True copy or original agreement incomplete

[vimto88]

Some advice please - and I think people for the posts /advice here as it is very useful

I wrote to request a true copy of the agreement I made with Capital One . What I have received is a printed copy of the credit agreement and not a copy of my signed agreement. I dont know if this is an oversight on their part as they refer in their letter to 'your personal details, the signature box , signature and date of signature have been omitted from the copy providedas permitted under Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) Regulations 1983. This implies that they were intending to sent the original agreement stripping out these details

My questions are therefore

Can they actually send a copy with these details stripped out ? how can I know that they have a proper copy of the agreement without those ? and can I insist they send one showing all of the details ?

Also by not sending the document at all with or without this information have they actually defaulted on the request as the timescale of 14 days is up today ?

Advice please on what my response should be Thanks

[boswell]

Have a look at post 4 in this thread for starters.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/223359-cca-creditors-signature.html#post2476156

[Pinky69]

It would be better if you could scan the document and post it on here minus your personal details. What Crapone send as a matter of course is the application form and current Terms and Conditions. They are correct that they do not need to send a document with dates and signatures but they must send the a document with the prescribed terms - credit limit, interest rate and repayment schedule - and they must be in the same section of the document with the signature box. In addition the T&Cs must be the originals - recent T&Cs are irrelevant because you have nothing to say the T&Cs can be varied, which would have been in the original T&Cs. In their mind they have done this but of course they haven't - the T&Cs and the application form are in now way connected. If is is an older card they don't have any agreements for them at all. This is all what usually happens but we would need to see the document to give you appropriate advice.

[dpick]

Hi this is now standard info sent out by most Creditors. My view is that while they MAY have complied with a s78(1) CCA 1974 request it does not in any way indicate that an enforceable credit agreement exists. This is why a lot of CAG member are now advising that members send a full data sar to the creditor that way the creditor has to send copies of all documents it holds. This was the way I found that all CRAP1 held for my credit card account was an application form without any of the prescribed terms.

 

dpick

[vimto88]

Thank you both for your responses - dont have access to a scanner so will type up what was said below . My initial letter to them was from a template from this site asking for a true copy of the agreement with the appropriate refs to Consumer credit act posted on 28.11.09

What they said in the letter was

'Thank you for your recent letter requesting copy documents for your account

You requested copies of the executed credit agreement and a statement of your account under section 78 Consumer Credit act 1974

Please find enclosed a copy of your credit agreement as requested. In accordance with section 78 of CCA 1974 and the CC ( Cancellation Notices and Copy documents) regulations 1983, this is your original agreement, and if any terms have been varied then the copy agreement will include the updated terms. In addition your personal details , the signature box, signature and date of signature have been omitted from the copy provided as permitted under regulation 3 of CCA ( Cancellation Notices and Copy documents) regulations 1983.

Your account is in default and the amount currently due and payable is £xxxxx

Under section 78 we are not required to provide a copy of the default notice and statement of default . However we can confirm that a statement of default was issued 9 October 2009

I trust this information will help with your enquiries etc etc

This was their letter and in addition I received a doc entitled

Terms of your Capital One Credit Card Agreement and it says

Thank you for your recent request . Please see overleaf for the current terms of your agreement with us.

For the rest of your terms and conditions, please see leaflet enclosed

If you have any further queries etc etc

The leaflet was a standard printed terms

So I havent got my actual application form sent to me with or without a signature etc showing so I have nothing that relates to the original agreement . I must have had the card about 8 years? Soory this will have taken up a bit of space on the website But I would be grateful to know what the next step should be , as it seems to me that they have not complied with my request . Many thanks

[vimto88]

sorry just want to stress that nothing 'original' was sent to me just current credit terms and no document that looked like an application form , with or without my details Thanks

[vimto88]

Thanks I will do that - when you found out your info - ie that the form didnt have any of the prescribed terms what did that actually mean - sorry to be a bit thick about this but just want to check so I can assess my situation properly

[maroondevo52]

Hi, vimto88.

 

I have merged your two threads on this subject and unapproved the duplicate thread starting post. It's easier for people to help when you use one thread on any one subject.

 

Thanks.

 

Scott.

[Pinky69]

It means that they do not have an enforceable agreement and that gives you 3 choices. You can either put the agreement into dispute and not pay them anything because they don't have an agreement OR you can use the fact that they don't have an agreement to negotiate payment at a rate that suits you OR you can negotiate a reduced settlement. The choice is yours. It isn't that simple until they accept the fact that the agreement is unenforceable so you may have to argue the toss with them for a while until they do.

[vimto88]

Thanks very much - that's great

I appreciate your helpful and prompt responses

[Josie8]

It doesn't mean that and the creditor may well be able to produce an enforceable agreement later - they just don't have to in order to comply with S.78 though what they need to do to comply will be decided by the manchester cases