Another Summons thread

[WWS]

A few days ago I received a Summons for fare owed £7.40 from June.

 

This is Northern Rail.

 

At the time of the alleged offence, I lost my return ticket. As I know its an offence to travel without ticket, I went to the station at Manchester Victoria and explained the situation. I was then presented to the train conductor who presented me with a slip thing - (unpaid fare notice?) before I boarded the train and said I had to present my ticket or pay within 7 days.

 

The following day I found my ticket and presented it at my destination station (Hough Green) with the slip I received.

 

Two weeks later I got a reminder - I duly called Northern and explained - they advised that nothing had been received.

 

6 weeks after that, another letter claning £77.40 as a fine.

 

Again I called - this time to complain - I also wrote - and received the standard shrugged shoulder response to the phone call "not received anything - your responsibility" - and no response at all from the letter.

 

2 days ago, summons received. The statement of facts states that the conductor "had occasion to speak to..." on the train. This is not correct - I sorted the problem before I got on, was open and honest throughout, and presented my ticket the following day at the destination station.

 

At the time, I believed that as I had presented my ticket, I had no need to keep the receipt given to me by the staff at Hough Green, so like a numpty, I binned it.

 

Now I face a criminal record, £100+ of costs and a day in court.

 

Naturally Ive pleaded not guilty and have chosen to go to court. Can anyone offer any advice on all this? Thanks in advance!

[Consumer dude]

At the time you presented your return ticket at the destination station, was you then given a receipt for doing so ?

[Old-CodJA]

A few days ago I received a Summons for fare owed £7.40 from June.

 

This is Northern Rail.

 

At the time of the alleged offence, I lost my return ticket. As I know its an offence to travel without ticket, I went to the station at Manchester Victoria and explained the situation. I was then presented to the train conductor who presented me with a slip thing - (unpaid fare notice?) before I boarded the train and said I had to present my ticket or pay within 7 days.

 

The following day I found my ticket and presented it at my destination station (Hough Green) with the slip I received.

 

Two weeks later I got a reminder - I duly called Northern and explained - they advised that nothing had been received.

 

6 weeks after that, another letter claning £77.40 as a fine.

 

Again I called - this time to complain - I also wrote - and received the standard shrugged shoulder response to the phone call "not received anything - your responsibility" - and no response at all from the letter.

 

2 days ago, summons received. The statement of facts states that the conductor "had occasion to speak to..." on the train. This is not correct - I sorted the problem before I got on, was open and honest throughout, and presented my ticket the following day at the destination station.

 

At the time, I believed that as I had presented my ticket, I had no need to keep the receipt given to me by the staff at Hough Green, so like a numpty, I binned it.

 

Now I face a criminal record, £100+ of costs and a day in court.

 

Naturally Ive pleaded not guilty and have chosen to go to court. Can anyone offer any advice on all this? Thanks in advance!

 

Firstly, I have to ask what is the actual charge alleged on the Summons?

 

You say that you presented the ticket along with the slip at your local station.

 

What did you do with the ticket after that??

[WWS]

Firstly, I have to ask what is the actual charge alleged on the Summons?

 

You say that you presented the ticket along with the slip at your local station.

 

What did you do with the ticket after that??

 

Im sorry I dont have the exact wording with me, but its along the lines of intentionally travelling on the railways without fare or intention to pay.

 

The ticket was presented at the station. They gave me a receipt for it and kept it. My thinking is that they send it to wherever these things get processed. The receipt I had, but as I say, thinking that I needed take no further action (mistake) I binned it.

[Old-CodJA]

Im sorry I dont have the exact wording with me, but its along the lines of intentionally travelling on the railways without fare or intention to pay.

 

The ticket was presented at the station. They gave me a receipt for it and kept it. My thinking is that they send it to wherever these things get processed. The receipt I had, but as I say, thinking that I needed take no further action (mistake) I binned it.

 

The wording of the charge will be important. If as you seem to suggest, you have been charged with:

 

"did travel on the railway without a valid ticket showing that he had previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof" contrary to Section 5.3.a of the Regulation of Railways Act (1889)

 

you will have to show proof that you had previously paid the fare due (the ticket) and your claim that you had presented evidence to the booking office will be considered by the Magistrates.

 

 

Alternatively, if the charge is:

 

"did fail to show on demand a valid rail ticket" contray to National Railways Byelaw 18.1 (2005)

 

I think it unlikely that your 'not-guilty' plea will succeed. The offence is 'fail to show'.

[WWS]

Thanks for the advice.

 

Does the fact that I was entirely upfront regarding all this and was permitted to travel before boarding not work in my favour here? If I intended to avoid (5.3.a), why would I tell someone before boarding.

 

Further to the 18.1 comment, at no point was a ticket "demanded" - I openly admitted I didnt have one.

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks for the advice.

 

Does the fact that I was entirely upfront regarding all this and was permitted to travel before boarding not work in my favour here?

 

It would if there was any evidence to show that you had addressed the Unpaid Fare Notice within the appeal period allowed

 

This is where it will be 'your word against their evidence' I'm afraid

 

You may get a sympathetic Bench, but if not you may be unlucky.

[WWS]

Sorry - I just edited my post to embellish on what I am getting at!

[Old-CodJA]

As I said, the decision will be up to the Magistrates

 

By your own admission, you do not have any evidence that you held a valid ticket at any time, which you can show to the Court.

 

The rail company will have their evidence that you did travel. The Unpaid Fare Notice will show the reason why it was issued. For example: 'No ticket'. they will also have the evidence of their written demands for payment.

 

You will need to convince the Magistrates that you had a valid ticket, which you had lost (in which case you didn't have a valid ticket) and also evidence your claim that you were permitted to board the train without a ticket by an authorised person.

 

What is written on the Unpaid Fare Notice will be of key importance here.

 

My reference to Byelaw 18 was to illustrate how important it is that you make clear exactly what you have been charged with when asking for an answer to what might be the outcome of the case.

[WWS]

Thanks again for your advice. Evidently I'm looking for a sympathetic bench.

 

The fact that I have no previous record (police, court or other wise) may well help. As will bank statements showing that I have paid for tickets on my card before and after this event, as regularly as clockwork. It just so happens that I paid with cash that day, which doesn't help, but Im thinking reasonable doubt and the fact that the witness statement from the conductor appears to be a generic statement issued in all cases and doesnt show the ACTUAL facts of the case (this I intend to challenge vigorously).

 

Perfect previous record. Evidence of paying diligently before and after. Evidence that the conductor actually has no clue of the event in question. The fact that I was pro-active in explaining, rather than getting on and crossing my fingers.

 

Could be interesting this one.

[Old-CodJA]

Evidence that the conductor actually has no clue of the event in question. The fact that I was pro-active in explaining, rather than getting on and crossing my fingers.

 

Could be interesting this one.

 

What evidence do you have that the inspector didn't have a clue?

 

Don't confuse your belief with evidence. What do you believe has been omitted from the statement that is material to the offence alleged?

 

You are right, you are looking for a sympathetic Bench

 

Good luck

[WWS]

What evidence do you have that the inspector didn't have a clue?

 

Don't confuse your belief with evidence.

 

You are right, you are looking for a sympathetic Bench

 

Good luck

 

Well in fact no evidence whatsoever.

 

However, the witness statement from the conductor shows a completely different version of events.

 

I intend to advise of the correct version.

 

This is then word versus word. As the TOC can only include as evidence the witness statements that they have submitted and (according to the Court documents I have) nothing else, I should be acquitted as innocent through reasonable doubt and the fact that I am not PROVEN guilty of 5.3.a (I didnt intentionally avoid - I was up front)or 18.1 (nobody DEMANDED or even REQUESTED a ticket from me to travel on that day).

 

If no further evidence can be presented (Unpaid notice/letters etc), I dont see how I can be found guilty with the evidence supplied.

[SRPO]

WWS you have a PM

[Old-CodJA]

Well in fact no evidence whatsoever.

 

However, the witness statement from the conductor shows a completely different version of events.

 

I intend to advise of the correct version.

 

This is then word versus word. As the TOC can only include as evidence the witness statements that they have submitted and (according to the Court documents I have) nothing else, I should be acquitted as innocent through reasonable doubt and the fact that I am not PROVEN guilty of 5.3.a (I didnt intentionally avoid - I was up front)or 18.1 (nobody DEMANDED or even REQUESTED a ticket from me to travel on that day).

 

If no further evidence can be presented (Unpaid notice/letters etc), I dont see how I can be found guilty with the evidence supplied.

 

I'm sure that SRPO will have given you sound advice by PM and my comments are also intended to be helpful to you, not antagonistic in any sense.

 

I have posted openly in the hope that the responses may also help someone else in due course

 

It may be that you have misunderstood what those Court papers say.

 

I believe that you are referring to the notice which states that the prosecution can only refer to the evidence (witness statements) already submitted and this is correct if the defendant enters a guilty plea and does not attend Court

 

However, if a 'not guilty' plea is entered, then a trial becomes necessary.

 

A date will be set for the trial and the TOC will then bring all of their evidence to Court, including the staff member who made out the original report and any other staff who may have been involved. He or she will give their evidence on oath. Having given their evidence and having been questioned by the prosecutor, the witness may be cross-examined by you (or your legal representative if you have one)

 

You will then be given an opportunity to go on to the witness stand and to give your version of events on oath and if you do so, the prosecutor will be free to question you about all aspects of the matter including any reminder letters.

 

If a defendant chooses not to go into the witness box and thereby avoids being questioned about their plea, the Magistrates may draw whatever conclusion that they see fit from the defendant's silence.

 

I hope that helps, I'm not saying that you are wrong in pleading 'not guilty', I am trying to ensure that you understand the whole process.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello SRPO!

 

WWS you have a PM

 

Danger Will Robinson...WWS works for a bank's Debt Collection department.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[photoman]

Hi WWS,

 

For the purposes of comparison, I shall post the response you should now expect from Northern Rail regards your current issues; demonstrating an equally ignorant, blinkered and arrogant attitude you believe Barclays have a right to use.

 

You state elsewhere regards Barclays bank charges:

 

I work in Barclays Collections

 

You will find that shortly the bank will begin writing to all customers who made complaints regarding the unfair charging case. From information I have, Barclays will deal with these on an individual basis, but most are likely to be advised that the charges are fair and no refund will be due.

 

SAR is a good way of finding out what you've been charged, but will not get you anything back unless the circumstances are different from the standard "I think the charges are unfair"

 

What you should have done (knowing that no money was going into the account) was cancelled the direct debits coming out. The bank advises you everytime one fails. It is your responsibilty to either service them or cancel them, you cant expect the bank to pay them without funds in your account.

 

What you should now do is call either your Business Account Manager or Barclays Collections and arrange to pay back the debt over a period. Barclays will be happy to split the payment over 6 months to get your account back to order.

 

If you do nothing you will eventually lose your overdraft facility and be liable for the whole debt at once.

 

Hope this helps

 

So, taking your OWN reasoning, and applying it to your situation, this is the response you should now expect and concede to.

 

"You will find that shortly Northern Rail will begin writing to all customers who made complaints regarding the unfair penalty charges.

From information I have, Northern Rail will deal with these on an individual basis, but most are likely to be advised that the charges are fair and no refund will be due.

 

SAR is a good way of finding out what you've been charged, but will not get you anything back unless the circumstances are different from the standard "I think the charges are unfair"

 

What you should have done (knowing that you had no ticket) was not taken the journey, or bought another ticket. Northern Rail advises you every-time you are fined. It is your responsibilty to either buy a ticket, or not take the journey, you cant expect the Northern Rail to allow you to travel for free.

 

What you should now do is call Northern Rail or their debt collectors and arrange to pay back the debt over a period. Northern Rail will be happy to split the payment over 6 months to get your account back to order.

 

If you do nothing they will take you to court, and you will be liable for the whole debt at once.

 

Hope this helps"

Edited December 13, 2009 by photoman

[MARTIN3030]

well said PM.

 

Our Collections officer certainly appears to have had a memory loss.

[photoman]

SHOE ON THE OTHER FOOT !!

[MARTIN3030]

Yes....let the train take the strain;)

 

Wonder if the correspondence will be done Inter City ?

What makes a person guilty of having no ticket can be down to many things-problems in life could have caused a routine to go off the rails?

 

We should be careful to give a sympathetic ear as opposed to being A choo sers.

 

It could be seen as VIRGIN on the hostile side to attempt to take sides here.

 

But reading between the LINES theres a few things need answers.

 

Theres no real point in making a locomotion when its pretty clear cut.

 

At the end of the day,these things need a clear timetable to define an exit strategy.

 

Ps....what times the next one to Churchill Place ?

[SRPO]

Hello SRPO!

 

 

 

Danger Will Robinson...WWS works for a bank's Debt Collection department.

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Thanks for the concern, but im 'the enemy' here too.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Thanks for the concern, but im 'the enemy' here too.

 

Many thanks for being honest. That's unusual in your line of work.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[SRPO]

Which line of work would that be.....?

[banker_rhymes_with]

Which line of work would that be.....?

You've already answered your own question...

 

'the enemy'

Cheers,

BRW

[SRPO]

Maybe you should stick to banking threads buddy.

[MARTIN3030]

SRPO if its no problem to answer-maybe you can say what you do-and explain your original comment which said you are the enemy too ????