Post Office/Bank of Ireland. credit card - CCJ & Restriction sold to cabot - reduced settlement?

[bradfordlad]

Ayr, that was my other thought Andy. Taken them a while though hasn't it?! Still not heard anything, but perhaps they're lining up a nice christmas present for us!

[AndyOrch]

Did you do the N245?

 

Andy

[bradfordlad]

Did you do the N245?

 

Andy

 

Hi mate, no not yet. as per post 246, I wrote to them offering a monthly payment, and they referred to to their client. Not heard anything since, other than a letter a few weeks ago saying "we're still waiting for instructions from our client". I guess I'm sitting in a diary somewhere. I didn't want to contact the court for a redetermination until I knew whether they'd accepted my offer or not. Let sleeping dogs lie and all that!

[AndyOrch]

Well no in this matter best not to let sleeping dogs lie.The N245 offers protection once in place and makes it harder for them to execute an CO.

You should have done the redetermination within 14 days of the judgment date on a forthwith having missed that your only other option was the N245 to set up an installment order with the Courts backing.By doing nothing you are playing into the claimants hands and they are running the show.A forthwith Judgment was passed in May 2011 and not a penny or an offer of payment as been forth coming.The longer the gap the easier the CO just the way the Claimants like it.

 

Andy

[bradfordlad]

 

Thank you for such a clear concise summary Andy - I hadn't quite seen it like that previously, but you are absolutely right - get in there before they do.

 

If I can get a redetermination by the court, would that mean they can't get a CO as long as I keep payments up to date?

 

I'm also considering a formal DMP with CCCS or Payplan, so it could tie in together quite nicely. Cheers Andy BL

[bradfordlad]

Andy, please don your "told you so" hat now please!

 

ICO received, and hearing for CO set for December

 

Didn't send the N245 form off, quite simply because I've finally got a full time job (!), but the string of interviews, preparation and then the residential induction courses I've been on, meant I took my eye off the ball. Annoyingly, I'd got the N245 ready to post earlier this week, but couldn't get to a post office before today, but lo & behold they beat me to it!!

 

Anyway, here's the thing. The Mrs (who's account it is) has an issue with work, and we don't think they'd allow her the time off. I'd happily attend, so is it worth asking court if I can?

 

Assuming she/we can't go, will the CO be a given? And if that's the case, what happens then?

 

I believe that as I jointly own our property I am allowed to go anyway?

 

Just to recap:

 

A forthwith CCJ was granted in January, following which I wrote to BoI to offer them £5 a month. The solicitors wrote back asking to clarify certain things in my Statement of Affairs, to which I replied.

 

I didn't hear anything then until yesterday, about the ICO.

 

Amazingly, I actually wrote to the sol's yesterday too - increasing my offer to £15 a month now that I've got a job. Sod's law and all that.....

 

So - what to do now? Should I write to court asking i) if I can attend on her behalf, and ii) pointing out that I offered £5 with no response, and have increased the offer to £15 - iiii) Point out that the house is in negative equity to the tune of approx £25,000 so a Charging Order would be pointless (or words to that effect!) iv) a Charging Order would unfairly penalise MY creditors, and her other creditors v) mention we have 2 kids (8y & 2y)

 

Look forward to your comments/thoughts......

 

BL

[AndyOrch]

In all honesty BL it would have made little difference anyway as most creditors now expect to CO to secure their debts and most DJs go along with it.

Very little you can do to stop the FCO but is the property in joint names ? If so you can object to your half being included thus they will only get a restriction order on your wifes share 50%.Not the same as a full blown Charging Order and lacks any teeth.

 

Andy

[bradfordlad]

Hi mate,

 

I spoke to a lady at National Debtline this morning, and she said pretty much the same thing.

 

Am I ok to object in writing, or do I have to attend? Might be difficult getting time off, being so new into the job.

 

Thanks for all your advice Andy BL

[AndyOrch]

It would advise one of you to attend otherwise your objections may be disregarded and you need to make sure they only get a restriction and not a CO.

 

Andy

[bradfordlad]

Hi Andy, Just in the last stages of putting together my reasons for objecting against a full CO, but appreciate a Restriction is now almost a given.

 

I will be attending but we dealers last week that the court date is into the school holidays so Mrs won't be able to go as she'll have the kids, and we have no-one to look after them.

 

Will it be ok if there's only me there? The trains for my objections will be the same as hers anyway.

 

Also, do I need to let the court have a copy of my objections in advance? Seems only polite...

 

Cheers, BL

[AndyOrch]

I would email a copy over to their Sols in advance and take an extra copy with you for the DJ.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[bradfordlad]

 

Hi Andy,

 

still working on the "objection" letter - is it worth mentioning that following the forthwith judgement in January, we wrote to them offering £5 a month, and although they acknowledged our letter, they never bothered with a reply (favourable or otherwise)?

 

May not make a difference, but I want it on record that we offered a monthly payment, but they ignored our offer and went straight for a CO.

 

I accept that a Restriction is almost inevitable, but I'd just like to remind the DJ at the hearing that we have tried to play ball.

 

The Mrs definitely can't attend, so I'll be going as the co-owner of the property to make known my objections to a CO.

 

Am I able to "act" for my wife, or is a DJ likely to say I'm there only as co-owner and not able to discuss the case in detail?

 

If so, would it help if I took along a letter of authority from my wife, and also if she were to write to the court to say she can't attend but would like me to represent her at the hearing?

 

I'm definitely going though - and quite looking forward to it!!

 

Cheers

 

BL

[AndyOrch]

Its half your property so yes you can and should be there.The DJ would probably not discuss the claim though.

Re your offer yes its an important point and you should supply copies of the offer and their failure to respond.(to facilitate and justify their CO application)

and of course turn an unsecured into a secured (legally).

 

Regards

 

Andy

[bradfordlad]

Thanks mate, here is my first draft at the letter from my Wife to the Claimant and the Court. Mine will be in a similar vein....

 

Defence

1. I xxxxxx of xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx am the defendant in this action and make the following statement as my defence to the application for a charging order made by the Bank of Ireland.

 

2. On the xx JANUARY 2011 a County Court Judgement was awarded against me in favour of the Bank of Ireland. The Judgement was a “Forthwith” order.

 

 

3. I was unable to repay the amount due in one payment, and so I contacted the Claimant with an offer to repay the debt at a realistically affordable payment of £5 a month, along with a detailed breakdown of my income and expenditure.

 

4. I received an acknowledgement of this offer, which queried the figures with the budget planner, to which I replied on 29th March with clarification as requested.

 

5. I heard nothing further from the Claimant or their solicitor until 4th November – asking me for my proposals to repay the debt and threatening me with a Charging Order, which in fact they had already applied for. I believe my original offer was ignored on purpose so the Claimant could take this action and effectively turn an unsecured debt into a secured debt.

 

6. I replied to the above letter stating I had already made an offer of payment which had been ignored, but due to a change in circumstances I was now able to offer £15 a month.

 

7. The property is jointly owned with my Husband, and he would be prejudiced if a Charging Order were to be applied to his property for a debt which he does not owe and is not responsible for.

 

8. The property has been our family home since 2003.

 

9 As a result of additional borrowing and reducing house prices, the property is currently in “negative equity” and is likely to be so for some time to come. It is therefore highly unlikely that we will be selling the property in the foreseeable future, and even if we were to sell the Claimant would be unlikely to receive payment.

 

10. I am currently making payments to other creditors on a pro-rata basis, and a Charging Order would unduly prejudice those creditors.

 

11. I have now received acknowledgement from the Claimant that my offer of £15 a month is acceptable to them for payment of the debt, and payments have now commenced.

 

 

I'm note sure how to finish this letter off, so would be grateful for your opinion & suggestion. Should I mention our kids at 8 & 2 or is that labouring the point a bit - if so, how should I get it into the letter?!

 

Cheers

 

BL

[AndyOrch]

There would be no chance of ever forced sale as this is a restriction so therefore the children don't need to referenced.You need to force the point how they suddenly accepted your offer after their ICO application.

 

Heres Cymru,s defence that she successfully used to stop the FCO.

 

In The xxxx County Court

Claim Number: xxxxx

Applicant: xxxxxxxx

Defendant: xxxxx

 

 

Defence

1. I xxxx of 2 xxxx am the defendant in this action and make the following statement as my

defence to the application for a charging order made by xxxx.

2. On 2010 a County Court Judgment was awarded against me in favor of xxxx.

Unfortunately I was unable to afford legal representation and could not afford to appeal this

decision. I am waiting for the relevant paperwork from the original creditor to enable a claim

for unlawful Payment Protection Insurance and for unlawful charges.

3. When District Judge xx gave his judgment he stated that as I was not in a position to pay

the full amount, if I could come to an arrangement to repay the sum with xxxx within 21 days

then no judgment would be entered against me. (Exhibit xx1)

4. On xxxx I spoke to xxxx a litigator from xxxx Solicitors, who were acting on behalf of , who

agreed a repayment plan of £x0 and suggested that the first repayment was made after

Christmas in January 2011.

5. I received a letter which was incorrectly dated (xx January 2010, instead of December

2010) from xxxx Solicitors giving me the relevant banking details to enable me to set up a

standing order (Exhibit xx2).

6. I set up a standing order mandate for a payment of £x0 to be paid on xxxx and the xxth of

every subsequent month. I have made all these payments and have no intention of

defaulting on these payments. (Exhibit xx3)

7. I subsequently discovered that this was only an informal arrangement and would offer me

no legal protection. On 2011 I submitted a N245 Application for Variation of an Order with

the relevant payment requesting an instalment order.

8. On xx 2011 an installment order was made stating that the first payment was to be made

by xx 2011. As stated in point 6, payments of £x0 have been made by standing order each

month since xxxx.

9. According to 'Section 86(1) The County Courts Act 1984:

‘Where the court has made an order for payment of any sum of money by installments,

execution on the order shall not be issued until after default in payment of some installment

according to the order.’

10. This point was further considered in the case of Mercantile Credit V Ellis in The Court of

Appeal 1987, where it was found that the wording of the Charging Orders Act states quite

clearly that no further action could be taken without a default in payment.

 

‘For my part, I would hold that where the circumstances established that an order for

payment by installments has been made and has been observed, then in any event it would

be impossible to attack an exercise of discretion where that discretion was exercised in

favor of a debtor (now a judgment debtor) faithfully discharging the terms of the judgment

order itself.

So far as the jurisdiction point is concerned I have only one matter to add. Reliance was

placed on the fact that under Section 1(1) of the Charging Orders Act 1979 the charge may

be imposed in order to secure "the payment of any money due or to become due under the

judgment or order." Those words appear to me to be wholly without significance for present

purposes, when one observes that Section 86 of the County Courts Act 1984, having first

imposed an embargo on the execution of the order until after default in payment of some

installment according to the order, goes on to provide by subsection (3) as follows: "Except

so far as may be otherwise provided by county court rules made for those purposes,

execution or successive executions may issue if there is any such default for the whole of

the said sum of money and costs then remaining unpaid or for such part as the court may

order either at the time of the original order or at any subsequent time; but except so far as

may be otherwise provided by such rules, no execution shall issue unless at the time when it

issues the whole or some part of an installment which has already become due remains

unpaid."

11. Following a review of charging orders by the Office of Fair Trading in 2010, it was stated

in their press release on 22 November 2010:

‘2. A charging order is one of a number of enforcement methods available to creditors to

ensure that judgment debts are satisfied. A charging order can only be applied for where a

court judgment has already determined that a debtor owes money to the creditor, and

payment under that judgment is not forthcoming.’

12. My husband xxxx has joint interest in this property and would be prejudiced if a Charging

Order is applied to a property for a debt which he does not owe.

13. My husband, by virtue of his earning more than I do pays the mortgage.

14. In their application xxxx makes no reference to any other creditors (other than the

Mortgage lender) and by being awarded a Charging Order I believe that this would give them

an unfair advantage over these creditors, with whom installment orders are in place.

14. If the court awards a Charging Order to the Applicant, I believe that this would prejudice

the chance for my husband and I to obtain future beneficial mortgage deals, the inevitable

consequence being that our monthly mortgage payments would increase and I would be

forced to submit a further application to the court to consider a decrease in the monthly sum

payable to xxxx.

15. This has been the family home for xx years and I do not anticipate selling it in the future.

At present my children all live at home..

16. The sum claimed in the application for a charging order is incorrect; £xx has already

been cleared, bringing the sum outstanding down to £xxxx.xx from £xxxx.xx.

 

 

I, xxxx, believe the above Statement to be true and factual.

 

Signed: _________________________ _______

Date: _________________________ _______

 

Regards

 

Andy

[bradfordlad]

Hi andy,

 

thought I'd better update you!

 

So, I went to the hearing and met the agent for the solicitors. She explained the process to me, and when we were called she showed me where to go etc - very helpful.

 

Walked into chambers, and met the Deputy DJ - very nice lady. The agent explained that they wanted the Order, that I had attended to explain my objections, but that we'd offered £15pcm and they were happy to accept that amount. I then explained that I'd been offering installments since January, but the solicitor had only accepted the proposed payment once the ICO had been accepted, and I thought that they had effectively abused the system to get the charging order (didn't make reference to the Restriction).

 

The DDJ listened intently, and then told me that they were within their rights to request the CO, and as they'd agreed to accept £15 a month she would order that they get the CO. but providing I pay the £15 a month nothing will happen - and if I miss one or two payments I shouldn't worry because they won't be able to do anything about it while ever the kids are living there!

 

So the bottom line is, there's now a Restriction on my wife's half of any equity in the property if or when we sell.

 

Happy with £15 a month, p'd off we had to get a CCJ & restriction to get there especially when we offered them £39.07 a month way back in October 2009!!!!!!!

[AndyOrch]

Many thanks BL

 

Its nice to hear the outcome, although this was a fait accompli so to speak.Still you attended and made your points which were taken into consideration and noted.

Maintain your £15 pm and you shouldn't hear from them again.

 

C,est la vie.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[42man]

Just thought you might find this interesting - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?827-Examples-of-unfair-treament

[bradfordlad]

Here we are again with my annual update on the Citicard situation.

 

To summarise,. C A B O T instructed Quantum Debt Recover, who have now instructed Wright Hassall solicitors (received letter today) I will add an edited copy of their letter to this post shortly.

 

Effectively they are saying if I don't reply to their letter, they MAY obtain a copy of my credit file in order to better understand my finances. The credit file will help them understand:

What assets I have - HOW?!!!

My current employment status - B*LLOCKS IT WILL!

my ability to repay - OR NOT, AS THE CASE MAY BE....

 

The letter is clearly a load of rubbish, but I wondered if anyone else had come across Wright Hassall (Right *******?) before. Done a search, but they only seem to be mentioned in passing.....

 

Cheers

 

BL

[Enron]

Wright Hassall are owned by Quantum, or vica-versa. Essentially they are the same company.

 

Could be a scare-o-gram (especially when you think of the solicitors name).

 

Maybe one of the regular contributors in the Citi forum could add to this.

[Dotty50]

Hi Bradfordlad, my OH has an very old Citi CC and has also just had a letter from Wright Hassel and previously has a couple of Quantum letters but we haven't replied to them at all yet. when I get around to it I will update my thread on here.

 

Did you know that your MK thread has disappeared? Mine had gone but citizenb has managed to get it back for me but I've still lost the MK threads that I was subbing to! It's due to a recent upgrade apparently.

[bradfordlad]

Hi 42man - and thanks for the post from a year ago!! Can't belive I missed this

 

My reappearance is prompted by the letter from BoI today regarding Geoffrey Parker Bourne - the muppets who took us to court in the first place, and the fact that they were shut down in October. Firstly - should I stop the standing order? No point carrying on paying someone who's not there any more! Secondly, BoI have instructed another firm - Hillesden Securities t'as Direct Legal & Collections who will be in touch shortly apparently.

 

Any suggestions on an approach? Could the CCJ be wiped out due to unfair practices as per 42man's post above?

 

Just when I thought things had gone quiet!!!!

 

Cheers gang

 

BL

[bradfordlad]

Hi everyone!

 

Well here we are, almost 5 years on from the CCJ and surprise surprise DLC have popped up asking for up to date records and an affordability statement to "help them reach a suitable agreement with me". As if a CCJ for £15 a month isn't suitable? If they do not hear from us by 9th October they will continue to attempt to contact us.

 

SO - do I just ignore it, or do I send them away with a flea in their ear?

 

THE THING IS....... the CCJ has never appeared on my wife's credit file! Not with Noddle, Experian or Equifax. Certainly not complaining but I don't want to upset the applecart. If they are not aware of the CCJ (which I would have thought they would be seeing as they were passed the file when GPB were shut down) could they get it registered now until Jan 18 when it's 6 years old.

 

Payment of £15 a month has been maintained since the Court Order.

 

Anyone any thoughts?

 

Cheers

 

BL

[AndyOrch]

Hi BL hope you are well.

 

You could send them a little ditty along the lines that you are paying the amount set by the court dated claim number xxxxxx Judgment order...if they want more they will have to pay £255 application for a redetermination hearing.

 

Or you could simply ignore them....

 

Andy

[bradfordlad]

Hi Andy

 

good to see you're still around! Yes, had a ponder and decided to file it. I think they asked a few months ago, and I ignored that one. Don't want to alert them to the invisible CCJ - sleeping dogs and all that!!

 

Cheers

 

BL