Council Tax bailiffs first visit - where do I go from here **WON**

[crockie]

Hi

 

Hope someone can help.

 

We have had a bailiff call today whilst we were out and they have left notices to say we have over £2500 worth of outstanding coucil tax and we must contact them immediatley.

 

I have rung the council and said that in no way shape or form will I be dealing with Bailiffs (we have previously had a very nasty experience) and I have asked them to take the debt back. The have refused outright and given me the usual garbage that now it has gone to the bailiffs they cant take the debt back.

 

I have told them that I will only make payments directly to the council and have said that the first payment will be made this week.

 

Council employee stated that all they will do is ring the bailiff each week and tell them that the amount owed has been reduced untill (hopefully) the bailiff will get bored of calling and return the debt to them.

 

Now I have made the call I am not sure I have done the right thing as I have three young children and dont want people banging at the door again. The last visit from a council appointed bailiff in 2008 haas made my daughter petrified of people knocking on our door

 

So should I write to bailiffs and make my offer, hope that they accept and leave us alone or should I go with my original intention and write to bailiff and council telling them that I will not deal with bailiff and begin making my payments to the council??

 

I am aware that there are template letter on here but unfortuantely I cant find them.

 

Thanks

[hallowitch]

Council Tax and Bailiffs there is a template letter to send to the bailiffs if you want to pay it through the bailiffs

 

personally i would pay the council

[crockie]

Council Tax and Bailiffs there is a template letter to send to the bailiffs if you want to pay it through the bailiffs

 

personally i would pay the council

 

I think I would rather pay the council and the council employee has made a note on their files that this is what I intend to do.

 

I have just got myself confused now as to what I should send 1, to the bailiffs to tell them that I will not deal with them and 2, to send to the council re inforcing my conversation of this morning

 

I am really very concerned about them calling again though. I have a car on the drive which is subject to HP but I cant find a copy of the agreement. We also have another vehicle which is used for work purposes, this is owned by my husband but is again subject to HP but in someone elses name.

 

Also I am confused because I thought that the council had to send a 14 notice that they were appointing bailiffs, we havent had this and council have just told me they dont have to send this.

Edited December 9, 2009 by crockie
extra info

[hallowitch]

use the template letter and amend it so that its council you are offering payment to

 

ask the finance company to send you a copy of the finance agreement when you receive it send it to the bailiffs and put them on notice that you have now provided proof that the car is on finance and therefore no enforcement action can be taken against the vehicle

do you have business insurance on the other car or can you get a copy of the HP agreement to send to the bailiffs

[crockie]

use the template letter and amend it so that its council you are offering payment to

 

ask the finance company to send you a copy of the finance agreement when you receive it send it to the bailiffs and put them on notice that you have now provided proof that the car is on finance and therefore no enforcement action can be taken against the vehicle

do you have business insurance on the other car or can you get a copy of the HP agreement to send to the bailiffs

 

Thank you so much for your help

 

I will amend the letter and send today.

 

We have business vehicle insurance for the second vehicle and to be honest you cant really miss that it is a business vehicle as it is a Hackney Carriage with Taxi signs on it. This vehicle is also worth 10 times the amount owed to the council.

 

Should I also send a letter to the bailiffs telling them to go away?

 

Also odd that the lady at council said she couldnt take the debt back but then advised me on the easiest way to make payments directly to them.

[hallowitch]

don't send them a letter just yet try to get the finance agreement first and send the go away letter with the agreement

 

if you send them the go away letter first they might get nasty and clamp the car before you send the proof of finance

 

they cant touch the taxi as it is a work tool so no worries there

[crockie]

Thank you once again for your help

 

Just had a look around for the car finance agreement but my OH has just reminded me that it would be pointless sending a copy of the original agreement because it has actually expired. To cut a very long story short we refused to pay for the car for a long time as it was delivered to us in an unroadworthy condition (it was actually horrendous) after a long fight the fionance company agreed to repair the car but as a result we are now paying for 18 months after the orignal agreement expired.

 

I do have a recent letter from the finance company stating the amount still owed and our monthly payment but it doesnt state the vehicle reg no, just the agreement number.

[hallowitch]

you could send the expired agreement and a copy of the letter to them as they will both have the same agreement number

 

or ask the finance company to send you a letter confirming car reg is subject to finance

[crockie]

Been reading through loads of threads hoping for some reassurance and I have to admit I am even more worried now

 

I was a member of CAG 18months-2yrs ago due to problems with CT bailiffs and after a fight I managed to get it sorted but this wasnt before I had a large chap trying to push his way through my front door (I was in the early stages of a very precarious pregnancy at the time), the police were called who were no help what so ever. I made a complaint about the bailiff and had some charges returned.

 

My front door still has his boot mark on it.

 

Just not sure I can go through all this again

 

If I ignore the bailiffs and pay the council are the bailiffs going to hound me untill the full £2500 is paid?

 

If I send the template letter offering payment to the bailiffs can they charge me anything other than first visit charge and will they leave me alone if I pay up.

[RaeUK]

No need to worry Crockie, I think you've had some good advice. You've agreed with the council to pay them so don't pay the bailiff. Your cars are on HP so no problem.

I can't recall the list, but check to see if you fit into the vulnerable group of people whom bailiffs should not be visiting...

Rae

[crockie]

No need to worry Crockie, I think you've had some good advice. You've agreed with the council to pay them so don't pay the bailiff. Your cars are on HP so no problem.

I can't recall the list, but check to see if you fit into the vulnerable group of people whom bailiffs should not be visiting...

Rae

 

Thank you for you support.

 

I have now spent the entire night awake and still dont know what to do.

 

I want to take a stand and tell the Bailiffs to get stuffed I am paying the council but I had such a bad experience last time that I am literally petrified for the safety and sanity of myself and my children

 

My last visit from a bailiff was in September 2008, two men turned up at 7.30am, blocked my driveway and began to get extreemely agressive.

 

This is despite the fact that the last £150 of a massive bill was in dispute, I was in the vunerable category as I was pregnant. They went on to clamp our car despite being told that it was on HP and I offered them proof. The police were called in the end as one man tried to push past me into the house (on the basis apparently that I didnt look pregnant!), but I still had to pay them to get the clamp removed.

 

OH I SHOULD ADD THAT THEY DID NOT HAVE A LEVY ON ANYTHING AND HAD NEVER BEEN IN MY PROPERTY BEFORE MR BAILIFF SHOVED THIS FOOT/BODY THROUGH IT.

Now whilst I know they cant LEGALLY do any of this, there is actually nothing I can do to stop them trying

 

What on earth do I do??

 

Should I write to the council saying that as far as I am concerned they have accepted my offer of payment as it has been noted on my file and payment advice has been given by them?

Edited December 10, 2009 by crockie

[jimbo45]

Hi there

 

1) DO NOT OPEN THE DOOR IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

2) CALL POLICE IMMEDIATELY saying you think you are about to be burgled by people attempting to break in.

 

Note if last visit was 2008 (more than 90 days) then NULLO BONO applies in any case --DEBT MUST go back to people (I.e Council) who issued Liability order.

 

Another thing to check -- did you ever gaet a 14 Day notice of "Liability order" from the council -- No order No Bailiff end of story. (You still need to make arrangements to pay Tax, or get it paid via benefits etc) however.

 

Dont worry about these thugs -- they work by just using SCARE taxes -- welcome to Britain 21st Century -- no better than the old "Kings Tax collectors" in Feudal times - but at least THEY had the (unjust) Law on their side these days at least the Law is ever so slightly on YOUR side.

 

These prople are committing an act of AGGREVATED TRESSPASS if they threaten, cajole or in any other way harass or intimidate you This is a SEVERE offence and can carry severe penalties including imprisonment.

 

Also as the previous poster said if you are on the list of vulnerable people the council doesn't have any mandate to send the Bailiff's round.

 

Get the Local Paper involved as well -- These obnoxious Bailiff's are the Council's subcontractors so THEY are responsible for their behaviour in any case.

 

Check also whether the Council actually ran a check on whether these people are still "legally certified Bailiff's" or what "quality assurance" they got from the Bailiff company-- if you don't get these assurances then THE COUNCIL itself is breaking the law in employing people doing a job they have NO right to do -- the council want to do checks of such things such as whether WE are fit people to drive friends children to school but conveniently forget their own obligations in this matter.

 

But again DO NOT EVER OPEN THE DOOR TO THESE PEOPLE -EVER.

 

And why even BOTHER to write ANYTHING to the Bailiff's. Deal with the Council -- They are LEGALLY required to accept and collect tax -- ignore their automatons on the phone mouthing a single sentence " Unfortunately this has been passed to the Bailiff's we can't collect it" - LIES - the Bailiff's are THEIR subcontractors who they control -- they can stop them at ANY time. - If they've made "3rd party deals" so the Bailiff want a "cut" that's the COUNCIL's problem --NOT YOURS.

 

Doesn't it annoy you when ever you hear the word "Unfortunately" being mouthed by council and other state officials -- what this means is really "We've done something that might / probably is wrong but we just can't be bothered to change it -- so go away".

 

DO NOT GO AWAY - if enough people cause a big log jame in this totally horrendous way of enforcing Tax collection it might be stopped altogether).

 

 

If the Council accepts your tax payment offers and attempts to add Bailiff / collection fees on top (it won't - but who knows what desperate measures some will do these days) then the FEE is not TAX and must go through normal CIVIL debt procedures -- and any first year law student would have absolutely no problem getting that quashed before it got a million miles near any court.

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited December 10, 2009 by jimbo45

[crockie]

Hi there

 

1) DO NOT OPEN THE DOOR IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

2) CALL POLICE IMMEDIATELY saying you think you are about to be burgled by people attempting to break in.

 

Note if last visit was 2008 (more than 90 days) then NULLO BONO applies in any case --DEBT MUST go back to people (I.e Council) who issued Liability order.

 

Another thing to check -- did you ever gaet a 14 Day notice of "Liability order" from the council -- No order No Bailiff end of story. (You still need to make arrangements to pay Tax, or get it paid via benefits etc) however.

 

Also as the previous poster said if you are on the list of vulnerable people the council doesn't have any mandate to send the Bailiff's round.

 

 

The last visit in 2008 was a different bailiffs firm. After much a do we got them called off and made regular payments to the council direct.

 

When the next bill came due in April this year we still had a full year outstanding, we couldnt afford to pay two lots of payments so wrote to the council in May making them an offer of £50 per week.

 

They replied saying that they would accept £30 a week off the arrears but that the current years payments were non-negiotable - so in effect my offer was refused We have then stuck our heads in the sand untill 1/12 when I hand delivered a letter making them an offer of payment (council employee I spoke to yesterday said there is no trace of the letter!)

 

We have received Liability Orders but I was under the impression that the council had to send 14 day notices of intention to appoint bailiffs "From 1 April 1998, local authorities must send you a letter giving 14 days notice of a proposed bailiff visit to collect council tax" we havent received this and I was told yesterday by the council employee that they dont have to do this.

[jimbo45]

Hi there

1) The Council employee is giving you B/S -- NAME AND SHAME to local paper.

2) You STILL don't have to pay the BAILIFF or DEAL with them in any way whatsoever.

 

If you CAN'T pay (as opposed to Won't pay) then you'll have to go through the system to get Council Tax relief or whatever -- I'm only just finding my way around Bailiff action legislation but there are probably other people who can help with how to claim Benefits. CAB might be good for this).

 

In any case YOU 100% DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE BAILIFF - SO LONG AS YOU HAVEN'T LET THEM IN

 

"Van Fees" and charges not proscribed in the law cannot be collected in any case.

 

In any case -- please take legal advice here but if you really CAN'T pay then Bankruptcy is an option and the bailiff action will be stopped - and these days the stigma is nothing like as bad as it used to be. You don't necessarily have to lose your home either -- but DO GET COMPETANT LEGAL ADVICE BEFORE GOING DOWN THIS ROUTE.

 

Note - even if you've had a visit from the Bailiff's for a previous Bill a NEW BILL is a NEW BILL and they can't use collections from Prior visits to force their way in for the new bill.

 

STAND FIRM AGAINST THESE THUGS -- THE LAW IS ON YOUR SIDE.

 

DO NOT EVER LET THEM IN.

 

If you have to play "Letter Tennis" with Council's etc ALWAYS USE RECORDED DELIVERY AT THE VERY LEAST.

 

My impression of Most Local Councils is that people would have trouble finding where their own bottoms are when using the Loo -- "Lost Letter--what a surprise".

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited December 10, 2009 by jimbo45

[hallowitch]

from the 1st of November child benefit is no longer classed as an income when calculating council tax benefit

go and see a welfare benefit adviser there may be one at your council

 

I would also advise that you go see your MP ask for his help

you need both council tax debts bundled into 1 and an affordable payment plan that will leave you enough money to pay future council tax bills

[crockie]

Ok I think I am going to email (send copy via recorded delivery post) to Recovery Dept at council and ask them to put Bailiffs on hold to allow me to make payments to them as I have offered.

 

I will also send copies of email to all three local councillors in the hope that one of them will help.

 

I am normally quite a sensible, hard person but since the last bailiff visit I am a quivering wreck if someone knocks at my front door My 7 year old daughter asks frequently if that "nasty man" is going to come back.

[jimbo45]

Hi there

Don't mention anything about Bailiff's - their right's are just about the same as you asking a Friend to speak to "the man in the pub you lent 20 quid to last week".

 

Bailiff's are employed by the COUNCIL - It's THEIR business in how to deal with them.

 

Just offer to pay tax to the Council - They are LEGALLY obliged to collect it. The only thing they can do is dispute the payment plan but they can't refuse TAKING TAX.

 

If you do mention Bailiff's - just state that in any case you are not obliged to pay them, speak to them in anyway whatsoever and any attempt by them to trespass on your property will result in legal action against them for trespass and Police will be called to have them removed.

 

Mention that you in any case will NOT pay them (the Bailiff's) anything as they have no legal rights. (again this is Paramount DON'T EVER LET THEM IN).

 

Continue - If they harrass in any way charges will be filed against THEM for aggrevated trespass to the fullest extent of the law for which severe penalties exist including imprisonment and the council as their employers will also incur substantial penalties as knowingly allowing their employees (as they are for the purposes of collection agents) to commit unlawful acts.

 

Don't even give the council any inkling that you are even considering speaking to the Bailiff's.

 

Council tax depts treat people like Fodder -- when you snap up and bite them back they don't like it.

 

If they don't accept the debt back then just sit tight until (as it has to do anyway) it goes back to the council.

 

You've OFFERED to pay the council so you can't be sent to prison or stupid things like that. Just keep aside the amounts you have agreed to pay if they refuse to accept payment.

 

We abolished Debtor prisons in the 1800's so don't get scared of these thugs and bullies.

 

(BTW if you are seeking Council Tax benefits then they ( The Council) can't do anything anyway until the case has been reviewed and a decision made - so get your Council Tax benefits form in - go to CAB or whatever).

 

Cheers

jimbo

[hallowitch]

If you do mention Bailiff's - just state that in any case you are not obliged to pay them, speak to them in anyway whatsoever and any attempt by them to trespass on your property will result in legal action against them for trespass and Police will be called to have them removed

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

A bailiff cant get done for trespass

 

(7) A distress shall not be deemed unlawful on account of any defect or want of form in the liability order, and no person making a distress shall be deemed a trespasser on that account; and no person making a distress shall be deemed a trespasser from the beginning on account of any subsequent irregularity in making the distress, but a person sustaining special damage by reason of the subsequent irregularity may recover full satisfaction for the special damage (and no more) by proceedings in trespass or otherwise.

[jimbo45]

Hi there

if they've been asked to leave or "notice of implied invitation to visit your property" has been withdrawn then it's tresspass.

 

There is a case on this somewhere in the Forum -- not sure what it is but it's described somewhere.

 

Postman, High Court enforcement, Fines, Income TAX / VAT, UTILITY Companies CAN VISIT. For others if the implied invitation has been withdrawn then it could be considered trespass.

 

In any case they CANNOT ENTER your home if uninvited. This includes Breaking in for which normal B/E charges can be filed along with loads of other "Harrasement" / Assault etc charges.

 

I'd suspect that as a woman you could probably add you were scared of attempted rape or some other juicy charges but be careful here.

 

In any case I'm not a small man by any maner but even I would not like TWO never mind ONE total stranger coming inside.

 

The council has been informed that you aren't prepared to deal with these people and apart from the Postman, Utility companies and duly certified "Court Enforcement Officers" with Police attendance then any "implied" invitation for people to access your property can be withdrawn -- as I stated above there's a case about this very issue on the Forum somewhere.

 

Court Enforcement where they can break in is for Fines, High Court judgements , Income tax etc. Council Tax doesn't come under this remit.

 

STILL DO NOT EVER LET THEM IN. THAT IS 100% CORRECT.

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited December 10, 2009 by jimbo45

[crockie]

Ok I have emailed the council and also sent a copy of the email and my original offer of payment dated 1/12 recorded delivery.

 

I have told them that in no way will I deal with the bailiffs or pay them any money and they will not be granted access to my home or property.

 

I will be making my first payment to them in the morning.

 

So now i have to sit and wait

 

I have also contacted the car finance company and asked them for a copy of the credit agreement on the car and also anything else that they can provide that proves the car is subject to HP.

 

As for my OH work vehicle - for the moment he has decided that he will just stay out of the house between the hours of 6am-9pm, which obviously will be difficult for all of us. I realise that legally they cant take this vehicle as it is his sole work tool but as we all know this will not stop them trying. I cannot get a copy of the credit agreement for this vehicle as the HP is in someone else's name and they are out of the country untill the middle of Jan. I do have a letter from the Vehicle dealership confirming that the vehicle will not be released untill monies are received from the finance company. Do bailiffs have to do HPI checks before removing a vehicle? only ask as surely this would show up outstanding finance and then they would be unable to remove.

 

Sorry for all the questions but to be quite honest I feel sick to my stomache and have been unable to eat or sleep since the bailiff letters arrived yesterday morning.

 

Presuming that the council come back and tell me to get stuffed which I imagine is more than likely, what is my next course of action? A letter to Bailiffs to tell them that I am not paying them etc.

 

If I am honest I have nearly cracked several times today and just called Bailiffs to make arrangment as I just cant cope knowing that they could turn up at any minute and start banging at the door

[jimbo45]

Hi there

once you've offered to pay the Council --Don't DO ANYTHING with the Bailiff's - no arrangement --NOTHING -- PLEASE DON'T COMMUNICATE with the bailiff's -- this affords them a "Quasi - Legal status" which they DON'T have and by communicating with them you are implicitly agreeing with their right to collect the tax.

 

These THUGS and Bullies can only operate because people just are afraid of their rights under the law.

 

If you've offered to pay the Tax and haven't previously let the Bailiff's in - DO NOT COMMUNICATE WITH THEM AT ALL --you don't have to and why should you.

 

If more people resisited the bullying tactics (and often illegal harassment) of these bully boys councils would be forced to employ more humane forms of Council tax collection

in any case if yoy are unemployed or applying for council tax relief then these people HAVE NO RIGHT at all to communicate with you further - look at the "vulnerable persons / categories list".

 

It's unbelievable that here in in 2009 / 2010 people can almost be terrorised by the threat of who is at the Front door. Welcome to Feudal Britain 21st century style.

 

If more people stand up for their rights we can be RID of these vermin FOR GOOD.

 

Cheers

jimbo.

[crockie]

Need some clarification pretty quickly if anyone can help me.

 

Is shoving two letter through my door classed as a first 1st (pre-enforcement team) ?

 

The letters only state that the debt is now in the control of ***** and that we need to contact them. Gives amount owed and states that this includes statutory charge.

 

The amount owed is for two separate council tax bills, there are two letters and it appears that they have charged £24.50 per letter. Can they charge £24.50 for each account despite that fact that they have only made one visit.

[jimbo45]

Hi there

I STILL wouldn't PAY THEM -- just keep pushing on with the Council.

 

YOU DON'T HAVE TO CONTACT THEM EITHER - Just tell them through the letter Box etc (better still don't speak to them at all) to "Bog--f".

 

After Bill is paid to Council - any "Fees" are Civil debt so they don't have rights to Harass you anyway on this - that has to go through "Civil Process" - since they can't levy anything against the Liability order which you've paid or arranged to pay to the council.

 

Just IGNORE them and ONLY deal with the council -- even if these Bailiff's put a whole LIBRARY FULL of stuff through the door.

 

Also when you write to the council say the Bailiff HASN'T produced / sent you the COURT liability order in any case so no Court papers - no case. You are asking for the Liability order to check the amount owed and to ensure no illegal fees are being charged. Pefectly legit.

 

Just because they SAY they are Bailiff's it's up to THEM to produce genuine documentation showing their authority to carry out their grisly work -- chances are that some of the more "thuggier types" won't be bothered with such legal trivia as Court Paperwork -- then you've GOT THEM - but I'd still avoid any confronttation by just refusing any contact - even THROUGH the letter box.

 

BTW another trick they do to gain admittance is catch people out when they are putting their Bins outside for rubbish collection - people leave the door open then. This is especially true these days where more and more people have several different coloured Bins to put out - this takes a little time and a "clever" Bailiff knows this.

 

Put your Bins out the NIGHT BEFORE.

 

If your door is OPEN then they can come in --the law only protects you if YOU HAVEN'T LET THEM IN.

 

IF they HAVE entered your rights are severely reduced -but - you still have the right to request proper ID, check with the company that they are who they say they are, and they have accredited court papers AND HAVE A COPY OF THE LIABILITY ORDER. BEST AS I SAY OVER AND OVER AGIN DO NOT LET THEM IN.

 

(You STILL have to pay council tax one way or another however unless you can get relief).

 

Don't we all just HATE THESE ****. What a shame some people have utterly NO conscience on how they "earn" their crusts.

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited December 11, 2009 by jimbo45

[crockie]

6am - the council received their first payment via their online system. I dont want to give exact figures on here because you never know who is reading but I am offering over £100 per week to clear this debt

 

hehehehe I never leave my door open when I put the bin out because I have a BIG dog lol.

 

My point about the fees is that if they are already taking the p*** by charges two lots of fees instead of one then I have a stick to hit the council with when they say no to my offer.

 

I am sure that they will tell me that this is a different company etc and they are law abiding etc - not the case if they are already overcharging me.

 

So - CAN THEY CHARGE 2 x £24.50 FOR SHOVING TWO LETTERS THROUGH MY DOOR IF THEY ARE COLLECTING FOR TWO BILLS?

 

I am suprised that they never made any effort to contact me via post before sticking letters through my door!!

[jimbo45]

Hi there

They probably can although what the legal interpretation of "A Visit" is I have no idea.

 

I would assume it must be "Attempted contact" i.e they must at least have rung the front door bell -- I'm not a Lawyer so I can't help on that one -- the Bailiff's can charge 24.50 GBP for a First Visit and 18.00 GBP for a second visit. However each Liability order is a separate incident although they can attempt to collect for both at the same time --

 

I'd still just ignore them and ONLY deal with the council -- that's the ONLY BILL that matters -- the Bailiff's can go and enjoy "Making a Sexual Move with a Duck".

 

If you've got reasonable grounds - and get some help on this one you can really Hoze up the whole works by applying for Council Tax relief -- this will invalidate any order whilst THIS process is going on - and coming up to XMAS your council is unlikely to be operating at "Full Speed".

 

Also if the Council refuse payment at first just keep a copy of the letter offering payment that you sent to the council -- they HAVE to take the debt back again after 90 days from the date on the Liability order (NULLO BONO) and BY LAW they HAVE TO COLLECT THE TAX. - Just ignore the automotons who can only mouth over and over again "Unfortunately -- this has been passed to the Bailiff's so we cant accept payment" or other totally bovine remarks like that.

 

Cheers

 

and to all Bailiff's everywhere -- A HORRIBLE and throughly UNSUCCESSFUL new Year To YOU ALL.

 

Jimbo

Edited December 11, 2009 by jimbo45