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PCN on windscreen in rain, vulture didn't seal baggie properly, ticket illegible

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Hey,

 

I received a parking ticket the other day, I was making a collection from hsbc for work, pulled up outside with my hazards on, so wet I didn't see the no loading sign (tiny! and hidden away).

 

Got back to the van within 5 minutes and the vulture had got me already!

 

BUT... He hadn't sealed it properly, there was part of the ticket protruding from the waterproof thing, which stopped it from sealing and it was full of water.

 

I took photos of it with my camera phone before opening.

 

I opened it and the ink on the ticket had run a bit plus the paper was falling to pieces... It made the PCN number and my vehicle reg illegible.

 

Can I get out of this one because of his mistake? Or am I going to have to call them up and get the details to pay it?

 

Cheers!

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I doubt that's going to win you an appeal. I think what matters is that you are served with a PCN which complies with the statutory format. What happens after it's served is irrelevant to its validity. (It is served when it is attached to the windscreen. It was damaged after that.)

 

Having said that, it's not simply a question of is it invalid or do I pay.

 

You have a right of appeal. Inadequate signage would be grounds for appeal, so give it a try.

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If you appeal and lose, you won;t get the benefit of a discount for prompt payment. The signs may have been awkwardly placed, however they could argue that the location was learly one where restrictions applied, and it fell on you to discover what they were. It might be easier to take the discount. The fact the bag wasn't sealed won't assist in providing a valuable or exploitable loophole.

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If you appeal and lose, you won;t get the benefit of a discount for prompt payment.

 

That's not the case if the OP appeals within the discounted time period. They will hold the charge at the discounted rate and if the appeal is rejected, he can still pay that reduced amount.

 

they could argue that the location was learly one where restrictions applied, and it fell on you to discover what they were.

 

Yes they could take that line. Or they might not. Only one way to find out...

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That's not the case if the OP appeals within the discounted time period....

 

Afraid not. I'm using the correct terms. You can ONLY appeal to the relevant appeals body. What YOU mean is 'make a Representation' which is different. You cannot appeal twice - only once.

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Afraid not. I'm using the correct terms. You can ONLY appeal to the relevant appeals body. What YOU mean is 'make a Representation' which is different. You cannot appeal twice - only once.

 

You can appeal twice once against the PCN and then against the notice of rejection! ;)

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As you're English, I thought you might notice the difference.

 

In the first instance, you do not appeal - you make a REPRESENTATION. If you want to call it an appeal, then this confuses the issue with the next stage, should your REPRESENTATION be rejected. If this is the case, then you have to APPEAL their rejection of your representation.

 

You cannot 'appeal' twice.

 

(Accuracy, is important as it causes confusion if the wrong terms are used).

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"As you're English, I thought you might notice the difference"

 

Buzby - please refrain from using discriminatory comments.


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Care to elucidate?

 

Or are you unsure what 'discriminatory' actually means?

 

I'm pointing out (as English isn't my first language) that I would have thought the meaning of what was said in posting #5 is crystal clear. It was to me.

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As you're English, I thought you might notice the difference.

 

In the first instance, you do not appeal - you make a REPRESENTATION. If you want to call it an appeal, then this confuses the issue with the next stage, should your REPRESENTATION be rejected. If this is the case, then you have to APPEAL their rejection of your representation.

 

You cannot 'appeal' twice.

 

(Accuracy, is important as it causes confusion if the wrong terms are used).

 

If accuracy was the aim why did you suggest the option was to either pay at the discount or appeal? You seem to have missed out both the formal and informal reps stage. If you make reps within the 14 days the discount should be available if you get rejected.

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It remains accurate nevertheless. What you are arguing is that it did not embrace all the stages available before an appeal. This is true, but then you didn;t add that at the representation stage, the ability to extend the discount is a wauver by the Council and not a right, so whilst you outline what may happen in practice as the councils you have knowledge of, I'm aware of 2 that do not - once the date is passed that it ir.

 

If your representation fails, then the discount disappears. True, the representation is dealt with in a timely manner, but if the driver queries the PCN late, then the chances of the discount remaining for any significant period after the decision will be limited. As for the informal representation prior to the NTO, I've never had, or known anyone to have on cancelled at first bite (as it were), all had to go to a full Representation. And I don;t think my experience is unique.

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If accuracy was the aim why did you suggest the option was to either pay at the discount or appeal? You seem to have missed out both the formal and informal reps stage. If you make reps within the 14 days the discount should be available if you get rejected.

 

Good idea to see the PCN in all its soggy glory front and back from the piccs you took.

 

Also some pics of lines and signs would be good.

 

Hopefully we can formulate an appeal if world war 3 doesnt break out that is LOL

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Care to elucidate?

 

Or are you unsure what 'discriminatory' actually means?

 

I'm pointing out (as English isn't my first language) that I would have thought the meaning of what was said in posting #5 is crystal clear. It was to me.

 

I dont need to eludicate....you know perfectly well what I mean.


Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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I dont need to eludicate....you know perfectly well what I mean.

OK you guys, appeal or reppy same flipping thing LOL whats up with you lot LOL

 

Anyways there is a sticky on here that goes by

 

what needs to be on a reg 9 pcn.

 

Its the out, if the envelope wasnt properly sealed or it was deffective then its procedural impropriety if the ticket hasnt got the relevant info and it can be proved the go for it.

 

If they reject then lead the LA on a merry dance to tribunal.

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As for the informal representation prior to the NTO, I've never had, or known anyone to have on cancelled at first bite (as it were), all had to go to a full Representation. And I don;t think my experience is unique.

 

You are in a minority, if you take Cambridge as an average example 35% of PCNs gets informal reps whilst only 4% get formal reps yet 13% get cancelled.

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OK you guys, appeal or reppy same flipping thing LOL whats up with you lot LOL

 

Anyways there is a sticky on here that goes by

 

what needs to be on a reg 9 pcn.

 

Its the out, if the envelope wasnt properly sealed or it was deffective then its procedural impropriety if the ticket hasnt got the relevant info and it can be proved the go for it.

 

If they reject then lead the LA on a merry dance to tribunal.

 

I thnk you will find it needs to be on the PCN when its served not after its rained, been run over or gone thru a washing machine.

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Care to elucidate?

 

Or are you unsure what 'discriminatory' actually means?

 

I'm pointing out (as English isn't my first language) that I would have thought the meaning of what was said in posting #5 is crystal clear. It was to me.

 

I'm not English so it didn't really make any sense since it was directed at me.

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I'm not English so it didn't really make any sense since it was directed at me.

Green your as funny as a hole in the head and as much use as a chocolate tea pot

 

The OP said there were photos, before opening.

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surely it's invalid anyhow, he had his hazard lights on.........

........or as Jeremy Clarkson call them 'immunity from observing the laws of the highway flashers'.

 

:D

dx


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Green your as funny as a hole in the head and as much use as a chocolate tea pot

 

The OP said there were photos, before opening.

 

I thought it was already open?

 

Does he have photos to show it was wet and unreadable when it was served?

 

This must be the first Council to use printers that use water based ink to print PCNs rather than thermal printers. :rolleyes:

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I thought it was already open?

 

Does he have photos to show it was wet and unreadable when it was served?

 

This must be the first Council to use printers that use water based ink to print PCNs rather than thermal printers. :rolleyes:

The printer is probably heat based, that being that when heat is applied to the paper VIA the printer head the text comes through.

 

However no doubt you will go to great lengths for an argument to tell us they are now water proof.

 

The appeal will be the same, the error was with the CEO and the ticket has been renedered water damaged so it cannot be read, if there is supporting evidence to prove it.

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The printer is probably heat based, that being that when heat is applied to the paper VIA the printer head the text comes through.

 

However no doubt you will go to great lengths for an argument to tell us they are now water proof.

 

The appeal will be the same, the error was with the CEO and the ticket has been renedered water damaged so it cannot be read, if there is supporting evidence to prove it.

 

I dont need to go to great legnths thermal print does not 'run' even in a monsoon there is no argument. Neither are the Council responsible for the PCN after its served.

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I dont need to go to great legnths thermal print does not 'run' even in a monsoon there is no argument. Neither are the Council responsible for the PCN after its served.

I did not suggest that they run, however if the PCn has not been properly sealed within a weather proof envelope and sealed to keep the rain out, then the media will be damaged. That is why a weather proof envelope is provided is it not.

 

Therefore not properly served within the envelope, PCN illegible due to water dammage.

 

 

Or are you still suggesting they are water proof.

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I did not suggest that they run, however if the PCn has not been properly sealed within a weather proof envelope and sealed to keep the rain out, then the media will be damaged. That is why a weather proof envelope is provided is it not.

 

Therefore not properly served within the envelope, PCN illegible due to water dammage.

 

 

Or are you still suggesting they are water proof.

 

Yes they are waterproof as far as reading goes but they will fall apart if you are not careful. Go stick a till receipt in the garden then try and tell me you cant read it after its been in the rain for five minutes. Obviously its easier to put them in a shower proof envelope as its easier than dealing with countless phone calls and soggy PCNs but its not a legal requirement. The OP claimed the print had 'run' which is hardly to be the case.

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