uk debts but live in germany

[sunsential]

Hello and thank you for the existence of this forum!

 

I am in a simular situation, I have read a lot over the past few months but i am not getting very far in understanding.

 

Maybe you all can help, as this forum was the closest i got to my situation.

 

I am only 26years of age and had 14900gbp worth of debt which came together with 4loans all from NatWest and 1000gbp from capitol one.

I went into a debt management plan to pay 200gbp a month- but only for the loans. the credit card i still pay with 50gbp a month via direct debit.

I have moved to germany in may09. now, earning euro´s and not pounds and only earning 400euro´s a month (from april10 it will be 640 after tax) i am not able to make any more payments.

I was thinking of filing for bankcruptcy in the uk, but according to what i read i cannot do so as i have been outside the uk (within eu rule only!) for more than 3months. the uk court would simply refer me to the german court. bancruptcy in germany is a painful thing! a lot more strict than in the uk. there is a system in germany where the government has to know your address. I have let my debt management agency know that i moved to germany but they do not have the address. I have also not changed the address with NatWest or capitol one. i dont use tthe NatWest bankaccount to pay the debt management agency, but have opened a rbs account for such.like i say i cannot pay anymore and now with the wage i earn this would take me a life time.

 

i am confused with the abroad legal enforcement possibilty. as i read on a thread concerning someone living in canada and being chased by a firm called link, the european law enforcement only applies for tax owed to the governement is that right? if not how much would it cost uk to do en enforcement against me? i am very young to have my life screwed over perfectly. i have tried to get out of it. paid my loans for nearly 2years without fail. Then went to the debt management (which cost another 3000gbp for the fees they want for dealing with NatWest on my behalf. totals the debt to 17000 where i have paid one year in the debt management now).

 

Do you think they will chase me for that amount of debt in germany. what can happen? can i end up with more debt or even prison? ANY tips and solution possibilities are much appreciated! i dont know what to do anymore!!!!!

 

thanks The Direct Debit Guarantee • The Guarantee is offered by all Banks and Building Societies that take part in the Direct Debit Scheme. The efficiency and security of the Scheme is monitored and protected by your own Bank or Building Society.

• If the amounts to be paid or the payment dates change, we will notify you three working days in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed.

• If an error is made by us or by your Bank or Building Society, you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund from your branch of the amount paid.

• You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by writing your Bank or Building Society. Please also send a copy of your letter to us.

 

This is a term of your banking contract and you can sue on it.

[cerberusalert]

Even if you are living abroad, they can still come after you for a debt especially in the EU.

 

Some UK Debt Collection Companies may have Partner Companies in the EU. Any agreement regulated under the Consumer Credit act is only enforceable in a Britsh court.

 

The EU has agreed a procedure known as an EPO -European Payment Order which came into force in January 2009 and can be used to enforce collection of a UK debt without the CCJ. The European Payment Order is only available for cross-border cases. It allows for citizens and businesses to use a simple method to enforce uncontested payments.

 

A reciprocal agreement in the UK means a UK Court can enforce a CCJ using the legal system of the other country. If there is no such agreement in place, a creditor can sell a debt to an agency in the relevant country and debt recovery procedures will commence under the law of that land. A creditor may have their own office in that country, or relations with other credit companies in that area.

 

If a creditor has taken legal action on an account, the debt can be legally recoverable indefinitely. This means that someone could start a new life abroad and work hard for the assets they accumulated, only to find a few years down the line that a creditor has traced them. Everything they have worked for is put at risk and could be taken from them to repay their debt.

 

The European Payment Order is under PART 78 EUROPEAN ORDER FOR PAYMENT AND EUROPEAN SMALL CLAIMS PROCEDURES - CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES

 

Link here:

 

PART 78 - EUROPEAN ORDER FOR PAYMENT AND EUROPEAN SMALL CLAIMS PROCEDURES - Ministry of Justice

 

If the companies involved know where you are, and the amount owing is worth the effort, then you may have them coming after you using this route.

[sunsential]

thanks! i will read your link throughly in a moment. but looks like i have to face bankcruptcy in germany then?! thats gonna be a tough one

[palomino]

Interesting point : are your UK debts recognisable or even allowable in a German bankruptcy?

[cerberusalert]

Remember, any agreement regulated under the Consumer Credit act is only enforceable in a British court. Bank loans & credit cards etc are regulated under CCA 1974 which means they must have acquired a CCJ in the UK first & they cannot do that unless you are a UK resident. Sometimes they do manage to using the 'back-door' method whereby they have served papers at your last known UK address. If they have you can easily get them set-aside.

[sunsential]

Interesting point : are your UK debts recognisable or even allowable in a German bankruptcy?

 

i am not sure. according to what i read when i googled : "filing bancruptcy in uk from abroad" yes. As i am within the eu more than 3months, the uk court would apprently send me to the court of where i am resident now.

 

how do i know if 15000gbp is enough for them to chase me in germany? i cannot pay it no matter how much they chase me. i am just afraid that i will have life long debt.. which i actually already have looking at my wage for the next 3years it would take me over 10years to pay all back.

 

i am really confused as of what to do! i really didnt want to run. but what can i do if i cant file for bankcruptcy in germany.

 

thanks for the link.. but my god.. i need more than one dictionary with that. i must admit i dont understand much of it..

[sunsential]

Remember, any agreement regulated under the Consumer Credit act is only enforceable in a British court. Bank loans & credit cards etc are regulated under CCA 1974 which means they must have acquired a CCJ in the UK first & they cannot do that unless you are a UK resident. Sometimes they do manage to using the 'back-door' method whereby they have served papers at your last known UK address. If they have you can easily get them set-aside.

 

now thats exactly what i have been reading for months and EXACTLY why i am getting confused as i read that and then it says except germany. thats where the other european laws come in isnt it? my head is a ballon!

 

thank you soooo much guys! this is really brilliant help and fast help, too. when i have money again i will donate to keep this forum alive!

[sunsential]

to my whereabout and them knowing it: only my debtmangement agency knows that i live in germany but not where exactly. according to natwest, rbs and capitol one i am still at the old address. have read in other threads that i should at least change my address to all banks and credit card companies to c/o at my old address so no ccj can be issued.. shall i do that?

[sunsential]

here is a print out on the EPO

 

Application of the procedure in civil and commercial matters

The European order for payment procedure applies to civil and commercial matters in cross-border cases, whatever the nature of the court or tribunal. A "cross-border case" is one in which at least one of the parties is domiciled or habitually resident in a Member State other than the Member State of the court hearing the action. The Regulation applies to all Member States except Denmark, in conformity with the Protocol on the position of Denmark annexed to the Treaty on the European Union and the Treaty establishing the European Community.

The procedure does not extend to revenue, customs or administrative matters or the liability of the State for acts and omissions in the exercise of State authority ("acta iure imperii").

The following are also excluded:

• matrimonial property regimes;
  
• bankruptcy, proceedings relating to the winding-up of insolvent companies or other legal persons, judicial arrangements, compositions and analogous proceedings;
  
• social security;
  
• claims arising from non-contractual obligations, unless they have been the subject of an agreement between the parties or there has been an admission of debt or they relate to liquidated debts arising from joint ownership of property.
  

Does the second point of expetions mean something like my case? so that the epo couldnt be used upon against me. and as loans and credit cards are under the cca and no ccj was issued yet they wont be able to chase the money in germany?

I hope i am not too stupid for you guys. i feel that way though. its so hard to clearly understand it. normally i am not so daft..

[twofoot]

I've been there and done it for double your amount. They will threaten all and sundry but at the end of the day they'll do nothing. In my case I just ignored most, others I told them I was skint although I did tell them all where I was. Now SB and heard nowt for a couple of years but like I said they'll threaten everything they can think of.

[sunsential]

I've been there and done it for double your amount. They will threaten all and sundry but at the end of the day they'll do nothing. In my case I just ignored most, others I told them I was skint although I did tell them all where I was. Now SB and heard nowt for a couple of years but like I said they'll threaten everything they can think of.

Did you live in germany?

as it seems they cant issue a ccj as i am not resident in the uk..right?! i want to send a letter to the bank stating that i no longer live at my previous address and that i actually do not have a permant address at the moment. shall i give out my german address?

I read that it is enough if you change your previous address to c/o -my name- and then the ccj hasnt got a legal enforcement as c/o states that i dont live there but it is only a contact address. then i can say i have not had any letters from the bank when picking up my post every 6months there.

 

I am just wondering if they can get me in germany or not. the posts above with the eu enforcemnt of the other country you live in and the cca debts cannot be enforced outside uk is a little confunsing for me.

 

which one is it now? confused!!!!!

 

Thanks for all your help guys!

[jimbo45]

Hi all

Get a German Bank account and tell the UK agencies to F--K a Duck.

 

Don't give them your address either.

 

 

You CAN'T be chased by Bailiff's or other authorities for CIVIL debt outside the UK's (or England and Wales's ) Court jurisdiction.

 

You probably can be chased but their enforcement rights are ZERO.

 

There's a HUGE difference in getting a Court judgement and Enforcing it.

 

Criminal Fraud and other attempts at "Money Laundering" etc are a different matter as of course Criminal proceedings can be EU or even PLANET wide.

 

I'd get that German Bank account quickly as Credit Reference agencies do have a Pan European Database -- otherwise just ignore anything from the UK -- there's sweet F. All they can do.

 

Note of course that you'll never be able to get Credit again in the UK but I'm sure after getting into debt in the first place you won't want to get any more again.

 

Cheers

jimbo

[sunsential]

Hi all

Get a German Bank account and tell the UK agencies to F--K a Duck.

 

Don't give them your address either.

 

 

You CAN'T be chased by Bailiff's or other authorities for CIVIL debt outside the UK's (or England and Wales's ) Court jurisdiction.

 

You probably can be chased but their enforcement rights are ZERO.

 

There's a HUGE difference in getting a Court judgement and Enforcing it.

 

Criminal Fraud and other attempts at "Money Laundering" etc are a different matter as of course Criminal proceedings can be EU or even PLANET wide.

 

I'd get that German Bank account quickly as Credit Reference agencies do have a Pan European Database -- otherwise just ignore anything from the UK -- there's sweet F. All they can do.

 

Note of course that you'll never be able to get Credit again in the UK but I'm sure after getting into debt in the first place you won't want to get any more again.

 

Cheers

jimbo

 

thanks jimbo,

 

Got a german bank account. have made payments out of it though to my uk bank account which is an rbs account (My debts are owed to Natwest not Rbs so it isnt the same account) to keep on paying the debt management. but from this month onwards cant pay the minimum payment to the debt management anymore.

shall i at least change the uk address to c/o, so they cant issue a ccj in the first place or just let that be too?

[sunsential]

do you guys think a final settlement would help. if i say i have two options and that is to pay say 3000gbp of the 17k (probably more like 15k now with all the debt management payments) as final settlement or go bankcrupt (which i acctually cant as living in germany would mean very strict bankcruptcy orders of 7years and more paying off and hassle with them controling every step i make and not been able to save for a future car or even new bed?!)

 

would appreciate your opion on this!

 

thanks a lot. this forum is great help!!!

[sunsential]

as far as i understand.. as long as they havent issued a ccj they cannot pass it on to a german court. but they still have my uk address but i should midwhile be taken off the electrol role by my housemates - is that enough for proof that i am no longer resident in the uk? shall i maybe open a pobox for letter correspondance (which again shows them no longer in the country) and just ignore their letters?

[dannyboy660]

Ignore them.

 

We could procrastinate for hours about the 'ins and outs' and who owes whom, but the fact of the matter is you signed a contract under UK law while you were UK resident.

 

You are no longer UK resident or UK taxpayer.

 

Ignore them.

[sunsential]

Ignore them.

 

We could procrastinate for hours about the 'ins and outs' and who owes whom, but the fact of the matter is you signed a contract under UK law while you were UK resident.

 

You are no longer UK resident or UK taxpayer.

 

Ignore them.

 

 

Thankyou

 

Can it not be made a criminal offence if i do not forward a new non uk address or pobox- which would then mean they can use the european enforcement law? Also would a pobox be sufficient for them to see (and proof for myself to them) that they know i am outside uk?

[jimbo45]

Hi there.

 

Debt is a CIVIL matter not a Criminal matter -- unless there is deliberate Fraud involved and in this case Fraud doesn't look a likely candidate.

 

I'd just ignore all communication with them.

 

They can try and get a German Court judgement but I think they've probably got about as much chance of getting anywhere with that as setting up a Jovian Bank on the surface of Jupiter.

 

Don't give them your address either -- any mail just get it returned as "Gone away" or "Not at this address" or just bin it.

 

 

Even if you DO come back to the UK -- what can they do -- no property so no Charging order, no assets - not worth Bankruptcy - it will cost them.

 

The only possible downside is the Credit reference -- but if you aren't taking out credit again who cares a toss.

 

Cheers

jimbo

[hamaster]

Hello sunsential,

 

I am in a similar position. Moved out of UK in 2008 with about 4000 pounds in a loan outstanding. I hear that a DCA (AIC) started chasing me on my old adress, they dont have my new one abroad. I also dont live in my home country but somewhere else in the EU.

 

What does anyone her rckon, should I contact them about it or just leave it? I am also worried about the European Payment Order.

 

Thanks to you all in advance

[cerberusalert]

Thread moved to the Overseas debt Forum

[cerberusalert]

Have a read through http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/overseas-debt-overseas-account/250889-can-i-sued-overseas.html

[penmarine]

Ignore them.

 

We could procrastinate for hours about the 'ins and outs' and who owes whom, but the fact of the matter is you signed a contract under UK law while you were UK resident.

 

You are no longer UK resident or UK taxpayer.

 

 

Ignore them.

 

Hi DB just reading about no longer being a UK resident or UK taxpayer. I'm not technically a UK resident but I am a UK taxpayer, would this make a difference to DCAs chasing me for loan/credit card debit? Cheers PM

[cerberusalert]

I am a UK taxpayer, would this make a difference to DCAs chasing me for loan/credit card debit?

No, as much as DCAs would like they do not have access to tax records.

[horus]

See your old account is with Natwest and your new account is with RBS - Natwest are part of the RBS group - would they share records?