Ebay/Paypal - Item Not Arrived

[Heckler]

I purchased a Wii with sports resort pack of ebay on the 7th Dec, Seller marked it as dispatched on the 8th.

 

Auction claimed it would be sent 1st class recorded, so I waited for the knock at the door so I could sign for it.

 

No knock came all week, and yesterday (10th) I asked for the tracking number, no response... so today I asked once more pointing out the the auction clearly said 1st class recorded, which means there is a tracking number.

 

Get a reply late on Friday night saying they sent it by tuffnells couriers, and gave me a tracking number, that I can't check without their account number... and telling me they have proof of delivery with a signature for the 9th Dec.

 

I can say with 200% certainty, that this signature is not mine... That I was home all day on the 9th and no one called. I received no 'we called to deliver' card, and my neighbours on both sides (one of whom is normally at home).. they confirm no one left it with them, and they never saw any delivery van. I've checked the times they were home and some one was in, with a clear view out the front windows for 90% of the working day... and they're a nosy lot who usually know what's going on.

 

I've emailed the seller back, and told them I received no delivery and the signature could not be mine. I asked for a copy of the signature so I could prove it's not mine. I also told them that as they changed the details of the auction after it was bought and paid for, and sent it via an alternative method... that was not my problem. I also gave them until monday to get my paid for item in the post to me as they're really gonna ruin xmas otherwise.

 

I know I can make a complaint through ebay/paypal... but the last time I got ripped of on ebay over some workbenches paypal refused to reimburse me unless I filed a crime report with the police... WTF, how is it my problem that the seller sent 1 item when it was supposed to be 2, even when I signed for it as incomplete.

 

I have made sure that my paypal account is kept empty now, so that all payments go via direct debit... So I have the option to recover via the DD gaurantee... but that would leave my PP account in negative and I use the account for membership fees for the car owners club I run in my spare time... and it's renewal time for members at the beginning of Jan... Which could potentially screw over the club as paypal steals those fees towards that neg balance.

 

I've praying that the seller is reasonable and honest... but I'm a cynic and expect the worst to happen when it comes to ebayers.

 

Any advice on the best steps to take would be appreciated.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Heckler

[andydd]

I purchased a Wii with sports resort pack of ebay on the 7th Dec, Seller marked it as dispatched on the 8th.

 

Auction claimed it would be sent 1st class recorded, so I waited for the knock at the door so I could sign for it.

 

No knock came all week, and yesterday (10th) I asked for the tracking number, no response... so today I asked once more pointing out the the auction clearly said 1st class recorded, which means there is a tracking number.

 

Get a reply late on Friday night saying they sent it by tuffnells couriers, and gave me a tracking number, that I can't check without their account number... and telling me they have proof of delivery with a signature for the 9th Dec.

 

I can say with 200% certainty, that this signature is not mine... That I was home all day on the 9th and no one called. I received no 'we called to deliver' card, and my neighbours on both sides (one of whom is normally at home).. they confirm no one left it with them, and they never saw any delivery van. I've checked the times they were home and some one was in, with a clear view out the front windows for 90% of the working day... and they're a nosy lot who usually know what's going on.

 

I've emailed the seller back, and told them I received no delivery and the signature could not be mine. I asked for a copy of the signature so I could prove it's not mine. I also told them that as they changed the details of the auction after it was bought and paid for, and sent it via an alternative method... that was not my problem. I also gave them until monday to get my paid for item in the post to me as they're really gonna ruin xmas otherwise.

 

I know I can make a complaint through ebay/paypal... but the last time I got ripped of on ebay over some workbenches paypal refused to reimburse me unless I filed a crime report with the police... WTF, how is it my problem that the seller sent 1 item when it was supposed to be 2, even when I signed for it as incomplete.

 

I have made sure that my paypal account is kept empty now, so that all payments go via direct debit... So I have the option to recover via the DD gaurantee... but that would leave my PP account in negative and I use the account for membership fees for the car owners club I run in my spare time... and it's renewal time for members at the beginning of Jan... Which could potentially screw over the club as paypal steals those fees towards that neg balance.

 

I've praying that the seller is reasonable and honest... but I'm a cynic and expect the worst to happen when it comes to ebayers.

 

Any advice on the best steps to take would be appreciated.

 

Surely your best bet is the ebay/paypal claims procedure. I know it can be a pain but thats what its there for.

 

I'm in a similar situation myself for a hard drive that didnt arrive, the seller has provided Paypal with a RM tracking number but its an invalid code (too many digits) and I'm still waiting for PP to decide ther outcome.

 

Start an Ebay/PP complaint and see what happens, it maybe that PP say he has proof of delivery but question them further if this is the case, PP will often change their mind (esp. to favour buyers) if pushed.

 

The only other option would be to start court action, but it would be to your benefit to try Ebay/PP first.

 

Andy

[Heckler]

Yeah... just thought some one might have some advice as paypal don't seem to use logic when deciding these things, and the last time the seller claimed they sent two, when I got one and paypal told me it was my responsibility to file a complaint with the police and unless I did they find in favour of the seller... The police just looked at me with a 'WTF' when I spoke to them... So seller got away with it and I'm out of pocket.

 

So this time... if it goes against me, DD refund time and paypal can go f*ck themselves. Even if it means my members have to start sending cheques... I only ever get taken once, never again.

[andydd]

Yeah... just thought some one might have some advice as paypal don't seem to use logic when deciding these things, and the last time the seller claimed they sent two, when I got one and paypal told me it was my responsibility to file a complaint with the police and unless I did they find in favour of the seller... The police just looked at me with a 'WTF' when I spoke to them... So seller got away with it and I'm out of pocket.

 

So this time... if it goes against me, DD refund time and paypal can go f*ck themselves. Even if it means my members have to start sending cheques... I only ever get taken once, never again.

 

Ha..your post could of been written by me, I know PP show no logic at times, Ive just had my account restored after a PP dispute. I'm now on my 3rd PP account and have been chased by two DCA's for allegded PP debts (where I was the victim of a fraud).

 

Im sure you are aware of this but be very careful when buying selling small/high price goods such as Wii's, xboxes, laptops, phones, etc as thats where most of the scams occur, (mine involved a Sony Q1 mini PC I was selling).

 

Good to see that you too use sense and dont leave cards/bank accounts (with money in) attached to your PP account.

 

Hope PP dispute does well, they do have a bias towards buyers so should be ok.

 

Andy

[Heckler]

Well, bank have reversed the DD so money will be back in my account within 48hrs. Seller has provided a jpeg of the proof of delivery, that has a fake signature on it.

 

I know it's fake for several reasons

 

1: I didn't sign for it

2: I was home on the day of delivery, aside from perhaps 30mins when I popped to the shops in the afternoon (yet delivery was alleged to be at 10am).

3: I use an anagram of my real name for all ebay purchases, I do in fact use various anagrams of my name with different online purchases. I do this for several reasons one of which is that when/if I start getting spam/[problem] emails, calls or what ever... I can identify where the information originated.

4: The signature on the pod, is of the anagram name, not my real name (the name actually registered with paypal and ebay).. just the name that's given to sellers.

 

So even though I'm getting my money back, paypal could still pursue me for the debt if they find in favour of the seller... who has provided a copy of the same pod to paypal... and know paypal, that is normally enough to satisfy them.

 

 

I have made the complaint to the police, all the details have been logged and I have the crime reference number. Now.. the pod could be a fake, but a simple check with the courier will answer that one.

 

So, I'm starting to wonder if the seller is an honest one... and the problem is with the courier... I'm one of those people who likes to try and think of every possible circumstance that could have happened.. call it pedantic, call it a little obsessive... until I know the facts... it's gonna bug me like mad.

 

So here's a few scenarios I came up with.

 

1: Courier collects, it goes through the distribution centre onto the delivery van. Delivery man, steals it, flogs it and fakes a pod... [stupid because of the incorrect name signed]

2: Courier calls, I don't hear the door because I'm in the garden, in the bath or taking a sh*t. Courier leaves parcel with a neighbour who thinks.. I'll keep it. [Possible as I don't entirely trust the people one side, and the other side are pensioners and really sweet.]

3: Courier calls, I don't hear the door for whatever reason, courier can't be arsed to come back later or leave a we called card, so fakes a signature and leaves the parcel by the front door... and it's promptly stolen by someone who saw them leave it, or even an opportunist f*cktard passing by.

4: The seller is a [EDIT], the pod is a fake and I hope they get arrested for it.

 

I honestly can't decide which one of those is the most likely... and I'm sure there are far more creative ones I could come up with, aliens stole it, the cat next door buried it... trying to stay optimistic now that I am at least getting my money back.

 

 

If it turns out that the delivery courier is responsible (1 or 3) then they deserve to be fired and arrested for 1: and fired for 3:

 

If it's 2: then I will certainly be pressing charges, may not make any friends doing so.. but at least the rest of my neighbours will have their eyes opened to the activities of their neighbours, and know that I won't take any crap.

 

 

As for the seller, I always check feedback ratings and the types of items sold, if they've got loads of small cheap items and then suddenly large expensive ones... it raises a red flag. If there are negs, I always look for them and read what's been written, sometimes you can spot an arsey buyer being a Piers Morgan rather than having a genuine complaint.

 

I purchased 3 nintendo items all within 30 mins on the 7th, one of the others has arrived as promised by first class post and the 3rd is on it's way from Hong Kong and could be here at any time in the next week or two... Will give it until 1st Jan before filing not received... but it was a cheap item (£8 inc delivery) so not overly concerned.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Heckler

[Heckler]

Anyone with a legal background who can answer a few questions please?

 

 

Am I right in thinking that the contract formed at the point of sale (buy it now auction, inc royal mail 1st class recorded delivery) is between myself and the seller.

 

Am I also correct thinking that the decision by the seller to use an alternate delivery method (and not inform me) breaches that contract?

 

Am I in any way responsible for the contract between the seller and the courier regarding delivery (as they are trying to claim).

 

Does the fact they have a fake (either fake sig or fake POD) 'proof of delivery' slip absolve them of their responsibility to supply the item sold to me, or absolve them of my right to a refund?

 

 

I don't have a full address for the company, but having googled the sellers names based on paypal registered name and email name (appears to be a Mr & Mrs), and on references to husband/wife in emails... and also from the name of the collection address/account number... I've located what appears to be either the Males place of work, or even possibly his company... I've also found out that he likes to play golf and enter tournaments... gotta love google.

 

I've passed everything to the police, now waiting for them to ask for copies of the emails, and pod.

 

Just need to know exactly what steps can/should be taken to convince them I know exactly where I stand in legal terms, and what action can be taken against them... perhaps if they know I'm clued up on my rights and prepared to back it up with legal action... they might back down and refund me... they've already admitted they've withdrawn the funds from paypal so they can't be taken back.. and are still trying to claim they're out of pocket... which is complete twoddle as they already have my money.

[Heckler]

As expected, paypal have decided that the pod with the fake signature is enough to exonerate the seller.

 

Bunch of f**King C**ts

[Heckler]

Does anyone have any experience in tracking down people... already discovered a few things about them... including facebook accounts, and a business that one is a director of... The husband is also a keen golfer.

 

But phone number and address would be helpful so I can start on the court docs to sue them with.

[hightail]

Pull their details through ebay. As you have bought something from them ebay will make their phone number and address available to you.

[Heckler]

Well... I had a shock on Friday.

 

I appealed the ludicrous decision and won... I gave them all the crime ref information from the police, pointed out that the signature on the pod was a fake, and in the wrong name. Once more pointed out that the seller breached the contract by changing postage type.

 

The police had also been given ebay/paypal info and had probably requested seller details already.

 

So paypal refunded my money, not heard back from the seller yet as I asked if they had any further info from the courier.

 

I don't know if it helped... but I also mentioned to paypal that I was a member here and how helpful you were at defeating paypal.. and that paypal always seemed to back down when legal action was taken... perhaps because they don't want a precedent to be set in court that others can then use.

 

I had some help from another forum who defeated an ebay [EDIT] a few years ago... using some advice from there I tracked down the sellers address (ebay don't give it you, just the town and phone number), their facebook accounts, ages, dates of birth and even the fact the husband likes to play golf.

 

Gotta love what you can find on the internet... and this is why I guard my privacy like a hawk and never disclose private info in public places.

 

So money back = Me Happy and Xmas goes ahead as planned.

[2ltr16valve]

Well... I had a shock on Friday.

 

I appealed the ludicrous decision and won... I gave them all the crime ref information from the police, pointed out that the signature on the pod was a fake, and in the wrong name. Once more pointed out that the seller breached the contract by changing postage type.

 

The police had also been given ebay/paypal info and had probably requested seller details already.

 

So paypal refunded my money, not heard back from the seller yet as I asked if they had any further info from the courier.

 

I don't know if it helped... but I also mentioned to paypal that I was a member here and how helpful you were at defeating paypal.. and that paypal always seemed to back down when legal action was taken... perhaps because they don't want a precedent to be set in court that others can then use.

 

I had some help from another forum who defeated an ebay [EDIT] a few years ago... using some advice from there I tracked down the sellers address (ebay don't give it you, just the town and phone number), their facebook accounts, ages, dates of birth and even the fact the husband likes to play golf.

 

Gotta love what you can find on the internet... and this is why I guard my privacy like a hawk and never disclose private info in public places.

 

So money back = Me Happy and Xmas goes ahead as planned.

 

 

Glad you got a good result mate

[Heckler]

I am still having massive problems with paypal and their f*cking incompetence.

 

 

 

So they found in favour of the seller originally... so they were notified I was recovering the funds through my bank under the DD guarantee.

 

They ignore this fact, and then suddenly reverse their decision after the police get involved.

 

Except they don't actually tell me right away that the funds have been returned... and I buy something for £5.95 of ebay... expecting this to come out of my bank as usual.

 

Only they take this £5.95 from my balance which is in credit because of the refund... which when the DD fails (as they already knew it would) puts me into a £5.95 neg balance.

 

Then the problems really begin.

 

They restrict my account

They want me to change my password (which I do)

They want me to change my security questions (which I do)

They want me to confirm the bank account that has already been confirmed (which I try to do) but can't confirm something that already exists and has already been confirmed... Fun so far.

They want me to add a DD to this bank account so they can withdrawn funds (which I try to do) except no DD can be set up on this bank account because one already exists.

 

 

Cue numerous complaints over the last couple of weeks which has seen them remove the DD and my bank account numerous times, forcing me to add them again... and they keep trying to tell me they can't confirm the bank account as it doesn't exist... which it does as I've been using it for the last 15 years.

 

Each time I complain... they delete all the details from my paypal account and I cannot get this limited restriction lifted because of their stupidity and incompetence.

 

I am seriously considering going back to my bank and disputing every single DD and going back as far as I can... I don't have a lot of money in my paypal account, but it's my money and I've had to suspend payments through my little website because of it... which is causing problems for my members who want to renew their yearly membership... and new members can't join.

 

I've had enough of their dumb idiotic incompetence... how they can fail this badly is just beyond belief.

 

 

Next step will have to be court action I guess.

 

 

Then it's time to fight Amazon who are just as incompetent.

[andydd]

I am still having massive problems with paypal and their f*cking incompetence.

 

 

 

So they found in favour of the seller originally... so they were notified I was recovering the funds through my bank under the DD guarantee.

 

They ignore this fact, and then suddenly reverse their decision after the police get involved.

 

Except they don't actually tell me right away that the funds have been returned... and I buy something for £5.95 of ebay... expecting this to come out of my bank as usual.

 

Only they take this £5.95 from my balance which is in credit because of the refund... which when the DD fails (as they already knew it would) puts me into a £5.95 neg balance.

 

Then the problems really begin.

 

They restrict my account

They want me to change my password (which I do)

They want me to change my security questions (which I do)

They want me to confirm the bank account that has already been confirmed (which I try to do) but can't confirm something that already exists and has already been confirmed... Fun so far.

They want me to add a DD to this bank account so they can withdrawn funds (which I try to do) except no DD can be set up on this bank account because one already exists.

 

 

Cue numerous complaints over the last couple of weeks which has seen them remove the DD and my bank account numerous times, forcing me to add them again... and they keep trying to tell me they can't confirm the bank account as it doesn't exist... which it does as I've been using it for the last 15 years.

 

Each time I complain... they delete all the details from my paypal account and I cannot get this limited restriction lifted because of their stupidity and incompetence.

 

I am seriously considering going back to my bank and disputing every single DD and going back as far as I can... I don't have a lot of money in my paypal account, but it's my money and I've had to suspend payments through my little website because of it... which is causing problems for my members who want to renew their yearly membership... and new members can't join.

 

I've had enough of their dumb idiotic incompetence... how they can fail this badly is just beyond belief.

 

 

AlL of this pretty much replicates my experience of paypal, i suggested they may change their decision on appeal ! ive had the same problems with adding bank accounts and verification etc. it is rather worrying that they dont appear to know what they are doing half the time !

[Heckler]

Well today they restore my account after I threaten legal action again, and give them the link to these forums and suggest they do a search on paypal cases.

 

I should just resort to that in the first instance and send them links to here... that seems to be the second time they've caved when I've threatened legal action.

 

Oddly enough, my bank account remains unverified in spite of their claims the restrictions cannot be lifted until it is... but this morning all restrictions have been lifted.

 

I kinda wanted them to refuse so I could take court action... some one needs to pursue it to it's conclusion and get a legal precedent set, so that others can really start taking them to task.