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who ownes the copywright on L.I.M.A

 

THE dwp not atos

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when you make a freedome of information request for a copy of this l.i.m.a.

software atos state

 

the dwp own the copywight and as its of a comercially sensative nature. the foa does not apply

 

what do we know on this lima program

 

they will not release or allow inspection quoting comercial sensativity

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who ownes the copywright on L.I.M.A

 

THE dwp not atos

 

That's right. Nobody has denied that fact on this thread. There is also no denying that LiMA's bad points outweigh its good points, this is down to the data input into it by the assessors, resulting in inaccurate reports. Here is another link about LiMA. There are some references to Case Law at the bottom, which highlight the issues of LiMA. Click here to view.


My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

 

 

Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against

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name me a part of the nhs as stated, from the gp to hospital that use this lima software

 

i wont hold my breath

 

Lima is part of the rapidly expanding computerised system of ‘evidence based medicine’ (EBM), which is being increasingly used in the NHS,

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I couldn't tell you whether the NHS uses LiMA, but if it does it would likely use it for the same purpose that ATOS do - electronic medical reports, not diagnostics. It's not the purpose of LiMA to diagnose a condition, and it is not required for a condition to be diagnosed for the purpose of benefit by ATOS or by LiMA, it is for the purpose of a medical report, with answers to specific questions, so that the DWP can establish whether the effects of the claimant's condition satisfies the descriptors for claiming the benefit.

 

I have a medical condition which affects my ability to work in some types of employment, but I can work as can most people with my diagnosis. That does not mean that everyone with the same diagnosis as me is capable of work. Someone else may have exactly the same condition as me but it affects them differently and makes them completely incapable of work. A diagnosis alone is not always enough to decide if a person is incapable of work which is why there are descriptors in place for claiming benefit.

 

ATOS assessments are not the same for those who are sent there by their employers and those who are sent there by the DWP for claiming benefits. For those who are sent there by their employers, as you know, the assessor has to look at how the employee's condition would affect them in their current job or other job the employer could place them on within the organisation. For benefits claimants, ATOS reports are designed to see how their condition would affect them doing any type of work. In no cases do they diagnose conditions, this is for a person's own GP or specialist to do.


My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

 

 

Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against

forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.

(exceptions for prior authorisation)

 

 

 

 

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i agree but its on the strength of the lima report that people are being denied benefit

 

why are there so many complaints about this software

 

why do the dwp accept lima and not reports from and request for patients own records from the gp

 

remeber

 

most of the time people doing these reports are not doctors and i use the term

 

HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS WITH A PINCH OF SALT

 

WHAT ARE THEY QUALIFIED IN

 

THE HPC WILL NOT TELL YOU

 

AT LEAST WITH A DOCTOR YOU HAVE TOTAL RESPECT IN HIS/HER OPINION BUT WHEN IT IS DRIVEN FOR COMERCIAL GAIN AS IN ATOS

 

THIS IS WRONG TO PUT PEOPLES HEALTH AT RISK FOR A QUICK BUCK

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why do the dwp accept lima and not reports from and request for patients own records from the gp

 

It's not LiMA they accept, the LiMA is not an entity of its own which produces the report without input - it is the information contained in the LiMA report which is input by the HCP, who is someone registered with GMC or NMC and Chief Medical Adviser to the DWP, as stated here. If a claimant finds they are not, they most definately need to raise the issue.

 

The DWP do accept GP reports. They accept the IB113/ESA 113 forms completed by GP's which may be enough to award benefit without the need for a report by ATOS. For anything outwith the IB113/ESA 113 and MED3's, under their NHS contract there is no requirement for GPs to provide reports or offer an opinion on incapacity for work. GPs are under no obligation to provide such evidence to their patients nor to provide it free of charge, this falls under the umbrella of private practice, not the NHS. So, DWP have a contract with ATOS in which DWP pay for the reports and the patient does not have to pay.

 

For employment purposes to manage sickness absence, it is most usually an OT who performs an assessment.


My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

 

 

Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against

forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.

(exceptions for prior authorisation)

 

 

 

 

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For employment purposes to manage sickness absence, it is most usually an OT who performs an assessment.

 

THAT I AGREE ON

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ErikaPNP

just a thought if they say your fit for work and you had and lost your appeal, say i were to get a job and you had an accident while doing that job. could you sue the DWP for forceing me back to work, i would say if your disabled and have an accident why your in no fit state to work thats a human rights issue methinks.:evil:

 

or anyone shed some light on this!


My advice is based on my opinion and my experience. It is not to be taken as legal advice as I am not legally qualified

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thats my case ref occupational health

 

i was threatened with the conduct code by my employer as atos report stated i was exagerating my condition and under reporting my ability

 

i ended up needing surgery

 

thats my court claim

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ErikaPNP

just a thought if they say your fit for work and you had and lost your appeal, say i were to get a job and you had an accident while doing that job. could you sue the DWP for forceing me back to work, i would say if your disabled and have an accident why your in no fit state to work thats a human rights issue methinks.:evil:

 

or anyone shed some light on this!

 

There are so many ifs and buts in there. Yes you can sue them - you can make a court claim against anyone or any organisation, but proving on the balance of probability that a person or organisation is responsible for an accident, through whatever means, is a different matter entirely. You would need to make a decision on whether the DWP are the organisation you should be suing.

 

Force: The DWP don't force anyone into a job, whether it is one which is bad for their health or not. They decide whether or not you are entitled to the benefit. If you are not entitled to the benefit, the job you take and the contract you sign to undertake that job is down to you. I appreciate that effectively you would have no other choice in order to secure an income however when dealing with law, the manner in which words can be interperated can vary - sometimes they taken literally, hence my example of the word "force".

 

So the ATOS report indicates to the DWP you are fit for work the DWP stop your benefit on the grounds that there is not enough points met to qualify for the benefit, you appeal, you lose the appeal.....you go back to work and have an accident. Do you sue ATOS, the DWP, the Tribunal Service, or your employer?

 

Who chooses the employment and type of work and signs the contract? You do.

 

Who is responsible for risk assessment in employment? You and your employer.

 

If you are incapable of doing a certain type of work due to disability, it's your reposnibility to inform your employer and your employer's responsibility to provide "reasonable adjustments", where possible to enable you to do your work without it exacerbating your condition. If that cannot be done then the employer can let you go either on medical retirement or on capability. These are just some of the matters a court would consider.

 

If you are incapable of doing any type of work whatsoever then that is what the benefit is there for. So many people do get turned down for disability benefits but are successful on appeal.

 

If you feel it is an issue of human rights, why would you go back to work after an unsuccessful appeal? Why wouldn't you go through every process there is? Where the issue is one of human rights, this being a point of law, there are a whole list of courts you could end up having to go through before you get to Strasbourg. The first three because it is benefit you are claiming: the first tier, the upper tier, judical review, court of appeal, Supreme court then ECHR in Strasbourg.

 

So in short, yes you can sue. But there is a lot more to it to sue them and win the case. I'm not saying it would be an unsuccessful case - simply pointing out some of the ifs and buts.


My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

 

 

Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against

forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.

(exceptions for prior authorisation)

 

 

 

 

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Thanks ErikaPNP.

It's not something i have gone through myself just wanted to know if it was a way through because of the way people are getting so much grief.


My advice is based on my opinion and my experience. It is not to be taken as legal advice as I am not legally qualified

If my advice has been helpful, please take a moment to click on the scales

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Could be, but you would have to take everything into consideration. I get flipping annoyed with it too. ESA medicals are supposed to focus on what a claimant can do rather than what they cannot, unfortunately it is being taken too literally in a lot of cases meaning that people who should be entitled, are denied the benefit. Thank goodness for the appeals process.


My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

 

 

Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against

forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.

(exceptions for prior authorisation)

 

 

 

 

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ErikaPNP Thanks again,

Just wonderd if Income Support is done in the same way as ESA medicals.


My advice is based on my opinion and my experience. It is not to be taken as legal advice as I am not legally qualified

If my advice has been helpful, please take a moment to click on the scales

on the bottom left hand side of my profile :p

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May I Ask With Reference To Dwp Medicals

 

Who Does The Appeals

 

Not Atos I Hope

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postggj

Not Atos

it's independent from atos.


My advice is based on my opinion and my experience. It is not to be taken as legal advice as I am not legally qualified

If my advice has been helpful, please take a moment to click on the scales

on the bottom left hand side of my profile :p

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May I Ask Who

 

Has Figures Been Released On The Amount Of Appeals This Apeals Body Uphold

 

Me Thinks A Freedom Of Information Request Is Going To Be Sent

 

Please Confirm

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It's the Tribunal Service who do appeals. Tribunals Service

 

Income Support can no longer be claimed on the grounds of incapacity for new claimants.


My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

 

 

Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against

forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.

(exceptions for prior authorisation)

 

 

 

 

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Hi ErikaPNP

So whats the difference betwteen IS and esa because im on IS long term. is there any benifit in either one. are the meds done in the same way as each other.


My advice is based on my opinion and my experience. It is not to be taken as legal advice as I am not legally qualified

If my advice has been helpful, please take a moment to click on the scales

on the bottom left hand side of my profile :p

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Erika

 

One For You Me Thinks

 

Where Would You Send A Freedom Of Information Request On The Amount Of Appeals Upheld

 

Ministry Of Justice

Dwp

 

Shooting In The Dark On This

 

Thanks

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Erika

 

One For You Me Thinks

 

Where Would You Send A Freedom Of Information Request On The Amount Of Appeals Upheld

 

Ministry Of Justice

Dwp

 

Shooting In The Dark On This

 

Thanks

 

You can do it this way or you can do it that way. On the second website, you can view or search for requests - there may already be one there with an answer. The last time I checked it was 51% of Appeals for Incapacity which were overturned in the claimant's favour.

 

 

Hi ErikaPNP

So whats the difference betwteen IS and esa because im on IS long term. is there any benifit in either one. are the meds done in the same way as each other.

 

For people already claiming IS on the grounds of incapacity or IB, it's still the PCA (Personal Capability Assessment). For those on ESA there is the WCA (The work capability assessment).

 

There are factsheets here for IB/IS and here for ESA. Eventually everyone who receives IB or IS on the grounds of incapacity will be moved on to ESA, however this will take a lot of time.


My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

 

 

Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against

forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.

(exceptions for prior authorisation)

 

 

 

 

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This is suddenly turning into a lively old thread!

 

Postggi - you mentioned earlier about checking whether your ATOS doctor was registered. How do I do that? I was seen by a 'doctor' but, to be fair, he seemed well past his sell by date...

 

Erika - You mentioned [forgive me if I'm suffering from faulty memory syndrome - it's getting to be quite an involved thread] the DWP contacting GPs. You also mentioned IB113/ESA. As far as I can see the latter is a form for the DWP / JCP to contact a GP on appeal and pay towards the cost of a GP report.

I presume that was the framework you intended your post to convey?

I ask because, to date, the DWP haven't consulted my GP during their 'rigorous medical investigation' and have relied solely on ATOS for their determinations.

 

I'm also a little interested in the computerised programme [lima?]. Is this something the DWP uses to back up the information they get?

I ask because part of my medical involved a peak flow meter. On a one-off basis this can only give a snapshot of that moment in time. A hint. To be effective it needs to be used and the result recorded over an extended period of time. For my 'one off' result, it's apparent neither ATOS nor the DWP understood what it indicated. Having confirmed things on the manufacturers website, I was not surprised to see my result doesn't even register on their minimum scale [attributed to the lung capacity of an 85 year old. I'm a tadge younger than that...].

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ILL GIVE YOU THE DETAILS FOR THE GMC IN THE MORNING

 

ARE YOU SURE IT WAS A DOCTOR AND NOT A

healt care professional

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postggj, yep, all paperwork signed DR xxxxxxx

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Has anyone managed to expemt themselves from the Medical examination on the grounds the examination itself is harmful to them?

 

I had an absoloute nighmate last time. Around that time Id made some big improvements and had started doing some volunteering. Id actually had a job interview a couple of weeks prior. Then half an hour with an atos 'professional' I was a pale trembling wreck.

 

My SAR pulled up that there was no doubt in the Dr's mind that I suffered from a 'severe mental health problem.'

 

Have read somewhere that patients with serious mood disorders for whom a medical examination would cause harm are exempt. Any chance of this?


I have no legal qualifications whatsoever, so please check any input I have for accuracy. And please correct me if you disagree!

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