a time by which they require the o/d to be repaid but not actually allowed that time by not factoring in the bank holiday and weekends as per regulations then it would be the same situation as for a credit agreement.

 

You may want to do more research or wait for more experienced CAGers to confirm though.

[bradfordlad]

yes, I'll string them along for as long as I need to whilst making enquiries! Cheers for everything as usual CB

[bradfordlad]

Could anyone confirm the following?

 

From my research, it appears that a bank account/overdraft is exempt from certain CCA1974 requirements (hence no point sending a CCA request). This is because all the bank has to do when an overdraft is agreed is to issue a letter stating the amount & interest rate of the overdraft facility when it is set up.

 

I received the Special Delivery envelope last week following my SAR on the Natwest, and there was no letter (nor do I remember receiving one) detailing my overdraft.

 

SO - does anyone know where I stand if the only document they are SUPPOSED to issue on agreement was not sent? (Assuming the SAR included EVERYTHING of course!)

 

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but there doesn't seem to be many "experts" on bank accounts/overdrafts on the CAG forum, so if anyone knows someone who is on the ball, could you send them over this way for a read through my thread?

 

Thanks everyone as always....

 

BL

[bradfordlad]

Another update - Today I received a lovely yellow postcard from ALLIED INTERNATIONAL CREDIT (UK) LTD.

 

Done my research on CAG, and they seem like a nice bunch (not!).

 

It refers to the outstanding balance, and their clients name as Natwest Bank Plc, and that further to the final demand, full payment is now due immediately.

 

This is the first I've heard of them, NW didn't tell me they were going to pass it on to a DCA, so I have no knowledge of this firm at all. Do I write to them asking who the hell they are, or do I ignore it altogether?

 

Not sure if I've updated this particualr thread, but our circumstances have changed now, and I will only be able to offer a minimal payment, possibly even only £1 or £2 a month now - so I expect Court Action to commence soon.

 

While writing, could anyone have a look at my question above regarding the requirements for an Overdraft agreement? I'm tempted to write to Natwest asking for copies of the correspondence supposedly provided to me telling me about the T & C's, limit & interest rate of the overdraft facility?

 

Cheers as always,

 

BL

[citizenB]

Another update - Today I received a lovely yellow postcard from ALLIED INTERNATIONAL CREDIT (UK) LTD.

 

Done my research on CAG, and they seem like a nice bunch (not!).

 

It refers to the outstanding balance, and their clients name as Natwest Bank Plc, and that further to the final demand, full payment is now due immediately.

 

This is the first I've heard of them, NW didn't tell me they were going to pass it on to a DCA, so I have no knowledge of this firm at all. Do I write to them asking who the hell they are, or do I ignore it altogether?

 

Not sure if I've updated this particualr thread, but our circumstances have changed now, and I will only be able to offer a minimal payment, possibly even only £1 or £2 a month now - so I expect Court Action to commence soon.

 

While writing, could anyone have a look at my question above regarding the requirements for an Overdraft agreement? I'm tempted to write to Natwest asking for copies of the correspondence supposedly provided to me telling me about the T & C's, limit & interest rate of the overdraft facility?

 

Cheers as always,

 

BL

 

 

If you believe you have not been provided all the information. Then yes, write to them saying so. If you know what is missing.. ie the letter/contract then ask them for a copy of it.

 

As for Allied International. Just write back advising them there is a dispute with the original lender and as such you are surprised this has been passed to them. That for them to continue to pursue whilst there is a valid dispute with the oriignal creditor is in clear breach of OFT Guidelines.

 

Suggest they return the account to the original lender for resolution of your dispute.

 

You should head up your letter that you acknowledge no debt to their company.

 

BTW, Do Allied say they have been assigned the account (ie purchased it) or do they refer to "their client" ? I suspect they are just the heavy mob section of NatWest.

 

There is no requirement for NW to let you know that they have passed the account on to a DCA. It is more threatening when a DCA descends on you without warning. If however, they have sold the account on, then someone should have sent you a Notice of Assignment.

 

HTH

Edited March 16, 2010 by citizenB

[bradfordlad]

Hi citizenb, sorry for the delay in replying - I've been trying to earn some cash!!

 

No, Allied do refer to NW as their client - I agree about them being the heavy mob!

 

What I'm still unsure about on this case is:

 

1) Is a "default notice" relating to a bank overdraft subject to the same requirements as a DN for a card or loan agreement? i.e. 14 clear days after service etc....

 

and, 2) From what I can gather, there is no CCA requirement for an overdraft, but the bank should provide you with written details such as limit, interest rate applicable etc. Now I haven't had anything like that, and there was no such letter in the pack received as a result of my SAR.

 

Have I got anything to throw back at them?

 

Cheers all

[bradfordlad]

Can anyone contact andyorch for me? He really seems to know his stuff on banks & overdrafts, and I'd really value his opinions on my case - but he doesn't accept PM's so not sure what to do now!!

 

Thanks

[AndyOrch]

Subbing to your thread Bradford

 

Regards

 

Andy

[bradfordlad]

Hi Andy, thanks for popping in!

 

I wanted to ask you something...

 

this is the way I understand things - an overdraft is not subject to the same requirements of the CCA1974 as a loan or credit card, in the sense that there is no "CCA" as we'd know it.

 

However, when the bank sends a Default Notice / Enforcement notice, they quote at the top that this being sent as per the Consumer Credit Act (with a couple of sections quoted - can't remember which). Incidentally, what is the difference between a Default Notice and an Enforcement notice?

 

Now, if you look at those sections of the CCA1974, they all refer to the requirement on the lender to send Default Notices, and that they should be set out properly (including the need for 14 clear days).

 

I'd like to know if anyone has successfully challenged a bank on the basis of a defective default notice?

 

Secondly, am I right in thinking that although there is no requirement for a bank to have a "CCA", they do have to provide written confirmation at the time the overdraft is agreed, covering the T & C's, interest rate and the overdraft limit.

 

The reasons for asking these questions is that :

 

1. the Enforcement notice I received did not give me the clear 14 days as I believe it should have, and;

 

2. I do not recall any letter telling me that rate & limit that was applied to my account. In fact, I was a member of staff at the time, and the other staff member just said "ooh, it's given you a good limit of £750" - that was it! Importantly, I did a SAR to Natwest to see what there was on my file, and although it included the print out of my details from the Natwest customer system showing applicable rates and limit, there was no letter spelling out what my limit was or applicable rates.

 

I may be grasping at straws, but if I get one, it could be the straw that breaks the camels back!!

 

So to clarify my questions:

 

1. What is the difference between a Default Notice & an Enforcement Notice?

 

2. Can a DN/EN relating to an overdraft be defective, sufficient to illegally rescind the agreement?

 

3. Are the banks DEFINITELY obliged to give you written details of the rate, limit etc - and what happens if they don't?

 

I hope you can help Andy, I've been searching the forum for months looking for the answers to these questions!!!!

 

No pressure mate......

 

Cheers, BL

[AndyOrch]

Hi Andy, thanks for popping in!

 

I wanted to ask you something...

 

this is the way I understand things - an overdraft is not subject to the same requirements of the CCA1974 as a loan or credit card, in the sense that there is no "CCA" as we'd know it.

 

However, when the bank sends a Default Notice / Enforcement notice, they quote at the top that this being sent as per the Consumer Credit Act (with a couple of sections quoted - can't remember which). Incidentally, what is the difference between a Default Notice and an Enforcement notice? Not sure what you mean by enforcement Notice normally Enforcements Notices are issued by Councils re property or land nothing to do with Defaults on debt

 

Now, if you look at those sections of the CCA1974, they all refer to the requirement on the lender to send Default Notices, and that they should be set out properly (including the need for 14 clear days).

 

I'd like to know if anyone has successfully challenged a bank on the basis of a defective default notice? Lots have a read of the success cases here on Cag

 

Secondly, am I right in thinking that although there is no requirement for a bank to have a "CCA", they do have to provide written confirmation at the time the overdraft is agreed, covering the T & C's, interest rate and the overdraft limit.Theoretically yes in practice hardly ever

 

The reasons for asking these questions is that :

 

1. the Enforcement notice :? DN? I received did not give me the clear 14 days as I believe it should have, and;

 

2. I do not recall any letter telling me that rate & limit that was applied to my account. In fact, I was a member of staff at the time, and the other staff member just said "ooh, it's given you a good limit of £750" - that was it! Importantly, I did a SAR to Natwest to see what there was on my file, and although it included the print out of my details from the Natwest customer system showing applicable rates and limit, there was no letter spelling out what my limit was or applicable rates. Overdrafts are running credit and are offered to customers on application that maintain their account well based on monthly income and out goings, all rates are shown on your monthly statement and if changed via their information sheet supplied with your statement surmising we are talking Advantage Gold

I may be grasping at straws, but if I get one, it could be the straw that breaks the camels back!! Wouldn't worry to be honest have a look around here on Cag and find me a case were NW have issued litigation based on a overdraft only ie no loan also.You will struggle!!!!

So to clarify my questions:

 

1. What is the difference between a Default Notice & an Enforcement Notice? See above

 

2. Can a DN/EN relating to an overdraft be defective, sufficient to illegally rescind the agreement? DNs are not issued on Overdrafts Recall note and Termination are

 

3. Are the banks DEFINITELY obliged to give you written details of the rate, limit etc - and what happens if they don't? Nothing because as said above very rare litigation is commenced on overdrafts.Let all the Muppet's keep sending their threatograms and phone calls and ignore.Do nothing until and if a Summons is issued, which i very much doubt!!!!

 

I hope you can help Andy, I've been searching the forum for months looking for the answers to these questions!!!!

 

No pressure mate......

 

Cheers, BL

 

If you have a read here Bradford, at the expense of not repeating myself,I have covered ODs in detail for another poster

 

Halifax Current Account- Is this a defective Default Notice? Help please!

 

 

Regards

 

 

Andy;)