Sacked after disciplinary hearing

[Mattyg2004]

I'm writing on behalf of a friend

 

On xmas eve he recieved a letter from his HR department notifying of a Disciplinary hearing. This was set for Today (29/12/09 The next working day)

 

At the meeting was my friend and the meeting was chaired by his manager and a HR rep.

 

My friends manager is not neutral as he was the complainent and was responsible for the meeting.

 

At the meeting my friend was told that he was to be disciplined over Punctuality however the shift start time had been extended by the previous manager due to out of area travelling time.

 

My friend had a final written warning over 12 months ago for a unrelated issue

 

At this meeting my friend was given a first written warning for Time keeping but as he had a final warning he was dismissed even though the time keeping had been authorised by previous manager.

 

The speed with which this was done looks fishy and it looks like the manager has organised the dismissal.

 

 

1st witten warning was over 3 years ago

2nd was over 12 months ago and was due to audit and procedure(he had just taken over a new site and was finding his feet)

 

My friend had legitimate answers to pretty much all points made at the meeting such as collecting stock from other depots on the way in to work.

 

 

Any Ideas or suggestions.

 

Thanks in advance

[Joggler]

You should contact acas, they will be able to help you, my gut instinct is that the sacking was unfair and as this was an unreklated incident to the previous one, I think you have a case.

[Ell-enn]

He should most certainly appeal. What does the company disciplinary policy say about how long final written warnings should stay on employees files? In most cases it is 12 months and then it must be removed from the file so it cannot be taken into consideration in any new disciplinary action after the 12 months.

[Mattyg2004]

He should most certainly appeal. What does the company disciplinary policy say about how long final written warnings should stay on employees files? In most cases it is 12 months and then it must be removed from the file so it cannot be taken into consideration in any new disciplinary action after the 12 months.

 

We have just read the companie Disciplinary policy.

 

Its states that a written warning will stay on file for 6 months and a final will be on for 12 months.

 

His 1st written warning was 3 yrs ago and his final was over 12 months ago.

 

Does that mean his first was spent so his final shouldnt have been a final but instead another first. which then IF spent would mean this latest one would be either his 2nd/final or if spent it would be another 1st written warning.

 

EDIT: There was an adjournment but that was just for the manager to phone the previous manger to confirm that the arrangemnt had been made. This was confirmed but didnt make any differance.

 

Another point was by the time my friend got back to his depot to collect his things replacement staff were already there

[Ell-enn]

OK, he should get his appeal letter in asap giving the grounds as unfair dismissal. He can then prepare his case once he knows the date of the appeal hearing. If he needs help with the letter let me know.

[cynic09]

This should be appealed on the grounds that the manager failed to follow company rules.

One does not appeal a disc hearing outcome on grounds of unfair dismissal

All previous warnings are spent and thefore should not be taken into account. The manager failed to follow that part of his companies procedure, therfore the dismissal is likely to result in a complaint to the ET for unfair dismissal. Until the companies procedure is followed regarding appeal there are no grounds for unfair dismissal as a higher manager can reverse the original decision

However little ego maniacs tend to get appeals rubber stamped. Should make for a very short employment tribunal hearing

Edited December 29, 2009 by cynic09

[elpulpo]

Sounds very fishy. I second what everyone's said, the disciplinaries are spent.

What size is this business?

[Mattyg2004]

Sounds very fishy. I second what everyone's said, the disciplinaries are spent.

What size is this business?

 

Very

Its a national tyre fitting company

 

He loves his job started 8 yrs ago and worked his way up to a depot manager and go to guy.

 

He gets moved around to differant depots that are failing and turns them around.

His old area manager was trying to get him back under his area but he was sticking with the project he had at the time. All the staff are amazed and other depot mangers are shocked.

 

He depot is the only one to make/beat budget every month for the last 12 months. He has turned around all his previous depots.

 

This new area manger has only been with the company 3 months'ish and has come from another trade.

[elpulpo]

Has he recieeved written notification of his dismissal yet?

Once he does, he needs to put in a letter requesting an appeal.

It amazes me how relatively large companies with HR depts can get it so badly wrong.

Particularly so when an HR exec was present at the meeting - you'd think they would have the authority to step in and stop the manager behaving in such a way.

[Mattyg2004]

Has he recieeved written notification of his dismissal yet?

Once he does, he needs to put in a letter requesting an appeal.

It amazes me how relatively large companies with HR depts can get it so badly wrong.

Particularly so when an HR exec was present at the meeting - you'd think they would have the authority to step in and stop the manager behaving in such a way.

 

You'd think so wouldnt you:-o

 

The hearing was this morning so he doesnt have it in writting yet.

 

He's getting notice pay na holiday pay so at least its not gross misconduct.

 

He is a top performer in the company and this came as a big shock through the depots that know him.

 

We are wondering now if its this new area manager flexing his muscles to the effect of "i can sack him i can sack any of you" type of thing.

[cirian75]

We are wondering now if its this new area manager flexing his muscles to the effect of "i can sack him i can sack any of you" type of thing.

 

 

Sounds very possible

[Ell-enn]

Unfortunately if he has not followed procedure and your friend has been unfairly dismissed, all the new manager will be flexing is his own stupidity !

[cynic09]

sounds exactly like a little ego out for a walk.

Far too many of them around, waste of good suits mostly

[CapabilityBrown]

I disagree ... with these sorts it tends to be a waste of a bad suit ... they never quite know the difference

[Mattyg2004]

Update:

 

He has had his outcome letter today.

 

He has been sacked for misconduct namely poor timekeeping.

 

He was given a written warning but as he had a final on file.(which we are struggling to get a date on) He was dismissed.

 

He has NOT had a verbal warning for poor timekeeping his manger has spoken to him about his timekeeping but nothing official.

 

 

Does this help his case any.

 

 

In our appeal letter do we draft it like court bundle/witness statement or do we just list the basics.

Ie I want to appeal the decision.

 

Company policy is to work with the employee to sort out any problems

 

There are breaches of the policy but not sure how serious they are.

 

We also think this may have been rushed through as his final written warning may have still been live. is there a grace period could a final warning be taken into consideration the day before its due to be removed

[cirian75]

I think its time he goes and see's a proper employment law solicitor face to face.

[dx_]

If your friend says he only received an unofficial verbal warning from his previous manager and that the timings had been agreed, it may be worth contacting the previous manager to find out if he'll be willing to testify to the unofficial warning and also your friends resumption time. Note that this will be easier to achieve if the previous manager is no longer with the company as most employees are reluctant to get involved in matters like this.

Edited January 11, 2010 by dx_

[cynic09]

You only have to draft your letter of appeal in minimal detail. Have a look at the ACAS guidelines.

Might be worth asking the employer to produce copies of these previous warnings tho and also the timekeeping records that indicate this awful timekeeping. Not unknown for the new guy to go off on one because you turn up late on his first day, even if it happens to be the first time your late in ten years.

Disc hearings are meant to be factual, not opinions

[cynic09]

Another point worth noting, his letter on xmas eve should contain some detail of matters to be discussed and also confirm that it's a disciplinary hearing and that your friend is entitled to be accompanied.

Procedural but can make life difficult for little egos who ambush employees

[Mattyg2004]

You only have to draft your letter of appeal in minimal detail. Have a look at the ACAS guidelines.

Might be worth asking the employer to produce copies of these previous warnings tho and also the timekeeping records that indicate this awful timekeeping. Not unknown for the new guy to go off on one because you turn up late on his first day, even if it happens to be the first time your late in ten years.

Disc hearings are meant to be factual, not opinions

 

 

Thanks unfortunatly its not the first time he's been late

 

Its happened a few times although nothing has been done officially.

 

It says in the transcript of the hearing that the area manager feels he has exhausted all avenues when he clearly hasnt. There were more options open to him but he chose not to take those route.

[cirian75]

update ?

[orfoster]

Did his letter indicate the potential outcome of the hearing could be gross-misconduct?

 

I would also request FULL disclosure of his personnel file, if they refuse you can submit a SAR under the Data Protection Act. Just so you can be sure regarding this previous final warning (dates) etc.

 

I would call ACAS for advice, visit the CAB and potentially talk to a solicitor about this but only after speaking to the others first.

[Mattyg2004]

Sorry dont ya just hate it when people dont update threads:D

 

He had his appeal hearing on monday, and at the same time his ex manager was in the same building doing 3 other hearings (i see a pattern emerging)

 

my Friend was pretty happy after the meeting with the feeling between himself and another manager who went with him that it was very positive.

 

especially when the director put a stop to the other hearings and was shocked that ALL the other managers in the area are scared for their jobs.

 

the director admitted he would have used personal improvement plans to sort the situation, because they work.

 

 

A letter with the outcome is on its way. Fingers crossed

[cirian75]

I hopes full reinstatement for your mate.

 

and a P45 for the manager on a gross abuse of power trip.

[cynic09]

Full reinstatement PLUS lost earnings I'd suggest!

If theres a decent salary attached to the area manager gig, I could be interested:p