Council Tax bailiffs first visit - where do I go from here **WON**

[Nintendo Pü]

Throssell v Leeds City Council

 

This case has been punted about on this forum on parking ticket cases, asserting bailiffs cannot charge multiple visit fees for simultaenous visits - which the legislation already provides, but its never been quoted before on council tax bailiff fee dispute. Its nowhere on BAILII.

 

Do you know any more about this?

[crockie]

Hallowich has a comprehensive list of goods that cannot be taken by bailiffs.

 

I havnt read your thread in detail, but from your last post, I cant find anything suggesting the bailiff has acted unlawfully. I cant find anything in the legislation saying the bailiff cannot charge multiple (statutory) visit fees for simultanious visits, but Its not allowed when a bailiff is collecting multiple unpaid parking tickets at the same address.

 

Have you been through the official advice channels?

 

insolvency helpling about bailiffs Debt Basics - Bailiff Guide - know your rights

 

This is the Official advice on council tax bailiffs: National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 02 Bailiffs And Council Tax but don't waste your energy complaining to bailiffs trade associations. They are NOT industry regulators.

 

If you need help from a professional body in dealing with bailiffs then Z2K might be able to help. Supporting Vulnerable Households | Z2K Zacchaeus 2000 Trust

 

The Citizens Advice Bureau has a page full of good advice Council tax arrears - good practice protocol

 

You could be classed a vulnerable person for the purposes of civil enforcement. Department for Constitutional Affairs - Enforcement - National Standards for Enforcement Agents but its not legally binding, only the sort of material a journalist at your local rag would find useful if bailiffs contradict the national stands guidelines.

 

The law prescribing bailiffs fees for collecting unpaid council tax is the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and provides £24.50 for a first visit. He can charge a further £18 for a second visit (if genuinely made). No other bailiff's fees can lawfully be charged if a bailiff has not moved your goods in a vehicle and you have not signed any document consenting to a levy or a walking possessions agreement (currently a flat rate of £10).

 

Oh believe me I have read anything and everything and will continue to read.

 

I am sure that I have read somewhere other than on this forum that they cannot charge multiple fees for one visit but now cant remember where

 

However if I have to pay them two lots of £24.50, then I will do so. I agree they have made one visit and as such they have earnt their fee (despite the fact we weren't in and they just shoved two letters through the door). If they make another visit, then I will pay the next £18.00 or £36 which ever legally applies but I will not pay them any of the CT outstanding.

 

I do find parts of the content of their letter threatening "we do not require your consent to seize goods and in the absence of a walking possession agreement being signed and/or full payment being tendered, immediate removal action and the fees for such is permitted by law."

 

It basically reads to me that the minute the council release their hold then they are going to use any means possible get us to pay them.

 

We are in no way trying to get out of paying our CT. I have made two offers of payment to the council, one some months ago which was refused and then one a couple of weeks ago which I believe may have highlighted our account and prompted this action.

 

So far we have paid two payments to the council and will have paid 4 or 5 by the time this case is reviewed in January. Surely by that point we will have shown good faith with our intentions to clear the debt.

 

I am allready too scared to open my own front door due to a previous incident with a Bailiff back in Sept 08, the aggressive nature of this man has left me frightend to be in my own home

 

I do not answer the front door to anyone I dont know, if I think I know the person then I still dont open the door without the chain on and my dog by my side.

 

We have stated that we will not co-operate, they cannot clamp, levy or remove our vehicles because they are subject to HP and one is sole tool of trade, so why not let us just pay the council?

[crockie]

Sorry I am hopeless with links so I dont know if this will work but if anyone has time, read the following thread and it will give you an idea why I am too scared to open my own front door.

 

Urgent Help Needed Re Council Tax Bailifs (1 2 3 4)

sheraton01

 

Edited to say: Have now read their letter over and over and to me it is just a veiled threat and means the following;

 

I know that you have down loaded parts of your letter which means you dont really know your rights

 

wherever/whoever you have got your info from doesnt know what they are talking about

 

As soon as the council lifts the suspension we are coming

Edited December 19, 2009 by crockie

[crockie]

Have just found an email from Senior Recovery Officer at council in my spam folder.

 

To cut a very long story short they are not willing to help us and will not recall debt back from bailiffs. They are happy to let us be harrassed by bailiffs untill baillifs send it back as uncollected THEN we will have an opportunity to make another arrangement with them.

 

I honestly find this incredible. They wont make an arrangement with us now but they will in a few weeks when the bailiffs have given up harrassing us.

 

I am very tempted to move out of the house for the next few weeks, the pity of that would be that it would cost an awful lot of money and that would be better spent by paying the council.

 

I just dont know what to do now - there is no way I can spend each day wondering if someone is going to bang down my door at 07.30.

[Big_Bother!]

Hi Crokie

Sorry to hear your tale of woe You are not alone - a similar thing happened to me.No to me it seems that there is something strange going on here. Probably some dubious relationship between council and bailiffs.Old boy network? Mafia? Belive me this does happen in Town Halls.

May I suggest a letter to your MP and a copy to the head mafiia sorry Chief executive of the council works wonders - now an election is looming.

worked for me - got all my C/tax back! Good luck!

[ploddertom]

Because of what and how it says it I would hang on to the letter from the bailiffs as if it were gold dust. Providing they turn up at different times/days then yes they can add the extra fees they are demanding but cannot do this on a single visit.

 

As for the hassles with the Council have they given a specific reason for not taking your account back? Regardless I would get on to your local Concillor tomorrow, even if it is Sunday and make him work for you.

 

PT

[crockie]

Because of what and how it says it I would hang on to the letter from the bailiffs as if it were gold dust. Providing they turn up at different times/days then yes they can add the extra fees they are demanding but cannot do this on a single visit.

 

As for the hassles with the Council have they given a specific reason for not taking your account back? Regardless I would get on to your local Concillor tomorrow, even if it is Sunday and make him work for you.

 

PT

 

They are saying that they wont recall the debt because they recalled in 2008 after visit from a very agressive bailiff and after about 5/6 months of making payments we missed a few weeks (due to birth of baby). As soon as we had got ourselves together again I wrote to the council making them an offer to clear 2008-2009 arrears and make this years payments.

 

The were willing to accept an offer for the arrears but said that 2009 payments were non-negotiable. There was no way we could make the payments they were asking for. I had intended to make the payments that I had offered depsite the fact that they said it wasnt enough but unfortunatley our mortgage co and electricity supplier were getting very edgy and they had to come first.

 

So far we have only had one visit from the Bailiff co but they are charging us two fees which they are claiming they can as there are two liability orders, how do I go about proving that they cant?

 

Our plan at the moment is to get together as much money as we can over the christmas period and pay that in the hope that it will buy us some more time, wont be much of a christmas for the kids

 

I will also be writing back to the recovery officer re-iterating the fact that I will not co-operate with the Bailiffs in anyway and will therefore not be responding to their letter which as far as I am concerned is just a polite way of intimidating me into paying up.

 

Apparently we should be entitled to some council tax benefit but the whole process looks very complicated due to OH being self employed.

[ploddertom]

They are saying that they wont recall the debt because they recalled in 2008 after visit from a very agressive bailiff and after about 5/6 months of making payments we missed a few weeks (due to birth of baby). As soon as we had got ourselves together again I wrote to the council making them an offer to clear 2008-2009 arrears and make this years payments.

 

Yes I see their point, remember they only want their cash and aren't bothered about your family life!

 

The were willing to accept an offer for the arrears but said that 2009 payments were non-negotiable. There was no way we could make the payments they were asking for. I had intended to make the payments that I had offered depsite the fact that they said it wasnt enough but unfortunatley our mortgage co and electricity supplier were getting very edgy and they had to come first.

I think they are asking to prove yourself but appreciate the difficulty this puts you in.

 

So far we have only had one visit from the Bailiff co but they are charging us two fees which they are claiming they can as there are two liability orders, how do I go about proving that they cant?

 

Our plan at the moment is to get together as much money as we can over the christmas period and pay that in the hope that it will buy us some more time, wont be much of a christmas for the kids

Personally I would only pay what you can realistically afford. If you put yourself out to pay say £200 then in their eyes you can afford larger payments.

 

I will also be writing back to the recovery officer re-iterating the fact that I will not co-operate with the Bailiffs in anyway and will therefore not be responding to their letter which as far as I am concerned is just a polite way of intimidating me into paying up.

 

Apparently we should be entitled to some council tax benefit but the whole process looks very complicated due to OH being self employed.

 

Don't know whether it is still the same but used to be filling in simple profit and loss sheet, it would pay you to do this. Do yopu have a Welfare Rights Adviser at the Council/CAb etc?

 

 

PT

[crockie]

Quick update

 

We have now paid four weekly payments via councils online payment service. All these payments have been accepted, none have been returned to us so far. The amount paid comes to just short of a fifth of what we owe.

 

According to Bailiff co, the council have only put the account on hold untill 4/01 and the little eager beavers will be ringing them at one second past nine on Monday to see if they can "come and get us" so now I need to get writing back to the council.

 

The councils stance is that if they recall the bailiffs they can then only use bancruptcy or a charging order to enforce payment. They are therefore prepared to allow us to be subjected to visits from bully boys despite the fact that we are making regular sustantial payments directly to them.

 

So I will write back to the council again re-iterating that we will not deal with the bully boys and wait and see what happens.

 

The last couple of weeks respite has been lovely and I am so not looking forward to going back to the, will they or wont they bang on the door today life

[hallowitch]

The councils stance is that if they recall the bailiffs they can then only use bankruptcy or a charging order to enforce payment.

 

they can use an attachment of earnings (not that you would want that) but this is another option a council can use

[Nintendo Pü]

There is no law obligating you to trade with bailiffs, your liability is to the council so you should pay the council as soon as the money becomes due and get a receipt.

If a bailiff turns up then make sure you keep them out, show a copy of the receipt confirming you have discharged your liability, and ask the bailiff to quietly leave your property.

If the council intentionally and deliberately prevents you discharging your liability then you can ask the court to dismiss any future bankruptcy, charging order and committal proceeding.

[Nintendo Pü]

 

they can use an attachment of earnings (not that you would want that) but this is another option a council can use

 

The Authority will have explored attachment of earnings before applying for a liability order and bailiff action.

[hallowitch]

you must owe at least a £1000 before they can go for a charging order (did they tell you that)

 

Charging orders

© at the time that the application under this regulation is made at least £1000 of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made remains outstanding

[crockie]

The councils stance is that if they recall the bailiffs they can then only use bankruptcy or a charging order to enforce payment.

 

they can use an attachment of earnings (not that you would want that) but this is another option a council can use

 

They cant get an attachment of earnings as I do not work and OH is self employed.

 

If either of us were employed then I would have put up with an attachment, OK it's not great but the sooner the debt is paid the better in my eyes.

 

I am thankfull that we are in a position to pay regular payments now, just a few months ago we would have been lucky to be able to offer a fifth of the weekly payments that we are now paying.

 

Just doesnt seem fair that they can still let the bailiffs chase us when we ARE now paying and if everything goes as planned this debt of over £2500 will be paid off before the next 2010-2011 bill becomes due.

[ploddertom]

The councils stance is that if they recall the bailiffs they can then only use bankruptcy or a charging order to enforce payment.

 

they can use an attachment of earnings (not that you would want that) but this is another option a council can use

 

Can't do that as Posters OH is self employed

 

 

PT

[hallowitch]

The councils stance is that if they recall the bailiffs they can then only use bankruptcy or a charging order to enforce payment

 

 

i was simply making a comment that councils have other options apart from bankruptcy or a charging order if a debt it recalled from the bailiffs

[crockie]

you must owe at least a £1000 before they can go for a charging order (did they tell you that)

 

Charging orders

© at the time that the application under this regulation is made at least £1000 of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made remains outstanding

 

Sorry Hallowitch, I didnt see this.

 

No they didnt mention this

 

Is there a certain amount we have to owe to enable them to proceed with Bancuptcy ?

[crockie]

There is no law obligating you to trade with bailiffs, your liability is to the council so you should pay the council as soon as the money becomes due and get a receipt.

 

If a bailiff turns up then make sure you keep them out, show a copy of the receipt confirming you have discharged your liability, and ask the bailiff to quietly leave your property.

 

If the council intentionally and deliberately prevents you discharging your liability then you can ask the court to dismiss any future bankruptcy, charging order and committal proceeding.

 

The council is happy to accept our payments and has said that they will ring the bailiff office each week and tell them how much we have paid but they will not stop the bailiff calling

 

Hell will freeze over before a Bailiff gets even an eye lash in my house.

[Nintendo Pü]

To be honest, I dont think you have a problem.

 

If a bailiff turns up at yuor address and gets over-zealous, then you will have a right to make a complaint of misfeasance to the Local Government Ombudsman.

[hallowitch]

Is there a certain amount we have to owe to enable them to proceed with Bankruptcy ?

 

i don't know what the amount a debtor has to owe before a creditor can start bankruptcy proceedings

but I think its a expensive road to go down for the creditor

[crockie]

Thanks for your help everyone

 

I guess we will just have to sit back and wait and see if the council really will let the bully boys come calling.

[crockie]

Well I have received another email from the council today and they will not take the account back or put any action on hold to allow us to make payments to them.

They have said that if we are unhappy with this response then we need to move to the next stage in the complaints procedure.

 

So I am now busy trying to fill in an online complaint form

[Nintendo Pü]

Before you complete that complaint form, let see of the council has followed procedure, and if not, you can have enforcement action stopped.

 

The law requires the council to send you a "final Notice" at your current address or your last known address before instructing a bailiff. If the council fails to comply with the law you can ask the council to take the case back into town hall administration and no bailiffs fees are lawfully due.

 

Regulation 33(1) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

 

 

33.—(1) Subject to paragraph (3), before a billing authority applies for a liability order it shall serve on the person against whom the application is to be made a notice ("final notice"), which is to be in addition to any notice required to be served under Part V, and which is to state every amount in respect of which the authority is to make the application.

 

 

Regulation 34 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

 

 

(2) The application is to be instituted by making complaint to a justice of the peace, and requesting the issue of a summons directed to that person to appear before the court to show why he has not paid the sum which is outstanding.

 

 

 

Did you receive these documents from the coluncil before bailiffs turned up. if not then the law - Section 7 of the Interpretation Act says

 

 

Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then,unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

 

 

You now have a right to ask the Local Government Ombudsman order the council to pay you compensation for misfeasance. awards for non-compliance with enforcement regulations are typically about £100 per case.

[crockie]

 

I know that we received the Liability Order back in June. Not sure what we received before that. I will hunt to see what I can find.

 

One query I have raised with them is that we havent received anything after the Liability order, so nothing since June. Yet everywhere I have looked for info it says that they have to send a 14 day warning that they are going to send to bailiffs. When I asked the council about this they said that they have a paragraph on the back of the liability order that states further action may now be taken without notice and this excludes them from sending the 14 day letter.

[Nintendo Pü]

They are right, once the liable order is recieved by the authority, they dont have to send you any letters, and neither does the bailiff.

 

All the liablility order does is legalise the debt for enforcement. It can be used to instruct bailiffs, apply for charging order, commital proceeding and bank arrestments. A LO is not needed to deduct money from salary from an employer or benefits.