What is the alternative?

[ploddertom]

There have been many posts bemoaning the role Bailiffs and HCEOs play in todays society. There have been allegations of fraud, theft and assault to name but a few. The old fashioned bailiff is centuries old and it would appear that one of the reasons that it has not been brought fully up to date is the resistance to change by our political masters and the judiciary.

 

We all appear to agree that change needs to be brought about - even those who sit on the other side of the fence - but how to do it. It has been suggested we write to our MP's but bearing in mind a good proportion will be leaving office in the next 6 months, is it really worthwhile. Write to the MOJ - but it gets swallowed up in the machine.

 

Other countries seem to go about this in different ways and indeed even one of our own has a different system. I believe we need to write not just about the injustices that have been committed in the name of the law but also some sensible proposals for an alternative.

 

PT

[sutton6344]

What is wrong with the Police collecting unpaid fines/parking tickets etc at least the vetting process of the Police would eliminate the thugs and bullies and fraudsters (well certainly more than is the case at the moment).

 

Wasn't this how it used to operate?

[twonames]

What is wrong with the Police collecting unpaid fines/parking tickets etc at least the vetting process of the Police would eliminate the thugs and bullies and fraudsters (well certainly more than is the case at the moment).

 

Wasn't this how it used to operate?

 

The burden of the work load is taken away by using private bailiffs and it must save the tax payers millions of pounds.

[twonames]

you could always bring back debtor prisons

[Nintendo Pü]

Debtors prison still exist in the UK, but I think you are thinking of the kind used in middle eastern nations.

 

In the UK its possible to be committed to prison for debt for non payment of council tax and child support. This is not the same as a prison sentence for convicted prisoners.

 

The Middle Eastern variant is prison for failing to repay money that the debtor borrows. Sharia law expressly prohibits lending for gain - charging interest or fees for lending money - so its impossible to be imprisoned for money that is interest or charges.

 

The majority of the UK bailiff industry is collecting statutory debts, this is not money a debtor has borrowed and failed to repay, but a burden that is placed on him by statute regardless of his means.

 

To roll debtors prison out nationwide for non payment of consumer debt would be too expensive.

[Nintendo Pü]

What is wrong with the Police collecting unpaid fines/parking tickets etc

 

Cost.

 

It would be akin to employing surgeons to do the work of a nurse.

[sutton6344]

In reality what they are doing now is getting the hospital porter to do the job of a surgeon and then wonder why a mess is made.

[twonames]

Debtors prison still exist in the UK, but I think you are thinking of the kind used in middle eastern nations.

 

In the UK its possible to be committed to prison for debt for non payment of council tax and child support. This is not the same as a prison sentence for convicted prisoners.

 

The Middle Eastern variant is prison for failing to repay money that the debtor borrows. Sharia law expressly prohibits lending for gain - charging interest or fees for lending money - so its impossible to be imprisoned for money that is interest or charges.

 

The majority of the UK bailiff industry is collecting statutory debts, this is not money a debtor has borrowed and failed to repay, but a burden that is placed on him by statute regardless of his means.

 

To roll debtors prison out nationwide for non payment of consumer debt would be too expensive.

 

I was refering to the debtor prisons which this country had back in the 19th century, before the Before the Bankruptcy Act of 1869

[Nintendo Pü]

To be honest, it would be too expensive and would be open to abuse. the 1869 Act was before social housing was introduced and the homeless would use debtors prison it to get themselves fast-tracked into housing and onto the property ladder.

[twonames]

you could always send various strongly worded coloured letters with the wording getting increasingly larger and larger.

 

If people dont pay you could send a " letter of disapointment"

[twonames]

To be honest, it would be too expensive and would be open to abuse. the 1869 Act was before social housing was introduced and the homeless would use debtors prison it to get themselves fast-tracked into housing and onto the property ladder.

 

Thats a good point.

[RaeUK]

Education and training would be a start. At the moment it is an industry that is largely operated and manned by thugs, touts and spivs. It desperately needs to take itself seriously and start considering itself as a profession. There needs to be an independant watchdog put in place to oversee them and ensure - at the very least - that the National Guidelines are adhered to. Offdebt would be as good a name as any. A series of nationally recognised diplomas should be put in place to encourage and ensure a high standard of work ethic and law interpretation.

And drop those silly 'I'm an intimidating bailiff with a big willy' type vehicles many of them seem to love.

I mentioned in my 'xmas message' that I believe bailiffs could play a positive role in helping the vulnerable. I would actually go one step further and suggest they could easily move from being the muggers of the less able to becoming a shining light in debt management and counselling - a miraculous transformation indeed!

As a matter of interest, is there any minimum educational requirements for Enforcement Agents? Is there a proper and recognised institute that can enhance the industry? [i'm thinking back when I was involved in materials management and was a member of the Chartered Institute of Purchase and Supply]. Judging by the knuckle draggers I've come across, I fear they have a long long way to go before they evolve...

Rae

[seanamarts]

'I'm an intimidating bailiff with a big willy' type vehicles many of them seem to love.

 

oh god!!!!!! that just made me curl up and laugh my wobbly bits off

we so need some light humor in here

[Nintendo Pü]

Education and training would be a start. At the moment it is an industry that is largely operated and manned by thugs, touts and spivs. It desperately needs to take itself seriously and start considering itself as a profession.

 

Someone a while ago commented the bailiffs companies are the ones training recruits to become professional shysters.

 

 

There needs to be an independant watchdog put in place to oversee them and ensure - at the very least - that the National Guidelines are adhered to. Offdebt would be as good a name as any.

 

The Ministry of Justice already does this role, albeit rather inefectively, its the legislation that needs work. The national guidelines is not legislation and there is no statutory obligation for bailiffs to comply with them. They can be used to decide compensation awards by the Local Government Ombudsman and the Small Claims Track.

 

 

A series of nationally recognised diplomas should be put in place to encourage and ensure a high standard of work ethic and law interpretation.

 

Looking at the English grammar and arithmetic skills of bailiffs whose receipts we see posted on this forum, there does not appear to be any prerequisites or academic qualification requirement to become a bailiff.

 

And drop those silly 'I'm an intimidating bailiff with a big willy' type vehicles many of them seem to love.

I mentioned in my 'xmas message' that I believe bailiffs could play a positive role in helping the vulnerable. I would actually go one step further and suggest they could easily move from being the muggers of the less able to becoming a shining light in debt management and counselling - a miraculous transformation indeed!

As a matter of interest, is there any minimum educational requirements for Enforcement Agents?

 

None at the moment. only requirement is to have an insurance policy to protect public money in his charge - a certificate.

 

Is there a proper and recognised institute that can enhance the industry? [i'm thinking back when I was involved in materials management and was a member of the Chartered Institute of Purchase and Supply].

 

Plenty of them, ACEA and Credit Services Association to name a few, but these are private Ltd companies who like to think they are industry regulators. The OFT even like to use them to pass complainants from pillar to post because of their skills in playing out lip service.

 

Judging by the knuckle draggers I've come across, I fear they have a long long way to go before they evolve...

Rae

[twonames]

Education and training would be a start. At the moment it is an industry that is largely operated and manned by thugs, touts and spivs. It desperately needs to take itself seriously and start considering itself as a profession. There needs to be an independant watchdog put in place to oversee them and ensure - at the very least - that the National Guidelines are adhered to. Offdebt would be as good a name as any. A series of nationally recognised diplomas should be put in place to encourage and ensure a high standard of work ethic and law interpretation.

And drop those silly 'I'm an intimidating bailiff with a big willy' type vehicles many of them seem to love.

I mentioned in my 'xmas message' that I believe bailiffs could play a positive role in helping the vulnerable. I would actually go one step further and suggest they could easily move from being the muggers of the less able to becoming a shining light in debt management and counselling - a miraculous transformation indeed!

As a matter of interest, is there any minimum educational requirements for Enforcement Agents? Is there a proper and recognised institute that can enhance the industry? [i'm thinking back when I was involved in materials management and was a member of the Chartered Institute of Purchase and Supply]. Judging by the knuckle draggers I've come across, I fear they have a long long way to go before they evolve...

Rae

 

Some of the larger companies are incorporating City and Guilds into their training, and I beleive Sherforce are doing some sort of diploma in debt management for their hceo's

[RaeUK]

Seanamarts, thankyou, you're right sometimes we do need a little humour here! Over the years I've had so many turn up in their macho wagons. I forget the name, ford 4x4's pickup style favoured by builders with oversized egos. Should be renamed Ford BadBoi or somesuch...

Nintendo, thanks again. I just wish the Guidelines were taken seriously. As you know from my constant harping on about them! Maybe I should put my energies into campaigning for them to become legislation...?

Twonames, thankyou. That was interesting to read. All I know about Sherforce, I'm afraid, is what I've read here. But credit where credit is due if they are starting to try and be professional.

Whilst, at the moment, there may be no winners, I'd be interested in an annual CAG award for ethical Enforcement Officers... just a thought.

Rae.

[crockie]

Interesting thread and I will be checking in to see what alternatives people can come up with.

 

There needs to be far tighter controls on them as opposed to guidelines and they should be used AFTER the council or whoever has made serious attempts to collect the money owed.

 

In our current case we recd a notice of summons, then the liability order, nothing then for 6 months untill we recd a bailiff letter through the door. The council have made no real attempts to gain payment before sending in the heavies. The council have our address, email address and phone number. We had already offered to pay and our offers were refused.

 

A good few years ago now a bailiff knocked at my door about a CT debt from several years earlier that I knew nothing about, we hadnt lived at the property for several years etc. This chap was helpful and polite, we came to a payment arrangement which took into account our dire circumstances at that time, we paid the payments and the debt was paid with little to no stress.

 

A year later another bailiff called, totally different kettle of fish. Aggressive, nasty, intimidating. We were forced into an arrangement with HUGE payments that made us spiral into problems with payments to other people, we kept up with the payments but queried their massive charges when we had just a small amount of money left to pay. The conclusion to this was a horrific experience at our front door involving the police.

 

So my suggestion would be the same as many others, make Bailiffs accountable for their actions, educate them, provide them with the people skills that the large majority of them see to be missing.

 

In most public buildings, council offices, courts etc, there are notices everywhere telling you that abuse will not be tolerated and whilst I agree with that entirely, I then cannot understand why it is acceptable for these organisations to employ people to go out to Joe Public's homes to abuse them.

[Nintendo Pü]

A good few years ago now a bailiff knocked at my door about a CT debt from several years earlier that I knew nothing about, we hadnt lived at the property for several years etc. This chap was helpful and polite, we came to a payment arrangement which took into account our dire circumstances at that time, we paid the payments and the debt was paid with little to no stress.

 

A year later another bailiff called, totally different kettle of fish. Aggressive, nasty, intimidating. We were forced into an arrangement with HUGE payments that made us spiral into problems with payments to other people, we kept up with the payments but queried their massive charges when we had just a small amount of money left to pay. The conclusion to this was a horrific experience at our front door involving the police..

 

You could well be owed lots of money, especially if the tax is for a different address, you can recover all the bailiffs fees. If this took place within the last six years then contact the council and ask how much was owed according to the liability order, then subtract that from the amount you paid to the bailiffs, and that gives you the fees.

[crockie]

You could well be owed lots of money, especially if the tax is for a different address, you can recover all the bailiffs fees. If this took place within the last six years then contact the council and ask how much was owed according to the liability order, then subtract that from the amount you paid to the bailiffs, and that gives you the fees.

 

Thanks to this fantastic forum we have had some fees back from both the Bailiff companies concerned.

 

The first one admitted their mistake, apologised and paid up. The second one ignored our queries re the charges and sent the mega heavies in, complaint made and then some charges refunded.

 

My point is though that the first Bailiff was a nice enough chap, the company weren't totally unreasonable although they did add a few dodgy charges on, the debt was dealt with relatively easily.

 

The second Bailiff that called was from a different company and was for council tax at our new address. The attitude from them was disgusting right from the start, and without any doubt they were getting off on our fear and lack of knowledge (at the time). If they had used the same approach as the first lot then the whole experience would have been far less painful BUT they still would have got paid.

[tomtubby]

There have been many posts bemoaning the role Bailiffs and HCEOs play in todays society. There have been allegations of fraud, theft and assault to name but a few. The old fashioned bailiff is centuries old and it would appear that one of the reasons that it has not been brought fully up to date is the resistance to change by our political masters and the judiciary.

 

We all appear to agree that change needs to be brought about - even those who sit on the other side of the fence - but how to do it. It has been suggested we write to our MP's but bearing in mind a good proportion will be leaving office in the next 6 months, is it really worthwhile. Write to the MOJ - but it gets swallowed up in the machine.

 

Other countries seem to go about this in different ways and indeed even one of our own has a different system. I believe we need to write not just about the injustices that have been committed in the name of the law but also some sensible proposals for an alternative.

 

PT

 

 

 

There is very little point in writing to MP's in particular as we have an election around the corner.

 

In January the MOJ are releasing a Consultation Document to Stakeholders seeking their views on the future regulation on bailiffs under the TCE Bill.

 

I am not expecting tough regulation because this could impact on the collection rate by bailiffs of council tax, parking charges and fines etc.

 

Despite a fair amount of opposition, the new regulator is to be the SIA and a Consultation Document has recently been released to Stakeholders by the SIA seeking their views ( I am mid way through drafting a response ).

 

Our Government has little money and bailiffs as collectors of GOVERNMENT DEBTS are seen by HMCS and local authorities as VITAL .

 

The new regulations ( together with an increased fee scale) are due to come into effect in April 2012. However, if a new party is elected....this could change ( but will NOT be sooner) !!

Edited December 30, 2009 by tomtubby

[danboy381]

Village green - big set of old wooden stocks and rotten fruit?

 

 

sorry, but someone above wanted a bit of humour

[Nintendo Pü]

What needs to be understood however is that the government will not be seeking tough regulation because this could impact on the collection rate by bailiffs of council tax, parking charges and fines etc. This is a FACT.

 

Do you have a source for this fact?

 

Its been quietly punted around the legal profession for some time but as yet no government minister has gone on record saying they will not be tackling the problem of bailiff crime.

 

If you have your facts right, the government has conceeded that bailiff crime is to be tolerated. The first time in history since King John in 1215.

[tomtubby]

Do you have a source for this fact?

 

Its been quietly punted around the legal profession for some time but as yet no government minister has gone on record saying they will not be tackling the problem of bailiff crime.

 

If you have your facts right, the government has conceeded that bailiff crime is to be tolerated. The first time in history since King John in 1215.

 

Have sent you a PM.

[Nintendo Pü]

Cant it be shared with the forum?

[spamheed]

I agree that the powers that be will not want to shake things up too vigorously, look at how they copped out with the banks and even the outrageous expenses claims, in any other walk of life heads would roll and people would end up in court.

 

Hopefully WHEN the SIA take over their registration they will then have the same popularist knee jerk reaction they had when they took over the registration of the doormen and security companies.

 

This being the case any complaint against the bailiff will result in the suspension of the bailiffs registration until the complaint has been investigated. As I keep being told, there are rules that these "people" are supposed to follow, if they follow them, then they have little to be concerned over

 

At the very least it will get some of the more Aggressive chimps off the streets.

 

My personal preference is Councils and courts employing their own court appointed officials to collect debts, with clear rules and a national scale of charges (not guidelines) being laid down for all to see. any abuse of this should result in the individuakl chimp and the company they work for being penalised