What is Case Management Discussion? HELP

[ms_smith]

Hi there,

 

I am currently in the process of taking my former employer to ET and waiting for the date to be scheduled for CMD over the telephone, proposed by employment judge. I am going to represent myself so I spend as much time as possible reading all the info that is available online regarding ET issues. But there is only basic info - nothing more of how it looks in practice, what shoould I do before, what ask about during CMD.

My claims are sex discrimination&harassment, race discrimination& harassment, constructive dismissal and victimization.

 

Any tips from any of you guys who have it all behind yourself?

 

Thanks for any help.

[monkeychicken]

Yes, when is the CMD?

 

Please read "Employment Tribunal Claims: Tactics and Precedents" by Naomi Cunningham and Michael Reed.

 

A CMD is where the Employment Judge makes Orders and directions as to how the case should proceed and to deal with preliminary matters.

 

When this is done on the telephone, generally it is to establish the position - if the EJ doesn't quite undestand something or other.

 

Google "Employment Tribunal Rules of Procedure" or follow this link to see exactly what the ET have the powers to do.

The Employment Tribunals (Constitution and Rules of Procedure) Regulations 2004

 

Dont worry too much. The letter should tell you what the telephone CMD will try to determine. Perhaps you might like to post a few details (anonymised of course)

[ms_smith]

Hi monkeychicken,

 

Thanks a lot for all that info. I have made already that book by Naomi & Michael my new bedtime book and just printed off the other stuff. Gonna read through it ASAP.

 

I have a question: if I represent myself, do I have to send any correspondence I issue to ET (by mail, let's say) also to respondents's lawyers and ACAS or will ET do it in the course of typically administrative proceedings?

 

Erm, details about my case? Not sure if I am ready for it... sorry.

 

But big THANK YOU for any help.

xxx

[monkeychicken]

If you're unrepresented, ET will generally give you a degree of leeway.

 

I found it easier to send all documents via email (and used the read receipt facility as evidence).

 

My advice is not to copy the R in, unless you need to (e.g. if its a particular request you make where R has a time within which to object).

 

From experience, I know race discrimination cases are notoriously difficult to win and I have been told (and read) many times that unlawful constructive dismissal is even more difficult to prove.

 

Depending on how complex the case is, you may need to be aware of a number of important case law on :

 

Shifting burden of proof

comparators/ hypothetical comparators

Statutory defence

continuing act and time limits ........

 

To succeed, you have to show that:

 

1. You have been treated less favourably than another

2. because of your race

3. you have suffered a detriment as a result.

 

I believe similar situation exists for sex discrimination.

 

Victimisation is not an ulawful act, unless it is becasue you have previously carried out a protected act under at least one of the discrimination laws.

 

It is for this reason I asked for you to post some details so we can guide you a little (Race Discrimination is my bugbear). If you dont want to, thats upto you of course.

 

If you do post make sure whatever you post cannot be linked back to you because some employers seem to be looking at posts on this forum and I know of one person they tried to penalise for doing so.

[ms_smith]

Hey!

 

I have the date for CMD! To my great happines, it has been changed by the judge to a face-to-face conversation (from over the telephone one as I mentioned before).

It has been scheduled for May this year. I only wonder: is it normal? It is quite a long time... I send my last claim in November 2009. CMD is gonna be in May. Hmmm... Or is it typical of this kind of waiting?

 

I also know that the other side made a few submissions: deposit, application for costs, appl. for reduction of the number of respondents. When will I know of the judge's decision of all that? Only in May?

Edited January 21, 2010 by ms_smith

[roddyn66]

If it is anything like mine the other side will hand you a large folder of caselaw 5 mins prior to the meeting with the judge.

 

Be prepared!!

 

If it is Descimination then pay attention to which section of the act you have quoted in your ET1 i would suspect that there will be a lot of discussion around these points.

 

They will not be looking at any 'avertments' or allegations only the law and how it applies.

 

If you have any case law to quote make sure you have four copies.

 

Timing of the incidents will be very important and i would reccomend looking at Drinkel v Pinisula Business (check spelling) as it look at the entire course of events and not incidents.

 

Hope this helps

[ms_smith]

Hi again,

 

I am back to this forum, been away for a while...

 

So the CMD is next week! How does it look like?

Will their lawyer be there as well?

 

What do you mean they may hand a caselaw folder to me? I am not taking anything. I know what I need... Sounds like I will laugh them out again.

Edited May 5, 2010 by ms_smith

[Bigredbus]

As previously said, a CMD is a hearing held by a judge alone and in private...

 

Matters discussed at a CMD include:

 

a) manner in which the proceedings are to be conducted...

b) that a party provide addtional information...

c) extending any time limit...

d) postponing or adjourning any hearing...

e) giving leave to amend a claim or response...

 

etc...

 

Because your claim is part related to discrimination, the CMD is held in order to identify the issues before the hearing.

[ms_smith]

As previously said, a CMD is a hearing held by a judge alone and in private...

 

Matters discussed at a CMD include:

 

a) manner in which the proceedings are to be conducted...

b) that a party provide addtional information...

c) extending any time limit...

d) postponing or adjourning any hearing...

e) giving leave to amend a claim or response...

 

etc...

 

Because your claim is part related to discrimination, the CMD is held in order to identify the issues before the hearing.

 

Thanks for your reply Bigredbus,

 

I have some of the information you posted in the letter I received a few months ago. But it still doesn't tell me: will the respondents' lawyer be there as well or is it gonna be just a one-to-one meeting?

 

Many thanks again for your help.

[fluffy_bunny]

As previously said, a CMD is a hearing held by a judge alone and in private...

[ms_smith]

Fluffy bunny, I didn't ask you...

[Bigredbus]

Both parties may be invited to the CMD...

[ms_smith]

Both parties may be invited to the CMD...

 

Ah, I see. Well then, I shall prepare for an interesting meeting.

 

I have actually started writing my final speech already (before CMD itself!), so imagine my readiness and enthusiasm!

 

I feel very strong, my case is based on hard evidence. They can even get the Pope to testify against me, but I guess the Pope would start to pray for them instead...

 

Right, off to another campaign...

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you

Edited May 8, 2010 by ms_smith

[honeybee13]

Good luck then. Please let us know how it goes and your personal highlights if they won't get you into trouble .

 

HB x

[ms_smith]

Hello!!

 

I am glad you wrote to me honeybee. Glad to see someone of a human nature again... (no offence to others! I love you too xxxxxxxxxxxx )

 

My personal highlights? Hmmm, what do you know already? Who has sent you to write to me, huh ? Coz you have touched the right string...

 

Well, are you ready for a shock? My case is a cover-up of a sex scandal - I was sacked (constructively) for refusing to take part in a sex game + victimized for expressing my personal thoughts (still within the law of course). Did I say too much? Oh, and the lawyer I turned to in the first place, resigned himself from representing me... Can't say he didn't help me at all but can't say I am unhappy about it either...

 

Back into legal proceedings: the case has turned into a pre-hearing review so, though being a layman, I have the notion it is good for me.... I know I shall start with the bundle and witnesses' statements ASAP.

When I was reciting the main reason for my resignation (continuous lack of bias-free decisions - as opposed to terms implied in every contract of employment), their lawyer had to... lay down on his chair .

 

But I do need your help guys. What shall I remember about when preparing the bundle? I know about keeping it concise (as nicely advised by the chairman during CMD). What else?

Thanks a lot again. To all of you, yeah yeah, fluffy bunny, that means you as well...

Edited May 10, 2010 by ms_smith

[honeybee13]

Hello there and thank you for the reply. Steady on though, I'm a married woman !

 

Sorry I can't comment on preparing a bundle, or rather you wouldn't want me to, as I know nothing about that. I'm sure someone clever will be along soon. Your case sounds intriguing and I hope you will tell us all the gory detail in due course. Just don't get yourself into trouble by saying too much on an open forum.

 

My best, HB x

[Bigredbus]

Hi,

 

The bundle must be prepared in accordance with CPR 39 - Bundles of documents for hearings or trial.

 

Link to CPR39PD: PRACTICE DIRECTION 39A – MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS RELATING TO HEARINGS - Ministry of Justice

[ms_smith]

Hello there and thank you for the reply. Steady on though, I'm a married woman !

 

Sorry I can't comment on preparing a bundle, or rather you wouldn't want me to, as I know nothing about that. I'm sure someone clever will be along soon. Your case sounds intriguing and I hope you will tell us all the gory detail in due course. Just don't get yourself into trouble by saying too much on an open forum.

 

My best, HB x

 

Oh, no worries, I love married women as well ! I am also a psychology & counselling (with already some voluntary practice) student, so I make no exceptions.

 

Naaah, it is not me to put myself in trouble, on an open forum as well. I should say that I actually have loooooooaaaaadddsssss of experience in putting others in trouble there... as well... On a regular basis... (me campaigner, you know...)

Some people are wise, some are otherwise... (no offence fluffy bunny )

 

Cheers, you take care too.

I guess you will just hear about it all soon...

 

I need a smoke. Thank God there are those nicotine-free these days...

 

xxx

 

P.S. Even if "they" would try to undermine my credibility saying that I am breaking something on an open forum blah blah blah right now (which is not the case as I haven't mentioned any particular names - only them and I know what is going on and from who exactly), it will be straightforwardly against the law as well - they will be acting defensively and mischievously, following evidenced already complaints I made about them in front of ET. Also, they will try to influence the judges, which is rather a suicidal act. I wouldn't be surprised if the case was transferred to another body - where crimes are being judged, also attempted... (no, they didn't manage to physically touch me or so coz I resigned).

Oh, hold on, this is actually the case as I was already told by ET that there was a thought given whether this is the employment issue at all...

Hmm, I love this song of Shania Twain "I'm gonna getcha good" recently. I am gonna sing my own song soon though...

Edited May 11, 2010 by ms_smith

[ms_smith]

Hi,

 

The bundle must be prepared in accordance with CPR 39 - Bundles of documents for hearings or trial.

 

Link to CPR39PD: PRACTICE DIRECTION 39A – MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS RELATING TO HEARINGS - Ministry of Justice

 

Thanks very much, Big...

What about the schedule of loss? I am asked to prepare it as well.

I have resigned with the immediate effect by the end of August last year, by a miracle found another job just over two weeks later. So I can't say I lost that much of wages (National Minimum), I wasn't either on a pension scheme. But they definitely undermined my reputation as a student of psychology (malicious gossips coming out from the people at the workplace to influence others, including people who were friends of mine on facebook...). Apart from that, I believe I have saved my life... Obvious, papered sexual harassment (twicely denied by the level of management + sexually harassed by the person to whom I was supposed to appeal against the decision) would turn into their violence - been poked through facebook by one of the respondents recently (the most psychopatic one, have the print out of course) - little incident now but a huge tragedy in the future.

What would you advice on that schedule of loss, Bigredbus or others? Can you price a human life at all? I guess all I can and should claim are aggravated and exemplary damages...

Sorry if it made you cry. I had no choice...

Edited May 11, 2010 by ms_smith

[Bigredbus]

(a) loss of pay

(b) overtime

© commissions

(d) bonuses

 

Any benefits?

 

Is there a difference in wages between your past employment and the present one?

[ms_smith]

Benefits? LOL, not really coz the only benefits I could mention would be the taxis. The thing is, I complained about the taxi scheme in the meantime...

I worked as a waitress... , after work: Human Rights Activist and psychology student. Have always wanted to study psychology. Even sit for exams for psychology at university in my homeland, a few years ago, but failed... (actually, it would be a good idea to get like a confirmation from that uni as the HR Manager was also harassing me that I treat psych. studies as an excuse for my campaigns... :/ so imagine, what kind of person was responsible for the decision making process... )

Yes, I lead quite a colourful life nevertheless...

It is a hotel industry...

 

Difference in wages? Depending on the political party - still National Minimum so: no. I am not here for money...

"Don't mess up with waitresses", I shall start writing on my forehead.

 

Will it be mental harassment if they start accusing me of being sent with Jihad?

 

Time for another smoke...

Sh*t! Looks like I am a proper prodigy... :/

Edited May 11, 2010 by ms_smith

[honeybee13]

Ms_Smith, you certainly cut straight to the chase, don't you? I'm amazed they managed to stand up to you, but then I know myself that my own advice doesn't always work for me.

 

Take care, prodigy.

 

HB

[ms_smith]

I am not doing this for myself or money, honey...

I am doing this for the greater good... At least I believe in so. Have watched too much... have witnessed too much...

The problem is - they didn't know me at all, oops . Who they saw was a waitress from Poland, oh, "she probably came here to earn some money, send it back to Poland, blah blah... What can she do to us, huh?"

They tried to intimidate me with their quantity, haha! What about the quality? Sucks! Shame, it is a bit too late to apologise without the world witnessing.

Also, you can't expect that you will always be working with the most intelligent people in the world in hospitality. But you do have the right to expect that the managers will listen to and respect ALL of their staff (not only the guests) as well, at ALL times.

 

Before them b*****ds, I worked for a different chain. Before I left, I was the supervisor with probable chances to be the manager. I sacrificed to join different chain at a lower level but in a hope to get transfered one day back to a Polish property, just in case... have an open gate... I do not regret any single minute...

 

Am I afraid? Only of myself...

I guess my advice would be: do not waste your talents. If you haven't discovered them yet, do discover - communicate with as many people as possible and be yourself.

And I guess I shall say THANK YOU to all those idiots who decided to annoy a woman at work... - a human rights activist after work...

I wouldn't make it without them!!!!

Call me Polish Erin Brockovich. I won't get offended.

 

P.S. They wanted a cover? No problemo! They got undercover!

 

Right, I am switching off. Got some paperwork...

Prepare for "impact". I am coming out...

 

xxx

Edited May 11, 2010 by ms_smith

[honeybee13]

Good for you. I understand your motivation and I applaud you for it.It's a bit like my own motivation trying to help people here.

 

I look forward to reading it, come back soon.

 

HB

[ms_smith]

Good for you. I understand your motivation and I applaud you for it.It's a bit like my own motivation trying to help people here.

 

I look forward to reading it, come back soon.

 

HB

 

Thanks honeybee!

 

Let's relax for a while...

Let's have some music...

But don't take it literally. I have always liked using metaphors, symbols etc. when describing the reality...

So this is the reality of my case...

 

YouTube - Crazy Frog Axel F Video

 

I am the one sitting in the armchair, in my Centre of Command... /as a human rights activist I work through the internet - you can get through to anywhere, can't you? even people's hearts :)/

The chase guy is just my sense of justice... So one day I have parked one out of millions of my automatic & magnetic tanks (think tank ;D) on a conspired nest of wasps and hornets (am glad you are different, honey, you are honeyBEE! xxx)

Will you make out the rest? (I also trained myself as a teacher in PL so I guess that's my leftover - teaching techniques )

Will my case bring an end to that kinds of nest? There's no other option!

Hope you all enjoy it!

 

I am still sitting in the armchair... NO WORRIES

/edition/ Just to let you know: in the past I have also "dismantled" Nigerian mafia (made them confess to a fraud and I had their statement on my mobile phone - "as you know this is a [problem] will you work with us?"; I went to the police but they said that they cannot do anything coz I haven't lost anything! law really need to be changed, isn't it? attempted fraud is also a crime) so they reaaaalllly don't know who they are playing with...

 

mwah!

xx

Edited May 12, 2010 by ms_smith