Jacobs - Advice Needed

[Theshuffler1989]

Hi All,

 

Just wanted some advice on what todo with my bailiff problem.

 

A couple of weeks ago i had a bailiff walk up my path and post a letter through my door and walk away. It said in big red letters i owe £1600 and i knew straight away this was for council tax. Last year i had fallen behind on payments and missed a couple of months I phoned the council and attempted to set up a payment plan as i cant afford to pay £1600 just before christmas. They refused and said its been passed to the bailiffs and i have to deal with them. Ive been looking around this website and found alot of useful information! I now know all the bailiffs powers and i even phoned the coucill and spoke to a very nice lady on the phone who confirmed everything. They cannot force their way into my house unless they have gained peaceful entry previously, which they have not.

 

Yesterday i recieved another letter through the door, Big red border red letter saying "NOTICE OF INTENTION TO FORCE ENTRY AND REMOVE GOODS" Now i know they cant do that so why have they given me a letter saying they are going to break into my house i decided to give this bailiff a phone call on the number he left on the letter. i was very calm and polite and asked him why he left me a letter stating he was going to force entry into my home when i know he cant. he then replied by scream down the phone "Dont you dare tell me how todo my job, ive been doing it for 8 years and i WILL be coming to your house tommorow to remove your locks and take what i want". I just got really scared and had to hang up the phone.

 

I am now TERRIFIED he is going to come tommorow and take my locks off

 

i also tried setting up a payment plan with the bailiff company but they said no. so i just want Jacobs to pass the debt back to the councill so i can deal with it with them.

 

ALSO i was under the impression that i owed £1300 but when i got the bailiffs bill it says i owe £1600 so i think he is also trying to swindle me with the fee's :S he didnt give me a breakdown of the charges or anything

 

Any advice on this would be great

 

Sorry about my grammer

 

Jon

[FairPlay77]

THERE is no need to be terrified. As long as you have not previously granted permission for the bailiff to enter your home, he is POWERLESS, and he knows it: that's why he was so angry when you spoke to him.

 

If a bailiff or anyone you suspect of being a bailiff calls, do not open the door and do not even speak to them, and of course make sure that all doors and windows are closed so that he cannot gain entry.

 

The charges he is trying to extort from you are grossly excessive. The correct charges are £24.50 for a first visit, plus £18 for a subsequent visits.

 

Your best bet is to complain in writing, in the strongest possible terms, to the council about the threatening behaviour of their bailiff, pointing out that as the bailiff co is under contract to the council, the council is responsible for the bailiffs' behaviour. Asl at the same time for the council to take back your account, and start paying them anyway, in affordable instalments, electronically or by standing order. DO NOT send money to the bailiff and deal only with the council. Once you have started paying them, they are not going to refuse your money.

[dx100uk]

THERE is no need to be terrified. As long as you have not previously granted permission for the bailiff to enter your home, he is POWERLESS, and he knows it: that's why he was so angry when you spoke to him.

 

If a bailiff or anyone you suspect of being a bailiff calls, do not open the door and do not even speak to them, and of course make sure that all doors and windows are closed so that he cannot gain entry.

 

The charges he is trying to extort from you are grossly excessive. The correct charges are £24.50 for a first visit, plus £18 for a subsequent visits.

 

Your best bet is to complain in writing, in the strongest possible terms, to the council about the threatening behaviour of their bailiff, pointing out that as the bailiff co is under contract to the council, the council is responsible for the bailiffs' behaviour. Asl at the same time for the council to take back your account, and start paying them anyway, in affordable instalments, electronically or by standing order. DO NOT send money to the bailiff and deal only with the council. Once you have started paying them, they are not going to refuse your money.

 

can't agree more.

 

dx

[Theshuffler1989]

Thanks for your quick replys

 

I should start writing my letter immediately. Is their a template letter which i could use as a base or my letter? I am awful with my grammer you see.

 

Thanks

 

Jon

[dx100uk]

print off exactly what you have written here

 

i'd also pay the council 'something' on a regular basis, you can use internet banking and the info on the reverse of a CTAX bill.

they cannot refuse it this way.

 

aside from the issue of the bailiffs actions, which the council are responsible for, as he is their agent, you REALLY need to address payments.

 

do you have afigure from them upon what you actually owe THEM?

 

dx

[ploddertom]

You've been given sound advice by both FairParking and DX100, however you do need a couple of more things to move on to the same plane as the Bailiff.

 

Contact the Council again and ask them how much the Liability order was for and how much is still outstanding, also when did they pass it to the Bailiff.

 

As you appear to have been stung for charges you should also request a statement of your account including screenshot from them. You are not requesting info under data protection so there is no need to pay the £10 they are likely to ask for.

 

Providing you can keep the Bailiff at arms length you have nothing to worry about, it is only when he acheives a levy that the ball game changes. Make sure there is nothing loose lying around outside and if your car is there well make sure it is moved well away. Even if on finance it is easier to keep it out of the way,

 

As has been said pay your Council Tax direct - online or automated phone - paying this way it has to be accepted. Regular payments at a level you can afford are the best way forward. It will no doubt infuriate your newest friend but a sharp 2 finger salute to him is best. Ignore his threats about breaking in, bringing the police or having you arrested they are all hot air.

 

Eventually he will give up but you do have endure the onslaught first.

 

PT

[merlin100]

Just a thought here. The OP says he/she has it in writing that the bailiff intends to force entry.

We all know that he cannot do this legally.

This looks to me like quite a powerful weapon to use against him. Both through intent and intimidation.

Any thoughts anyone?

[Nintendo Pü]

The police definition of forced entry is different to the public perception.

 

Forced entry according to police is a bailiff entering a property by opening an unlocked door, putting foot into the threshold of the door when it is answered by the occupant or just climbing in through a window.

 

Public perception is a bailiff forcing open a door and physically pushing aside a person opening the door. The expression 'forced entry' can conjure up the image of bailiffs smashing down the door.

 

Some might consider forced entry the same as breaking & entering.

 

Marstons has a MO of leaving documents at the address threatening debtors with "locksmiths", this is actally a criminal offence in its own right because its called going equipped to commit burglary and is an offence under Section 25 of the Theft Act 1968. Police will play ignorance when such a crime is reported, and fail to investigate whether a court as actually ordered the property to be broken into (very rarely given, and is NEVER done - no legislation available - with unpaid council tax and parking ticket cases)

[Theshuffler1989]

Thanks for your replies.

 

I shall contact the council and ask how much the liability order was for so i know exactly how much the charges are being added.

 

Also the letter which was left says "If you are not at home we will utilize the services of a locksmith to gain entry to your home and the removal will proceed in your obsence". Can they do this? Cant i use this against them?

 

Thanks

 

Jon

[Nintendo Pü]

Do lose that locksmith document because it can be given in evidence.

 

If a bailiff threatens to bring a locksmith and break into your home, he commits an arrestable offence under Section 25 of the Theft Act 1968. It is called going equipped to commit burglary. Make a clean copy of the bailiff's locksmith document and send it to Police with the following letter. Keep the original locksmith document in a safe place.

 

Your document is sufficient evidence and the police should at minimum, arrest the bailiff and question him under caution at a police station and the bailiffs DNA goes on the national database!

 

The Chief Constable

Name of Police Authority

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

 

DATE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Reporting a crime - Section 6 of the Criminal Law Act 1977

 

I enclose copy of document left at my home by a man saying he is a bailiff (the suspect) and it threatens to enter my home by force using a locksmith. I understand this commits an arrestable offence under Section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984.

 

On 17 March 1998 Lord Justice Morritt in the High Court ruled that bailiffs having a Walking Possessions Agreement cannot remove anything whilst the debtor is absent unless it is pre-arranged by appointment and with an Order signed by a Judge. The Judge also said in his conclusion (quote) However it should be noted that in cases such as these there may be a sanction pursuant to Section 1 of the Criminal Damage Act 1971. In other cases the provisions of Section 6 of the Criminal Law Act 1977 may apply also. (unquote). Khazanchi & Anor v Faircharm Investments Ltd & Ors [1998] EWCA Civ 471.

 

I appreciate the police have a tendency to dismiss reports of bailiff crime to be a civil matter, but I understand that concealing a crime under a pretence it is a civil matter is called "Perverting the Course of Justice". I ask that the police refrain from looking for reasons not to investigate the crime, or take steps to conceal it.

 

Please assign a crime reference number and I request the crime is investigated professionally and objectively and I am happy to help you in your enquiries and stand as a prosecution witness at trial. I still have the original threat document if it is needed in evidence.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

YOUR NAME

Enc: copy document making threat to enter by force with a locksmith.

 

If the police fob you off with excuses or tries a delay tactic, write down the name and rank of the police officer and contact the IPCC and your MP with a written complaint of 'Perverting the Course of Justice'. It is an offence under Section 4 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 to conceal a crime under false pretences. You will then find the police will start cooperating soon enough!

[Theshuffler1989]

Thank you soo much, i will get this sent out TODAY.

 

Having trouble finding the address of my local police station :s

[Theshuffler1989]

sent the letter now

 

thanks for you all help. ill keep you all posted about what happend

[Theshuffler1989]

just a thought. Should i send a letter to the council also explain what has happened? as i am led to believe the council can be responsible for the bailiffs actions

 

Jon

[ploddertom]

just a thought. Should i send a letter to the council also explain what has happened? as i am led to believe the council can be responsible for the bailiffs actions

 

Jon

 

Will do no harm to keep them in the loop so they know what sort of tricks they agents get up to.

 

PT

[Nintendo Pü]

just a thought. Should i send a letter to the council also explain what has happened? as i am led to believe the council can be responsible for the bailiffs actions

 

Jon

 

You will get a letter your complaint is being investigated, two weeks later, your complaint is dismissed.

[Theshuffler1989]

what should i do when i find out they have swindled me with their fee's? i shall find out tomorrow morning when i give them a ring

[Nintendo Pü]

You just ask the council to pay you with a simple letter before action. If no positive response then file a Form N1. The law says a bailiff can charge £24.50 to visit you, no letter fees or anything else - assuming the bailiff has not transported your goods in a van. For now, just telephone the council and ask the amount shown on the Liability Order.

[Theshuffler1989]

phoned the councill and they have said the liability order was for £1323 and the bailiffs bill came upto £1673 which is £350 of fee's! unbelievable!

 

Sorry nintendo but am still unsure what todo now :s

[Nintendo Pü]

Deal with it the the Happy Contrails way.

 

The law prescribing bailiffs fees for collecting unpaid council tax is the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and provides £24.50 for a first visit. He can charge a further £18 for a second visit (if genuinely made). No other bailiff's fees can lawfully be charged if a bailiff has not moved your goods in a vehicle and you have not signed any document consenting to a levy or a walking possessions agreement (currently a flat rate of £10).

The law provides "Reasonable costs" to transporting your goods or vehicle to auction and selling them. If a bailiff asks you to pay a fee for a breakdown of costs under a pretence it is accessing personal data under the Data Protection Act 1998, then you do not owe the bailiff any costs. Culligan -v- Marston Group Ltd et-al, no. 8CL51015, District Judge Avent said - because the Bailiff produced no breakdown of his charges, he is unable to show that it is reasonable costs. Therefore, spuriously named fees such as, van fees, tow truck fees, attending to remove fees and admin fees are NIL. The law does not provide for bailiffs to make a gain for himself or another by transporting your goods or vehicle to auction and selling them.

If a bailiff defrauds you with his fees, he commits an arrestable offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006. It is called fraud by false representation.

The following procedure currently has a 100% success rate. The letter below asks the bailiff to pass a truth-test about his fees. Three things can happen:

1) The bailiff tries to convince you his fees comply with the law – you now have a written confession he intended to defraud you

2) He can refund you – this is called mitigation of intent to defraud and accepts the opportunity to put things right

3) No reply – you can proceed with litigation at your leisure

In any event, you have the bailiff with pants at half mast

The Bailiff Company

Their Address 1

Their Address 2

Their Address 3

Postcode

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

DATE

Dear Sir/Madam

Re: [YOUR NAME + REF]: Your fees.

I write following visits by your bailiff however there appears to an irregularity with your fees and I am writing to ask you to provide me the following within seven (7) days:

1) The name of the court that issued the certificate for the bailiff in charge.

2) Written itemised breakdown of a) your fees, and b) the original debt.

3) The name and address of the organisation that instructed you

4) If you have charged non-statutory fees prescribed in law, a breakdown of your costs to show they are reasonable and not charged for the purpose of making a gain for yourself or another.

5) a) Truthfully confirm in writing your fees are lawful and comply with legislation or, b) refund me the unlawful fees plus reasonable compensation for being cheated by your bailiff with his fees by midday the seventh day from the date of this letter.

A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an arrestable offence under the Fraud Act 2006. Section 2 of the Act specifically describes a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss therefore, if no satisfactory refund is made to me by 12.00 midday seven (7) days from the date of this letter I will automatically file a complaint to police under the 2006 Fraud Act and the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. If you have charged VAT on unlawful fees then you may be reported for VAT fraud and your documents will be given in evidence.

Case law requires I recover unlawful bailiffs fees from your client that instructed you. If you fail to make the required refund within seven days I will automatically proceed by filing the claim at court.

This is a letter before action and is not a request to access any personal data about me in the meaning of the Data Protection Act 1998. It is delivered by Royal Mail and deem it good service upon you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It now is your responsibility and in your best interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

Yours Sincerely

YOUR NAME

Copied to: [NAME OF COUNCIL]

Send a copy of the letter to the council along with a copy of the bailiff’s fee document.

Head of Revenue

Borough Council

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

[DATE]

Dear Sir/Madam

Re: Council tax arrears and your bailiffs fees

Please find a copy of a letter before action that has been delivered by even post to your contractor who is claiming you have instructed to act.

You bailiff contractor has been caught cheating with his fees and I am giving them an opportunity to put things right.

It is my intention to file a complaint with the Local Government Ombudsman under Section 26 of the Local Government Act 1974 because the council has not complied with regulations prescribing bailiffs fees (currently £24.50 for a visit). The Act does require me to give the council an opportunity to put things right and comply with the law before making the complaint.

A bailiff defrauding a taxpayer with his fees commits an arrestable offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006, and a complaint may be passed tom Police. Lord Lucas at the House of Lords on 20 April 2007 when he asked HM Government whether it would be right for the police to claim that such an action is a civil and not a criminal matter. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal) replied with, inter-alia (quote) A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006 (unquote).

Section 1 means by which this offence can be committed is set out in Section 2, on fraud by false representation. This section applies where a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss. It is also possible that, where a bailiff repeatedly charges for work that has not been done, this conduct will amount to fraudulent trading either under Section 9 of the 2006 Act or under the provisions on fraudulent trading in company legislation.

If the council wishes to settle this complaint, I ask the council to comply with the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992, withdraw enforcement action, remove bailiffs fees from the account and confirm the council has done this within 4 business days of this letter.

You may wish to launch an investigation, or make your own enquiries but this does not delay the complaint being filed at the Ombudsman. This is necessary because the council has been discovered to be defrauding taxpayers under a pretence of charging statutory bailiffs fees. The bailiff indicated they are defrauding taxpayers routinely and systematically en-masse, and the council is under a duty to protect taxpayers from criminal activity by its own contractors.

These documents are delivered by Royal Mail and deem it good service upon you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It now is your responsibility and in your best interests they are handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

Yours Faithfully

[YOUR NAME]

Encs:

1 Copy of letter to bailiff

2. Copy of bailiff document showing his fees.

If you don't get a satisfactory resolve, or you are fobbed off with excuses, file a complaint with the Local Government Ombudsman, enclosing a copy of the above letter, and proceed to file a criminal complaint to police.

When a bailiff defrauds you with his fees he commits an arrestable offence. Your document is sufficient evidence and the police should at minimum, arrest the bailiff and question him under caution at a police station and the bailiffs DNA goes on the national database!

The Chief Constable

Name of Police Authority

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

DATE

Dear Sir/Madam

Re: Reporting a crime committed under the Fraud Act 2006

I enclose a document given to me by a man saying he is a bailiff firm [and threatened to commit breaking and entering and take property unless I pay him £AMOUNT]. He charged fees £AMOUNT when the law prescribes a fee of £24.50.

I appreciate the police have a propensity to dismiss bailiff crime to be a civil matter, but the official legal position is the bailiff commits an arrestable offence under the 2006 Fraud Act. Lord Lucas at the House of Lords on 20 April 2007 when he asked HM Government whether it would be right for the police to claim that such an action is a civil and not a criminal matter. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal) replied with, inter-alia (quote) A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006 (unquote).

Section 1 means by which this offence can be committed is set out in Section 2, on fraud by false representation. This section applies where a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss. It is also possible that, where a bailiff repeatedly charges for work that has not been done, this conduct will amount to fraudulent trading either under Section 9 of the 2006 Act or under the provisions on fraudulent trading in company legislation.

The law can provide reasonable costs in respect of bailiffs transporting goods in a van (attending to remove fee) however no goods have been levied and no document has been signed by me. District Judge Advent on the 9th & 24th September 2008 presiding over Case 8CL51015 Anthony Culligan (Claimant) v 1. Jason Simkin & 2. Marstons (Defendants). The court ruled that (quote) because the bailiff produces no evidence as to how the charge had been arrived then he unable to show that it is reasonable (unquote).

Any offence committed under the 2006 Fraud Act is an arrestable offence under Section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Please assign a crime reference number and I request the crime is investigated professionally and objectively and I am happy to help you in your enquiries and stand as a prosecution witness at trial. I respectfully ask that police do not look for reasons for not investigating a crime or try to conceal it in some way to avoid passing the case to the Crown Prosecution Service.

Yours Sincerely

YOUR NAME

Enc: copy of bailiff document giving contact details

If the police fob you off with excuses or tries a delay tactic, write down the name and rank of the police officer and contact the IPCC and your MP with a written complaint of 'Perverting the Course of Justice'. It is an offence under Section 4 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 to conceal a crime under false pretences. You will then find the police will start cooperating soon enough!

[Theshuffler1989]

The bailiff didnt give me a copy of a fee document. Should i phone jacobs and ask for one to be sent? or should i just send the first letter in your last post and wait the 7 days for them to give me one?

 

Thanks nintendo

[Nintendo Pü]

The bailiff will ask you to pay a £10 fee for a breakdown of his fees, they pretend a fee breakdown is accessing personal data as it is defined in Section 2 of the Data Protection Act 1998. Its an old bailiffs delay tactic and a fees [problem].

 

Just use the letter above to ask the bailiff to pass a truth test, or he can mitigate the fees are unlawful and accept the opportunity to put things right before you start litigation.

[Theshuffler1989]

one more thing nintendo.

 

I used the link which is given on a sticky on this forum which enables you to search for bailiffs who are certified. The bailiff who came to my home and dropped off this letter is not on this list.

 

WHat does this mean? i thought he HAD to be certified?

 

Jon

[hallowitch]

the list is not always 100% phone

Ministry of Justice Public Register of Bailiffs on 020 3334 6355 remember to ask if he works for Jacobs

[Nintendo Pü]

 

WHat does this mean? i thought he HAD to be certified?

 

Jon

 

It depends on the type of debt the bailiff is collecting. Generally any bailiff that is handling public money must have a certificate, its not a legal requirement for court fines, but for parking tickets, the law requires it - Section 78(7) of the Road Traffic Act 1991.

 

A person holding a bailiffs certificate only means the bailiff has been tested to be of good honest character, and has made over a security or insurance policy of £10,000 to protect the court or local authority creditor incase the bailiff absconds with their money.

 

Some commentators on this forum are under an impression that holding a certificate forms a contract between himself and members of the public enabling him to charge fees carte-blanche without having a costs order.

[Theshuffler1989]

hello all,

 

The money i owe to the bailiffs is actually in my fathers name and he doesnt know anything about computers so i just sit and write everything for him. He is under alot of stress over this bailiff threatening to break in, he's been locking himself in, not opening any windows and is scared to leave the house on its own.

 

on Christmas eve he was having chest pains and had to be rushed to hospital and he laster found out he had a stroke and lost the ability to talk for a good few hours. He is getting better now he can talk ok but stutters allot. The doctors says this was due to stress and i know this bailiff has contributed a hell of a lot to his stroke.

 

i want some advice on what i can do next regarding this. i dont want this bailiff to get away with this. Its just wrong

 

Thanks

 

Jon