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    • @dx100uk @ anyone else interested in Fighting HSBC UK  Staff/department non compliance and incompetence/interference in between HSBC UK and customers.   I wanted to know what you guys had to say about the reply i got from HSBC UK today.    Recap. I originally turned to HSBC UK to be reunited with Money i saved in accounts that where frozen and made dormant during the year 1995.   HSBC UK Teams tell me that HSBC UK only allows them to have access to account records dated back 6 years. there for they do not have the records, can not locate the records i requested for in my SAR. there for HSBC UK teams Ignored my SAR application for records of accounts made frozen and dormant during the year 1995. HSBC then claim if the accounts where closed they will no longer hold records of these accounts and tell that to the ICO. I again explained to HSBC UK and the ICO the records of accounts where left frozen and dormant.   HSBC UK teams continue to tell me over the phone that The records i requested for in my SAR, will not be located or do not exist because HSBC only allows them to have access to records of accounts dated back 6 years.    I returned to HSBC highlighting there is no such provision in the Data Protection Act.   HSBC UK teams today totally ignored my complaint again and confirmed with me they are classing my complaint as wanting to locate accounts that where closed.   Let me know what you think about the  HSBC UK teams response to my last complaint. Is there any other letters i can send them to confirm thay are not correct about what they have done.    The HSBC UK letter starts of by:You've been unable to recover funds you held in HSBC UK Accounts that were closed in 1994 to 1995, and to obtain the account details for the accounts concerned. You've been advised that we only retain records for up to 6 years, but you've been unable to locate any provision for this within the Data Protection Act (DPA). You require a Certificate of Destruction from HSBC UK to evidence the destruction of the data concerned. You feel your Subject Access Request (SAR) has been ignored by HSBC UK.   HSBC UK Teams now go on to explain: In respect of you being advised we only retain records for up to 6 years, but having been unable to locate any  provision for this within the Data Protection Act (DPA), I can confirm that under the DPA, we are obliged to only keep records for as long as we deem necessary, in order to effectively manage our data. So, for most cases, this will be for no more than 6 years.   In regards to your request for a Certificate of Destruction from HSBC UK to evidence the destruction of the data concerned, I regret that this isn't something that we can provide, as we don't keep records of when individual customer data was destroyed. I'd also like to clarify that if the accounts concerned were closed after becoming dormant, that we would have sent you closing statements at the time.   Lastly, I'm sorry you feel we've ignored your SAR. I want to assure you that we'll always look to accommodate a request for a SAR as best as we can. However, if we're unable to locate the account details and information required, this will mean we're unable to fulfil the request, which has unfortunately been the case on this occasion.   How else do you think i can highlight to HSBC that the teams dealing with My complaint, and request to be reunited with my money is not going to departments that can deal with my demand for services.?  
    • Hi   I have to agree if you have paid off the debt owed to them via this meter and are up to date on your bills  I would look at changing supplier and as said asking new supplier to install a standard meter and look for the best deals for you.
    • I have severe anxiety and going to leave my job and have been invited to a meeting but dont wish to attend that is three hours away from where I am. Can I legally give the  permission to decide without my being there? I cannot handle going as I know I'm going to be fired anyway as on my final warning. I'm also giving in my notice this week too! This job is just too much for me now and I cannot work here any longer. It's no good for my health and sanity  I am sick to my stomach thinking about going and about to hand my notice in anyway    
    • Thankyou it’s because I’m awaiting the outcome and a friend said I will be turned down as I asked them a while back if I had ppi on the account and how much it was and they replied.  But they did only send me a short confirmation with the amount and that they trust that answers my enquiry. i just wanted to be prepared if they wouldn’t turn me down based on that. Thanks for your advice on that mate 
    • removed again pcn number still showing   dx  
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Dan LXIX

Major engine problem with Citroen C8

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Hi

 

I have a Citroen C8, bought from new, that is now just over 5 1/2 years old with ~62,000 on the clock. It has a full service history that was only done by the dealer during the entire warranty period of 3 years.

 

It developed a problem with a loss of power below 3000rpm about 5 months ago, and since then I've been dealing with the dealer and Citroen trying to get this resolved. I've quickly detailed the timeline below of the last few months:

 

June– loss of power begins to appear

July – dealer looks at it and diagnose a sticking variable vane turbo – offers fuel additive as a solution. Cost ~£300.

August – taken back to dealer as no improvement. Now told it isn’t the turbo (doesn’t even have a VV turbo on it) but it’s probably the injectors. Try to charge me ~£250 but I refuse to pay and they accept that. Offers more additive to attempt to clean the injectors. This doesn't work, but takes up 2 months of motoring.

 

August – Contact Citroen to complain. They respond by offering to have the car looked at by removing the engine and then discussing costs and offer to help as much as possible in this, and tell me to take it back to the dealer. The dealer refuses to book the repair in as Citroen have not authorised the cost. Now the fun begins.

 

December – after much pushing from me via lots of phone calls, several emails, and several attempts to get the dealer to accept the car I finally have to agree to 6 hrs labour to get them to start work, at a cost of £390. I state my position re this that Citroen said they would do this and copy email from Citroen to the dealer as proof. I contact the area manager at Citroen, but strangely he now seems to be missing in all this.

After 5 working days without a car, I contact the dealer only to find out they have yet to remove the engine, having first decided to try out another method to remove injectors – they will not charge for this. Today I'm finally told that 3 of the 4 injectors are stuck, and to get them out involves smashing several parts of the engine, and will cost £3-5000 to repair. I now have a car with the engine removed sitting at the dealers and no resolution in sight.

 

My intention is to seek damages from the dealer if they refuse to repair this at their cost, under the Sale of Goods act, because it is a reasonable expectation for an engine to not require this level of work at this point in it's life. It also seems to be flawed in it's design, if manifolds and cylinder heads have to be smashed off the engine to remove injectors, which would maybe indicate that the engine may never have been fit for purpose.

 

Am I misplaced in this thinking, and does anyone have any advice on how best to take it forward?

TIA.

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Regardless of expiry of the warranty, if the problem is inconsistent with the age and mileage for the car, then you may well be able to use the Sale of Goods Act to put pressure on them.

 

I understand that the first thing to do is to ring around four or five citroen dealers, speak to the lead mechanics and ask if they know of this problem - is it common? - and when could you expect to have it?

 

If they tell you that it is extremely unusual (Which it sounds like it is if it's taken your dealership so long to work it out) then throw the Sale of Goods Act at them.

 

It would be unreasonable to expect them to replace your car but they should at least fix it - and remind them that it will decide for you whether you buy from them again or not.

 

Good Luck:)

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This smacks of total incompetance of not just Ctroen UK but the dealer network as well. Are you able to supply us with details as to how they arrived at the injectors being faulty?

 

I find it very odd that Citroen UK authorised an engine removal to remove the injectors for a start as there are ways of getting them out, even the stubborn ones. As regards having to smash parts of the engine...........well expect a lot of replys on that!!!

 

As regards a SOGA claim, I can't see any "mileage" in that as is well out of warranty.

 

If it can be shown that the injectors are faulty then there might be a case of recourse but bear in mind these type of injectors are increasingly becoming service items.

 

I would suggest some more detailed information as HPCR engines are increasingly being called into question for injector reliability where relatively low mileages are concerned. The next thing is that they are far more complex than normal and the next level of emission regs seems to be causing issues very early on, not that this applies to your car.

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I used soga successfully on a car that was 18 months out of warranty, albeit with the support of trading standards. Don't exclude it.

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Don't know if this will help or not. If dealing with Citroen UK write (rec del) to Gary Savage, who is new MD. Citroen UK is full of "managers" who don't know their arse from their elbow. I have proof of total incompetence at this level. At present, Slough TS are investigating them for me.

Now for the bit i am unsure of. I don't know what engine is in your car, but there is an older Suzuki? jeep type car which is fitted with a Peugeot diesel engine, about 2 or 2.2 litre. Believe it or not, the injectors have to be removed BEFORE the cylinder head can be removed. On car i saw, the garage boss was at his wits end trying to get stuck injectors out. I was called in because he thought someone with truck experience may come up with an idea. I think this is where the story about "Smashing" engine parts may have come in, as the Suzuki is still lying for owner to decide what he can afford to have done. It is utterly inconceivable that any human could design an engine like this. If this is common, then injectors have to be fitted at factory with some sort of anti seize compound. Yours is yet another story where the intervention of "Clever Laddies" has mucked up what is a basic, reliable, economic engine. The latest problems are caused by political pressures to comply with this Euro emissions crap---another subject though.

What i suggest may help you is to contact the OFT and complain about Citroën UK. or go directly to Angela.Slatterly@slough.gov.uk and ask for help. I have no objection to you telling her that the man from Scotland with the faulty Picasso diesel advised contact.

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I reckon it shoud be the Ford/PSA joint venture engine on a C8 but even if it is the Jap varient you still don't need "to smash" the engine to get them out.

 

Wonder if the garage knows what an engineering machine shop is able to do let alone the old and tried trusted methods which usually do work.

 

"Smash an engine"..........heathens all of them!!!

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Please let us into the secret of removing stuck injectors heliosuck. In my time i have made a tool to fit injector, then connect to block and tackle--lift until front wheels barely touch ground then impact----disnae aye work!!! Tried heat after leaving overnight soaking in diesel / releasol. disnae aye work!!! Used 6ft commercial tyre lever at base of injector---disnae aye work!!! So, what the fcuk to try next??????:eek:

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Don't know if this will help or not. If dealing with Citroen UK write (rec del) to Gary Savage, who is new MD. Citroen UK is full of "managers" who don't know their arse from their elbow. I have proof of total incompetence at this level. At present, Slough TS are investigating them for me.

Now for the bit i am unsure of. I don't know what engine is in your car, but there is an older Suzuki? jeep type car which is fitted with a Peugeot diesel engine, about 2 or 2.2 litre. Believe it or not, the injectors have to be removed BEFORE the cylinder head can be removed. On car i saw, the garage boss was at his wits end trying to get stuck injectors out. I was called in because he thought someone with truck experience may come up with an idea. I think this is where the story about "Smashing" engine parts may have come in, as the Suzuki is still lying for owner to decide what he can afford to have done. It is utterly inconceivable that any human could design an engine like this. If this is common, then injectors have to be fitted at factory with some sort of anti seize compound. Yours is yet another story where the intervention of "Clever Laddies" has mucked up what is a basic, reliable, economic engine. The latest problems are caused by political pressures to comply with this Euro emissions crap---another subject though.

What i suggest may help you is to contact the OFT and complain about Citroën UK. or go directly to Angela.Slatterly@slough.gov.uk and ask for help. I have no objection to you telling her that the man from Scotland with the faulty Picasso diesel advised contact.

 

I have the 2.0 HDI engine in mine, and the service manager told me exactly what you've just said - the cylinder head will not come off it you can't remove the injectors first! The technician from the dealers emailed me this:

The next step is to remove the cylinder head from the engine and attempt to remove the injectors from the other side.

To remove the cylinder head the cam shaft carrier has to be removed to get access to the cylinder head bolts.

The problem is that the fuel injectors mount through the cam shaft carrier. In order to remove the cylinder head, the combined aluminium inlet manifold and camshaft carrier has to be destroyed to get access to the cylinder head bolts.

Once we have got to this stage if the injectors still wont come out of the cylinder head it is necessary to replace the cylinder head.

I'm going to try using the SOGA, but I'm unsure about whether to claim for damages and force the dealer to repair it, or take it to a diesel specialist that has been recommended to me, and then try to claim those costs back. The first option could leave me carless for a long time, the second leaves me out of pocket (although less that if the dealer does the repair).

 

Thank's for that contact as well - I'll email her.

Edited by Dan LXIX
typos

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This smacks of total incompetance of not just Ctroen UK but the dealer network as well. Are you able to supply us with details as to how they arrived at the injectors being faulty?

 

I find it very odd that Citroen UK authorised an engine removal to remove the injectors for a start as there are ways of getting them out, even the stubborn ones. As regards having to smash parts of the engine...........well expect a lot of replys on that!!!

 

As regards a SOGA claim, I can't see any "mileage" in that as is well out of warranty.

 

If it can be shown that the injectors are faulty then there might be a case of recourse but bear in mind these type of injectors are increasingly becoming service items.

 

I would suggest some more detailed information as HPCR engines are increasingly being called into question for injector reliability where relatively low mileages are concerned. The next thing is that they are far more complex than normal and the next level of emission regs seems to be causing issues very early on, not that this applies to your car.

 

I thought that warranty periods did not have an impact on the SOGA, but it was about reasonable expectations of durability?

 

If these kind of injectors are becoming servicable items, then surely they would have to be listed in a service schedule (say the 50,000 service), and again there would therefore be a reasonable expectation that you don't have to smash half the engine to bits to replace a servicable item?

 

Do you have any info on the reliabilty on the HPCR engines that I can get at?

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I thought that warranty periods did not have an impact on the SOGA, but it was about reasonable expectations of durability?

 

Quite right. Soga has nothing to do with the warranty.

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Please let us into the secret of removing stuck injectors heliosuck. In my time i have made a tool to fit injector, then connect to block and tackle--lift until front wheels barely touch ground then impact----disnae aye work!!! Tried heat after leaving overnight soaking in diesel / releasol. disnae aye work!!! Used 6ft commercial tyre lever at base of injector---disnae aye work!!! So, what the fcuk to try next??????:eek:

 

Phosphoric acid dripped around base for a couple of days, then heat around casing and a pipe freeze on the injector hooked up to a puller. Takes a long time though but doesn't destroy head.Had to do it twice now and worked each time. I've also seen pre combustion chambers have to be milled out but then the head was off that. Had to do it twice now and worked each time.;)

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I thought that warranty periods did not have an impact on the SOGA, but it was about reasonable expectations of durability?

 

If these kind of injectors are becoming servicable items, then surely they would have to be listed in a service schedule (say the 50,000 service), and again there would therefore be a reasonable expectation that you don't have to smash half the engine to bits to replace a servicable item?

 

Do you have any info on the reliabilty on the HPCR engines that I can get at?

 

I've read somewhere that M/Benz are bringing in changes such as changing the injectors at 100,000 km which equates to about 60,000 miles.

On that basis as you'd say I expect to see it on a manufacturers service schedule, like a cam belt. But they all have different ideas and this is a very recent thing I believe. At the time of manufacture I don't think this would have been the case with the C8.

Also, is this actually an HPCR engine. Reliability wise, they are not as good as the old types but then the pay offs are more efficient fuel consumption, quieter etc etc.

You still shouldn't have to expect to smash the engine to bits though to get them out. Are they screwed in or held in by a plate on this one?

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Now you really have got me interested Heliosuk. (spelling right at last!!!!). I have never heard of injectors which screw in--which motors have them?

As i recall???, the Suzuki injectors were held in by nuts or bolts on a flange which formed part of the injector body. Also, what does HPCR stand for?

What is "Pipe freeze on injector".

Edited by scaniaman

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Have sent a pic of 4 Bosch injectors to you. Early engines used to use them but generally now it's the flange and bolt system.

HPCR is High Pressure Common Rail where each injector is fed from a common tube presurised by the pump and the opening sequence contolled electronically. Then you get another system RPD, radial pump distribution which is what I think this one is, where the pump supplys the individual injector, a bit like the old systems but electromically controlled. There is another but rarely seen. RPD was used widely by VW but they dropped it a few years ago in favour of HPCR.

Pipe freeze is something plumbers use which will freeze sections of pipe in a localised area enabling them to make repairs or joins without interupting the water supply. So you can heat one metal as it expands, then freeze the other and as metals conduct heat whether hot or cold, one side expands, the other contracts at extreames and thus releases. Good for tight fits or tapers such as this case.

 

Was going to e mail you about the spelling but thought I'd upset you somewhere :D

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Now i feel like an apprentice mechanic again!! HPCR is hell of a fancy way to say "common rail". I ran these for 10yrs and didn't know they were HPCR. Where do you get phosphoric acid? and where would a garage get gear to freeze the pipes with? Since we have tried everything else and nothing works, your idea is certainly worth a go.

Upset ME?? Your not in Arnold Clark's league yet. LOL (or citroëns,)( notice the dots!)

Edited by scaniaman
dippit

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It might not have been the same scania but could have been an early generation you saw which was plauged with problems. I think now "we're on generation 4" of the hpcr system.

 

Phosphoric acid I dicovered by accident a few years ago just by smell. I saw an old body panel dipped in it to remove rust and it came out like new but the smell stuck with me. Then a few years later noticed the same thing with some Kurust potion and again with alloy wheel cleaner. It's also used in stuff to remove grout from wall tiles. So I played with some and saw it cleaned all sorts of things with no apparent detrement to the material. There was a difference with over the counter stuff and that sold to garages to clean alloy wheels with. So working on the principal it was allowed on alloy wheels I tried it and the injector popped out but with a bit of a struggle. Realising that it aided the removal I put my OND project on the machanical properties of metals into playHeat one and freeze the other.

 

You can buy pipe freezing kits from screwfix.

 

Like the dots as I haven't worked it out yet but can't LHO get one up on me here.

 

It's worth the OP suggesting this to the garage rather than smash it to bits. With ingenuity and patience you can get them out but I'm still miffed as to why they have gone for the injectors without a full set of tests. Going back to the leakage theory here!!!!

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As these are replaceable parts, there should be no need whatsoever to have any other parts damaged to do so.

i would suggest the dealer gets onto the manufacturer and asks them the proceedure. This is obviously a design fault and because of that the manufacturer must bear the cost if any damage should occur.

 

Make it clear to them that you will not accept any damage to any other parts. I think you would have a very strong case in a court should any damage occur.

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We are having similar prob with Citroen C8 and wondered if you got anywhere with Citroen of Sale of Goods Act. Cam belt broke and only 5yrs old, 57000 miles. Was told by garage that water had got on belt and froze. Bad design fault!! Injectors are also seized in so they claim we need new engine. :mad::mad:

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We are having similar prob with Citroen C8 and wondered if you got anywhere with Citroen of Sale of Goods Act. Cam belt broke and only 5yrs old, 57000 miles. Was told by garage that water had got on belt and froze. Bad design fault!! Injectors are also seized in so they claim we need new engine. :mad::mad:

 

Be careful here as they might mean that the car had no antifreeze so water pump frozen which could shear the teeth on a belt getting older which drives the water pump. Injector problem might mean that they can't remove the head to check damage so they have assumed the worse.

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It was the mechanic at the citroen garage that admitted it was a design fault with water getting onto belt and freezing and by the sound of what I have read on reviews from other C8 owners it is not the first time this has happened either. I know they are going to try to get out of sorting it out.

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I really can't accept this as a credible diagnosis as to the route cause of the issue. I cannot think of a vehicle where the belt is sealed with no possibility of water ingress. Something else has happened here and I reckon it's around in the water pump area with it seizing for some reason. We've had the same discussion on this forum before with belts being changed but not doing a belt driven pump at the same time. Frankly the reason given is by the fairies. If that was true then just about every manufacturer would have the same issue which they don't. Further, all manufacturers test in the same cold weather conditions.

 

I'm 99% sure the pump has seized for some reason, usually because of not changing anti freeze every 2 years which will strip the belt thus allowing pistons to hit the valves. The head cant be removed because injectors block access to cam carrier bolts which block access to head bolts.

 

A good time served engineer from the 70's will know how to get around this. Admittadly it takes time but is possible without destroying the engine.

 

Easiest way out would be to change pump and belt and time correctly and then manually turn engine a few cycles with a low pressure gauge in place of heater plug to see if valves are operating or stuck due to being bent. If engine locks you know your stuffed but if all read same then you know you have a fighting chance.

 

See method in this thread as regards removing injectors succefully and pass on to garage. It has worked in the past.

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Many Thanks for that info. We do think the garage is trying it on a bit. Citroen themselves are not being very helpful either but will keep trying!!

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:confused: I have just had a timing belt snap on my wifes 54 plate C8 with 46500 miles on it!!!! Got my mate who has a garage to fix at a cost of £3K. Drove it for a week and then it lost power, engine management light came on and would not go above 50 MPH. i believe that this is a limp home mode that the engine puts on itself. Now i have a problem that we dont know what is wrong with the car. The diagnostic doesnt show any faults when plugged in.

Any help from anyone?? hope it is something basic as cant afford any more expence.

:DTip for temoving injectors soak them in coca-cola for two days and then use a 10 ton injector puller, we managed to save 1 but at £250 each it was worth saving.

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To the best of my knowledge this engine is fitted to Citroën, Suzuki and Peugeot, perhaps more.

This engine demonstrates a basic design flaw in that the head can't be removed before the injectors are removed.

IMHO, all people who have had trouble with this engine should write en-masse to their MP and ALSO the OFT.

How many punters were told, or could have reasonably found out, about the flaws in this engine, and injectors at £250 each at point of sale, be it new or used.

It is now a breach of CPUTR 2008 Regs. NOT TO INFORM buyers about certain things. Major cost items such as this must surely come into this regulation.

But you must COMPLAIN EN MASSE or nothing will be done.

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Not so sure it's a design flaw scania but does raise some questions in this area. I think the problem is in being able to remove the injectors after a period in service which is not easy to calculate as in some markets it might be that you can remove them easily. What we need to find out is why they seize in their mass market areas. Once injectors are out it's straightforward. My opinion is that it can be done relatively easily given it's a screw in injector. The problem is why it's not made clear that the water pump needs changing at the same time as the belt along with the tensioner and why the pumps are failing. I first came across it on MK1 Nissan micras and that was 20 years ago now.

 

Because of the posts that pop up in relation to this issue with the pump, it's been raised as a potential risk and is being looked at by my organisation even though the pump is not driven by the belt on any units fitted at the moment.

 

There is a poster on the Vauxhall spring thread who knows his metallurgical stuff very well and it would be very interesting to hear his take on the complaints.

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