caught by inspector , hellllp

[timbo58]

Whilst you have good points about the train companys failing it is not them who are facing charges- and going down this route will make you sound like the majority of 'bang-to-rights' fare dodgers seen by the TOcs and courts and you will get short shrift if you use a 'blame everyone else defence'.

 

I take it the inspector cautioned you and would have asked specific questions and made a statement to you such as 'if I had not stopped you today how would your fare have been paid' or similar?

If you said 'it wouldn't have' or 'I would have paid more at a later time/date' then you have admitted the fare wouldn't have been paid at the time it was due.

Once you leave the station without paying the proper fare then the offence is proven to the courts satisfaction in 99.9% of cases IME.

This is enough to prove 'intent to travel without a valid ticket', since you couldn't pay and hadn't paid.

 

How does the TOC know you are a regular passenger who always pays their fare?

How many days a week do you travel: do you have a season ticket? (if not and if it would be more cost effective to have a season ticket and you always buy tickets on a daily basis this will undermine this statement too as there could be suspicion that you only buy tickets on a daily basis as you regularly avoid paying on occasion).

You are NOT supposed to buy a ticket before boarding: You are LEGALLY obliged to do so, there is a specific difference, unlike milk or dental hygiene.

If there was an opportunity to buy before boarding (ticket queues are not an excuse) then EVERYONE who goes past this point can be questioned and reported for fare evasion, the reason it doesn't happen most of the time is the TOCs don't have that many inspectors to do this.

That is also why, in cases such as yours, if they have sufficient evidence to believe they can prove fare evasion they will usually issue court proceedings.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh: but I was an inspector manager at Reading for some time and this is most definitely my experience.

Best you can hope for is a settlement out of court offer: it won't be cheap or pleasant but fighting it or even worse ignoring it will cost a great deal more.

[Old-CodJA]

I am going to be very robust in replying this time. Timbo58 is spot on. Hiding behind excuses isn't going to cut it I'm afraid. It was your decision to travel without a right to do so.

 

You cannot get away from the facts. It doesn't matter what the amount of the fare was, you hadn't paid the fare due and couldn't pay the fare due on demand.

 

You took a chance on paying a lesser fare than that due for your intended journey and got caiught.

 

If you go into a supermarket and the item you want is priced at £20 and you only have £10 with which to pay, will you take it to the till and expect to be allowed to take it away saying I'll pay you next time I come in?

 

It is that action in making a concious decision to pay a lesser fare that encourages the rail company to charge with 'intent to avoid a fare' in this case. It shows that you knew you needed a ticket and didn't pay the proper fare for your intended journey. If you had just got on without paying anything and had been caught on train they would probably have charged you with the lesser offence of breach of Byelaw 18.1 which is 'Fail to show a ticket on demand'.

 

Having re-read your posting it seems that you made the allegation of intention even more easy to prove and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you actually made the journey without any ticket and then on arrival at the barrier line at your destination, you offered a fare for a journey that was shorter than that which you had actually made?

 

In my book, travelling from A to C and on arrival then offering to pay only from B to C is deceitful and I think that you will find the vast majority of Magistrates agree.

 

Personaly, I have sympathy with your explanation relating to difficulties at work, but that is not the concern of the rail company. So far as a rail fare is concerned, it is due at the time of travel not later. It's up to you to do something about the problems at work too, and if you are being bullied, victimised or otherwise harassed as you suggest, you should deal with that through the appropriate channels.

 

From long experience, I believe that your best chance of avoiding a conviction is to contact the prosecutor and try to settle this case administratively.

 

If you have entered a not guilty plea and assessing this case based on what you have told us here, I think it will result in an expensive conviction. I would very seriously consider taking formal legal advice if I were you.

 

Good luck

Edited January 28, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[AmberGreen]

I am going to be very robust in replying this time. Timbo58 is spot on. Hiding behind excuses isn't going to cut it I'm afraid. It was your decision to travel without a right to do so.

 

You cannot get away from the facts. It doesn't matter what the amount of the fare was, you hadn't paid the fare due and couldn't pay the fare due on demand.

 

You took a chance on paying a lesser fare than that due for your intended journey and got caiught.

 

If you go into a supermarket and the item you want is priced at £20 and you only have £10 with which to pay, will you take it to the till and expect to be allowed to take it away saying I'll pay you next time I come in?

 

It is that action in making a concious decision to pay a lesser fare that encourages the rail company to charge with 'intent to avoid a fare' in this case. It shows that you knew you needed a ticket and didn't pay the proper fare for your intended journey. If you had just got on without paying anything and had been caught on train they would probably have charged you with the lesser offence of breach of Byelaw 18.1 which is 'Fail to show a ticket on demand'.

 

Having re-read your posting it seems that you made the allegation of intention even more easy to prove and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you actually made the journey without any ticket and then on arrival at the barrier line at your destination, you offered a fare for a journey that was shorter than that which you had actually made?

 

In my book, travelling from A to C and on arrival then offering to pay only from B to C is deceitful and I think that you will find the vast majority of Magistrates agree.

 

Personaly, I have sympathy with your explanation relating to difficulties at work, but that is not the concern of the rail company. So far as a rail fare is concerned, it is due at the time of travel not later. It's up to you to do something about the problems at work too, and if you are being bullied, victimised or otherwise harassed as you suggest, you should deal with that through the appropriate channels.

 

From long experience, I believe that your best chance of avoiding a conviction is to contact the prosecutor and try to settle this case administratively.

 

If you have entered a not guilty plea and assessing this case based on what you have told us here, I think it will result in an expensive conviction. I would very seriously consider taking formal legal advice if I were you.

 

Good luck

 

Good Morning to all,

 

Dear all,

well i must thank you for your constructive advice. I do wish to clarify something first:

I do not think that bad services from the transport companies are grounds to underpay or evade paying point blank.

No the ticket inspector did not ask me how i intended to make up for the shortfall had they not stopped me that day.

I am not looking for sympathy nor looking for excuses, i was trying to explain how it happened and why i made the decision to pay a lesser fare at the time, i tried to highlight the circumstances that led to that stupid mistake, i never said it was a good idea, i acted in a way i deemed at the time most suitable (clearly i wouldn't be on this forum otherwise) .

Yes i travelled on the train and paid at the barrier because the conductor didn't walk past me, i was going to explain the situation had i seen him/her.

i couldn't disembark once i realised i was short of money, the next stop was my destination.

So what would have been the best thing to do then? does anyone know what is a passenger supposed to do (like in my case) when they realise that they don't have enough to pay for the full fare on the train, with no opportunity to disembark before arriving at their destination? Because it is not a case where i assumed i had enough funds, i checked, and saw what i believed to be sterling pounds and clearly i found out otherwise on the train

 

I didn't know i could ask for an out of court settlement. I am not very familair with the judicial system, i never needed to really

[Old-CodJA]

Good Morning to all,

 

Dear all,

well i must thank you for your constructive advice. I do wish to clarify something first:

I do not think that bad services from the transport companies are grounds to underpay or evade paying point blank.

No the ticket inspector did not ask me how i intended to make up for the shortfall had they not stopped me that day.

I am not looking for sympathy nor looking for excuses, i was trying to explain how it happened and why i made the decision to pay a lesser fare at the time, i tried to highlight the circumstances that led to that stupid mistake, i never said it was a good idea, i acted in a way i deemed at the time most suitable (clearly i wouldn't be on this forum otherwise) .

Yes i travelled on the train and paid at the barrier because the conductor didn't walk past me, i was going to explain the situation had i seen him/her.

i couldn't disembark once i realised i was short of money, the next stop was my destination.

So what would have been the best thing to do then? does anyone know what is a passenger supposed to do (like in my case) when they realise that they don't have enough to pay for the full fare on the train, with no opportunity to disembark before arriving at their destination? Because it is not a case where i assumed i had enough funds, i checked, and saw what i believed to be sterling pounds and clearly i found out otherwise on the train

 

I didn't know i could ask for an out of court settlement. I am not very familair with the judicial system, i never needed to really

 

Firstly, I have to ask where you travelled from? Knowing the answer to that will clarify what specific action was likely to have been followed. Did the station have a booking office or machine?

 

If the answer to that question is 'yes', then you should have attempted to buy a ticket before boarding. At that point you would have discovered the assumption that you had made about the coins in your purse was wrong and could have avoided the offence.

 

The next bit is only relevant if you genuinely could not get a ticket before travelling through no fault of your own. The responsibility for having the means to pay is yours.

 

The correct course of action would have been for you to actively seek out the conductor or, train manager, on the train and explain the situation. He or she would then be faced with making a decision based on the regime in place on the line on which you were travelling.

 

If it was a train where the company operates a 'Penalty Fare' regime, then at worst, you would have received a penalty notice giving an opportunity to pay or appeal within 21 days. The staff concerned could not realistically have reported you for 'intent to avoid' if you sought him or her out to explain the mistake that you had just discovered.

 

You have referred to having 'paid at the barrier because the conductor didn't walk past me'. That is a good example of further evidence supporting the charge of 'intent'. Intending to pay on train 'only if asked to do so' may be considered an intention not to pay unless asked. The traveller who knows that the fare is due, but sits tight and waits to be asked to pay runs the risk of being reported every time. You know you need to pay, it is up to you to discharge that liability at the earliest opportunity. (Appeal Court judgement in the case of Corbyn makes that point clear.)

 

Having made the decision that you did, you left the staff no choice but to make out a report.

 

Now, I believe that the best advice that I can offer is that you write to or, telephone the prosecutor very quickly and ask whether the Rail Company will allow you to settle this case by administrative penalty. The address or contact details should be provided with the Summons.

 

It really is up to you what you say, but you can explain your misunderstanding and pledge to always pay before boarding in future, offering to pay the fare that was avoided and the rail company's reasonable costs incurred to date in order that the prosecution be discontinued.

 

Although they do not have to agree to this, if they do so it will cost you a lot less than a conviction and will maintain your good name.

 

If your hearing is next week you have to act very quickly.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[timbo58]

Old-Codja gives the best and most complete info on here, it would be wise to read what he says.

 

Just a little more info for readers:

The point he has made about the passenger being responsible to seek out the ticketing staff on board the train is VERY good advice IME.

 

As long as the ticketing staff have made themselves available to be approached (i.e walked through/made P/as- all of which most have to do anyway to comply with the guards primary role) they have complied with the law and can say that an opportunity to purchase was available on board: they do NOT need to approach every single person who 'might' need a ticket to do this.

 

If I had a pound for every person who thought 'the guard didn't come round' (i.e. I am quite sure in some cases its their opinion: 'your companys servant has been negligent and I am the poor victim here') was a valid excuse I would be comfortably retired 20 years early by now!

 

There are very few ticketing staff whose sole job is to sell/check tickets, most are the 'guard' too, and let's be honest here, 90% of regular travellers know that full well, so the guard could, and probably is, busy elsewhere especially if the train has more than one or two carriages, fare evaders play on this situation on a daily basis.

 

Also IMHO 'pay only when challenged' is theft/attempted theft pure and simple, it is by far the largest fare evasion ploy and when I was an inspector it was a very common occurrence that within seconds on joining a train a passenger would appear to be asleep or well settled and seemingly be 'astonished' when asked for their ticket, a pathetic and wholly unconvincing morris dance of pretending to search pockets would play out and then 'oh I need a ticket' would be said.

 

Often at ticket barriers 'it's not my fault if your staff are lazy/can't be bothered/the guard was drinking tea in the van/machines don't work/I was late/the car park was full/I didn't get a seat anyway' is trotted out (and I am sure 5-10% of the time they may even be correct!).

 

However, I reserve my highest contempt for those season ticket holders who don't like showing their tickets (i.e. 75% of those in the shorter commuter distances into London on busier trains: Theale/Thatcham/Newbury etc all spring to mind) or think themselves above such things to deign to 'show on demand' as they are required to, it is YOU who aid & abet fare evasion and YOU who will pay higher fares because of this, you hide the real dodgers by your arrogant stupidity & you then have to stand up on busier trains when they sit for FREE.

 

Just my opinion!

[RPI]

Well said timbo!

[imucky]

Court outcome S9PROOF from £175.00 to £350.00 Fine. from £75.00 to £105.00 Costs and the Compensation

[RPI]

Court outcome S9PROOF from £175.00 to £350.00 Fine. from £75.00 to £105.00 Costs and the Compensation

So you were proven guilty by the inspectors statement, you obviously pleaded not guilty but didn't appear in court to defend your case.

[vince0000]

what do you mean old-codja by your last answer to the question about the roughly average fines for first time offenders? £460? WHAT???? by the way, i also want to ask if can i still go to court even if i have sent them a letter already that i pleaded guilty because im going back home to my country of origin. the Home Office refused my visa. So, i decided to go home. I cant wait for the reply. its almost 3 weeks now. i'm going home in the next couple of weeks. and worried about it. can i come back here again? would it be a problem if apply again to the HO? by the way, my case was all about caught using a child ticket. my case would adjourn on 26/7/10 but still waiting for their reply. hope you could give me an advice with this.... pls... and also, could someone tell me if they had received a result from the court after you reply to a court summons? plssssssssssssssssssss..........

[Wriggler7]

Vince: Yes, you can still attend Court.

 

Not sure how convictions affect different types of visa applications, and I guess that it would also depend on where you are coming from, or going to.

 

Sometimes, the problems arise from non payment of Court fines rather than the seriousness of the original offence.

 

Whilst avoiding rail fares on first conviction does not carry the possibility of going to prison, wilful non payment of fines does.

 

If you are worried, you should speak to a qualified solicitor before the case gets to Court. Duty solicitors at Court will not speak to people charged with avoiding rail fares.

[Old-CodJA]

what do you mean old-codja by your last answer to the question about the roughly average fines for first time offenders? £460? WHAT???? by the way, i also want to ask if can i still go to court even if i have sent them a letter already that i pleaded guilty because im going back home to my country of origin. the Home Office refused my visa. So, i decided to go home. I cant wait for the reply. its almost 3 weeks now. i'm going home in the next couple of weeks. and worried about it. can i come back here again? would it be a problem if apply again to the HO? by the way, my case was all about caught using a child ticket. my case would adjourn on 26/7/10 but still waiting for their reply. hope you could give me an advice with this.... pls... and also, could someone tell me if they had received a result from the court after you reply to a court summons? plssssssssssssssssssss..........

 

Hi, I need a little clarification on this one because I've checked back through the thread and think this is the first reference to your specific case, unless I've missed something.

 

It looks as if you have been charged with 'intending to avoid a fare or part thereof', is that correct?

 

You say your case 'will adjourn to 26/7/10'

 

Are you saying that you have already entered a plea of 'Not Guilty' or, do you mean that 26 July is your first hearing date?

 

What date are you returning to your home country or leaving the UK ?

 

It may make a difference as to which rail company is involved too? This is because they do have slightly differing policies on these matters, although the law is the same in all cases.

 

So far as what you can do, I'll answer this in two ways:

 

1. Firstly, if you have already pleaded 'Not guilty' and the case has been adjourned to trial on that date, you can still appear at Court and change your plea to 'guilty' if you wish, but you should only do so if you were guilty of the offence.

 

If you were using a child ticket, these are only available to persons between 5 - 15 years of age inclusive. If you have received a Magistrates Court Summons you must be 18 yrs of age at the time of the plea and the charge must be laid within 6 months of the offence. It therefore appears that you are correctly charged and I cannot see why you have pleaded not guilty UNLESS you were not the traveller reported or, there are circumstances that you have not described here. Ignorance of the law is not a defence.

 

If you do change your plea, you can expect to be given credit for that (although not as much as if you had pleaded guilty at the first opportunity) and the Court will reduce the fine accordingly.

 

2. Second, if this is not a case that has been adjourned to trial, but a first time hearing, have you already written to or, telephoned the prosecutor and asked whether the Rail Company will allow you to settle this case by administrative penalty?

 

If not, I would do so immediately. Explain the situation truthfully, including the new intention to leave the UK, and you may well find that they will allow you to make a smaller payment quickly to clear the matter up and leave you with a clean record.

 

If you can answer the three questions that I have posed in bold type at the beginning of this reply we can be more definite about the likely outcome.

 

Wriggler7 has given good advice in my opinion, although this is an imprisonable offence if charged under S5.3.C of The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 i.e; giving false details in order to avoid a fare. It is virtually unheard of for anyone to go to prison for a first time offence in these matters. Do not worry about that aspect of this, it will not happen.

 

If you have simply been charged with a Byelaw offence or intent to avoid a fare, it is unlikely that any Duty Solicitor will give free advice on these matters unless they choose to do so 'pro bono'.

 

( Giving a false name and/or address and/or date of birth are all false details. )

 

.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[vince0000]

it was LONDON UNDERGROUND. no, old codja, i pleaded guilty and wrote an apology to the justice clerk 3 weeks ago. because i cant see a reason for me to plead not guilty. but before i write to them, i called the LUPD if i could settle this out to court and just pay the fine and they're asking me £300. They said this could be decrease if i write and plead guilty which I DID. However, my concern is, im going home to the Philippines 2 weeks from now and yet to receive any reply from them. and I HAVE NO INTENTION TO RUN with this because it's not in my character. Although i did that stupid thing, it didn't even touch my brain and my guts to escape and not to pay the fine.

 

Ok OLD_CODJA, here are my answers to your questions if you cant understand what im saying above.

 

1.) i have been Summoned by the court to attend on 26/7/10. ( i think, i should not have written ADJOURN. SORRY...)

 

2.) I PLEADED GUILTY and i apologise to them by writing.

 

3.) I havent booked my ticket but i will tomorrow. but my plan is by the end of this month or 1st week of August.

 

4.) Yes, like what i have said, i called the LUPD before i wrote to the justice clerk but they're charging me £300. I asked them if there's any chance to decrease it but they just told me to write and plead guilty instead which i really did.

 

im really worried about this matter as i want to come back here again. i have been a good citizen to your country except for that thing, of course. All i need is advise from all of you and a word of encouragement. to tell you honestly, i'm not concern about the HO and go back home. I'm concern about this matter more than i really should.

 

thanks Old-Codja and wriggler7 for the advise. and looking forward to your advise again.

 

hope you can understand what am i saying to this thread.

 

thank you very very much indeed.

[vince0000]

and also, would paying an administrative fee can still have a record to the CRB or anywhere? and i forgot to ask, if is it too late to call the LUPD even though i wrote to the justice clerk already? would it be possible for the court to withdraw my case?

[Wriggler7]

If you pay the underground what they ask, it is then for the underground to withdraw the case.

 

If the case is withdrawn, the only recortd will be an 'internal' one held by the underground. It would not be a conviction.

[Old-CodJA]

1.) i have been Summoned by the court to attend on 26/7/10. ( i think, i should not have written ADJOURN. SORRY...)

 

2.) I PLEADED GUILTY and i apologise to them by writing.

 

3.) I havent booked my ticket but i will tomorrow. but my plan is by the end of this month or 1st week of August.

 

 

4.) Yes, like what i have said, i called the LUPD before i wrote to the justice clerk but they're charging me £300. I asked them if there's any chance to decrease it but they just told me to write and plead guilty instead which i really did.

 

OK, if you do nothing more, the Court will hear the case on 26th July and will impose a fine, may order you to pay a part of the prosecution costs and will also order you to pay the fare that is outstanding.

 

It is hard to say what this will add up to for certain, but my guess would be somewhere between £175 and £225 altogether. You will also have to pay a 'victim surcharge' of £15

 

It seems that the LUPD are asking you to pay £300 to avoid a Court record and the likelihood is that it may cost you less by allowing the Court to convict you.

 

If I were you,

 

a) I would attend Court on 26th,

b) put your plea of guilty in person,

c) apologise to the Magistrates for your silliness and

d) explain that you have tried to settle this with London Underground

Prosecutor's office, but they asked for a large settlement figure which

you could not afford to pay in such a short time.

 

 

 

.

[vince0000]

even if i have written my plea in my absence 3 weeks ago, i should attend to court? can they still convict me? can i still have a record in enhanced CRB? damn!

[Old-CodJA]

even if i have written my plea in my absence 3 weeks ago, i should attend to court? can they still convict me? can i still have a record in enhanced CRB? damn!

 

It is always best to attend Court and plead guilty and say sorry in person if you want to get the maximum credit from the Magistrates.

 

Pleading guilty is an admission of guilt and a conviction is recorded, but the Court will recognise that you accepted liability at the earliest opportunity

 

You will have a Court record, but this is not likely to bar you from any job unless a very high level of security is involved and even then, if you declare it and explain, I cannot think of any reason that it would harm your future.

 

.

[vince0000]

i actually want to be a train driver or even an inspector in London Underground someday. But seems like it's impossible to happen. I have a record already.