Council Tax bailiffs first visit - where do I go from here **WON**

[crockie]

Hi there

 

If you've got reasonable grounds - and get some help on this one you can really Hoze up the whole works by applying for Council Tax relief -- this will invalidate any order whilst THIS process is going on - and coming up to XMAS your council is unlikely to be operating at "Full Speed".

 

Also if the Council refuse payment at first just keep a copy of the letter offering payment that you sent to the council -- they HAVE to take the debt back again after 90 days from the date on the Liability order (NULLO BONO) and BY LAW they HAVE TO COLLECT THE TAX. - Just ignore the automotons who can only mouth over and over again "Unfortunately -- this has been passed to the Bailiff's so we cant accept payment" or other totally bovine remarks like that.

 

 

Already working on the possiblity of caliming benefit.

 

Already paid over £100 on line direct to council this monring, got copy of receipt. Cant imagine they are going to give it back lol.

[jimbo45]

Hi there

Also send a RECORDED DELIVERY letter to the council that you have started paying enclosing a copy of your receipt you got from the online system.

 

It's not totally unknown for some really BOVINE type Councils to actually return the money in the first instance - so you need some proper proof that you've actually attempted to pay if the whole saga runs to the full conclusion with the Bailiff doing something really stupid like saying you can go to jail if you don't pay up.

 

No court (yet even in Today's Feudal Britain) will send you to prison for ATTEMPTING to pay.

 

Sometimes people on the Council have contacts with the Bailiff companies - so who knows where "the profits" are going - and will try this B/S first of refusing the bill.

 

THEY MUST EVENTUALLY TAKE IT BACK.

 

Good luck with getting the relief -- however if you can afford to pay back 100 GBP a week your chances might not be that good

 

If you are claiming relief I'd reduce your offer of payment to say 30 GBP a month or so. - However if you CAN pay - just do it (and NOT TO THE BAILIFF'S) and get these wretched miserable vermins away for ever.

 

cheers

jimbo

[crockie]

Hi there

Also send a RECORDED DELIVERY letter to the council that you have started paying enclosing a copy of your receipt you got from the online system.

 

Good luck with getting the relief -- however if you can afford to pay back 100 GBP a week your chances might not be that good

 

If you are claiming relief I'd reduce your offer of payment to say 30 GBP a month or so. - However if you CAN pay - just do it (and NOT TO THE BAILIFF'S) and get these wretched miserable vermins away for ever.

 

What we can AFFORD to pay is very different to what we will pay to ensure that this debt is cleared in the quickest possible time

 

My OH is self employed and will work more hours to enable us to make the payments to the council. This wont give us much of a family life but then we wont have much of a life anyway whilst this is hanging over our heads.

 

At the moment based on the hours he currently works and the income he makes we would be entitled to CT benefit.

 

We have made such as high offer as an offer I made in May was refused by the council. At that time I offered them £50 per week off the same debt, their answer was that they would accept £30 off the arrears but that they would only accept full payments for the current year, meaning that our payments would have been between £240-£270 per month, at that time we just didnt have that kind of money.

 

So in a min or to I will email a copy receipt over to council and also send a recorded delivery copy.

[jimbo45]

What we can AFFORD to pay is very different to what we will pay to ensure that this debt is cleared in the quickest possible time

 

At the moment based on the hours he currently works and the income he makes we would be entitled to CT benefit.

 

.....................

 

 

So in a min or to I will email a copy receipt over to council and also send a recorded delivery copy.

 

 

If you feel you are entitled to CT benefit apply for it.

 

There is 100% NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED ON IN APPLYING FOR BENEFIT.

Nobody should EVER have to pay more than they are by LAW required to -- just look at INCOME TAX threads - the amount of unclaimed Income Tax relief absolutely staggers belief.

 

NO STIGMA is attached to getting or even applying for Benefit -- it's small enough in the UK as it is but in the words of one of our big Supermarkets " Every little bit helps".

 

Don't get put off just because there are scroungers out there collecting THOUSANDS of pounds.

 

If you are entitled to it IT'S YOUR RIGHT.

 

Once you give up - THEY - the BULLIES / THUGS and other people who in general just try and make life a misery for every one else HAVE WON.

 

You can still keep paying what you want to while your claim is going through -- You will then be able to apply for a refund.

 

Cheers

jimbo

[wonkeydonkey]

Now now Jimbo, it is after all "the season of good will"

I will follow ploddertom and "TREAT MY BAILIFF-and STUFF HIM" for I will enjoy slicing and serving him up on a plate....

 

WD

[hallowitch]

6am - the council received their first payment via their online system. I don't want to give exact figures on here because you never know who is reading but I am offering over £100 per week to clear this debt

 

hehehehe I never leave my door open when I put the bin out because I have a BIG dog lol.

 

My point about the fees is that if they are already taking the p*** by charges two lots of fees instead of one then I have a stick to hit the council with when they say no to my offer.

 

I am sure that they will tell me that this is a different company etc and they are law abiding etc - not the case if they are already overcharging me.

 

So - CAN THEY CHARGE 2 x £24.50 FOR SHOVING TWO LETTERS THROUGH MY DOOR IF THEY ARE COLLECTING FOR TWO BILLS?

 

I am surprised that they never made any effort to contact me via post before sticking letters through my door!!

 

 

they cant charge you 2 sets of fees for collecting 2 debts at the same time

[crockie]

they cant charge you 2 sets of fees for collecting 2 debts at the same time

 

Hallowitch, I cant find anything on any website that says they cant do this. Could you possibly point me in the direction of something that I can print out to confirm this.

 

I am sure that my council will tell me to get stuffed so I am hoping that as soon as they do I can go straight in to bat by saying that Bailff co are already overcharging me by charging £24.50 per liability order despite that fact thay they have only called once.

 

Also re the vehicles and HP . I have contacted HP co for car and am awaiting copy docs from them. Would it help if I HPI'd both vehicles and kept copies so that if necessary I could either show that both are subject to finance agreements? Also have a copy of Hackney Carriage Licence for taxi which should surely stop them in their tracks if they try and go near that.

 

Thank you everyone for you help

 

Despite having another sleepless night I do feel better today, I have my camera ready, I have paid money direct to council, emailed council and stuck great big signs on my front door and gate to tell any prospective visitors that I have a big dog lol oh and I HAVENT CONTACTED THE BAILIFFS

[hallowitch]

Detailed Assessment Judgment of Throssell v Leeds City Council where the District Judge ruled as follows:

“Turning to the taxation it seems to me that notwithstanding the fact that there were three liability orders but one visit was made by one bailiff and the maximum that the Council’s reasonable charges can be is the result of applying the formula contained in Schedule 5 paragraph 2 (1) (b) of the Regulations”

 

they cannot charge so many fees if only one visit is made

[jimbo45]

Hi there

I still think the best plan is to sit this one out until NULLO BONO.

If they can't get in then Nothing to pay.

 

You COULD request the council for a copy of the Liability order - give some excuse as to say you need to confirm the amount you owe / check against unlawful charges etc etc. Probably a good idea.

 

If the Council don't oblige then I'm sure this must be some sort of offence -- as the "Defendent" i.e YOU have to be given a copy of any Court Judgement made against you (excluding I think cases where "Terrorism" and National Security are involved).

 

Shouldn't be an issue with CT demands - but with the UK threatening such "dangerous countries to World Peace like Iceland of all places" with International Terrorism after their Banks went Bust who knows what crass stupidity is on offer now.

 

From the DATE on THE ORDER (not the Bailiff's Letter) add 90 Days on and then the council MUST take back the debt.

 

Until the law is changed (thak goodness there's an election coming up - since a proposal is in place to amend existing regulations to allow forced entry for Council Tax bailiff's --what a Country we are becoming) then you DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH THESE BULLIES IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM.

 

The Election thank goodness has scuppered (for the moment) the Bailiff's powers amendment but it could be back on the books again depending on who wins.

 

When you get all the election rubbish through your door ask ALL the parties about this Law and vote accordingly. (Assuming most of the cretins who stand even know ANYTHING about this in the first place).

 

Cheers

jimbo.

[crockie]

From the DATE on THE ORDER (not the Bailiff's Letter) add 90 Days on and then the council MUST take back the debt.

 

umm now I am confused

 

The Liability Order I have for 2009/2010 is dated 30.06.2009. The Liability Order was actually granted on 24.06.09, this was a month after I had made a reasonable offer and they had refused it.

 

I will hunt arround for the 2008/2009 one will be dated in 2008 sometime.

 

I have never actually had a letter which states that they are sending the Bailiffs in, the lady I spoke to at the council said that the following paragraph on the back of the liability order means that they do not have to send me the 14 day letter.

 

"You may at this time make an offer to the Council to clear your arrears, however acceptance of this offer is at the discretion of the Council and action to recover the arrears may be taken without further notice to you. If you wish to discuss this matter please contact te Recovery Section on ******"

 

???

[jimbo45]

Hi there

Well the Bailiff's just can't march in without showing SOME LEGAL AUTHORITY -- just send to the council a letter requesting the authority for sending in the BAILIFF'S.

 

The people manning the phones won't know - they just read from "prepared scripts".

 

Don't admit you haven't paid CT etc etc. Just request the legal mandate the council has for sending "their Dogs in". They HAVE to give it - they are acting on authority from the Court so you have a right to see it.

 

Otherwise what's to stop me saying I've got a Court order to remove XXXXX but don't have to show you the order. - Think of the fun some people would have with that one.

 

I'll look for the case of the 90 days -- and I think also (but need to check) that a Bailiff for CT can only attempt to visit a certain number of times -- not sure on that one BTW but certainly an excessive number of attempts can be classed as Harassment.

 

 

Another one is that if you DO make an offer with the Bailiff - but do it through a Letterbox etc - don't let them in is to make an offer you KNOW won't be accepted.

 

* Bailiffs cannot send you to prison. If the bailiffs have never been into your home and they will not accept your offer, all they can do is to pass your debt back to the council. It is important to make an arrangement to pay the council, or they may try other ways of recovering the money.................

 

 

For Visits

 

 

Will I get advance notice of a bailiff visit and fees?

From 1 April 1998, local authorities must send you a letter giving 14 days notice of a proposed bailiff visit to collect council tax. County court bailiffs must issue a warning notice allowing 7 days for you to pay

 

 

For Complaints

 

How can I complain about a bailiff?

Depending on the type of complaint you want to make, you can complain to the person who instructed the bailiff, for example a local authority, the county court (if the bailiff is certificated or a county court bailiff) or a trade association. See below for how to get help making a complaint.

Most private bailiffs will also belong to a trade association, all of whom have complaints and grievance procedures you can use. The main trade associations are the Certificated Bailiffs Association (CBA) and the Association of Civil Enforcement Agencies (ACEA).

CBA can be contacted by writing to:

c/o Ridgefield House

14 John Dalton Street

MANCHESTER

M2 6JR

tl: 0161 839 7225

ACEA can be contacted by writing to:

Chesham House

150 Regent Street

LONDON

W1R 5FA

 

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited December 11, 2009 by jimbo45

[crockie]

Thank you so much for your help Jimbo.

 

I have just spent the last 15 mins HPI' ing our two vehicles

 

I now have two Experian Auto Check reports which show the vehicles details, the fact that they are currently subject to finance, finance companies name, phone number and agreement number.

 

So I think I am now reasonably armed should the dimwits turn up but what I would really like to do is apply more pressure to the council.

 

When I kicked up holy stink last year (with the help of this very forum) I was told by Mr Nice (he was actually nice) that no one knew how to deal with my complaint because no one had ever been brave enough to complain to my council before.

 

When my children are older I would love to volunteer at CAB and help a few more people in my area stand up for themselves.

 

This weekend will be spent removing nice garden furniture from the garden, just in case dimwits are brave enough to chance whether the "dog running loose" sign is for real.

[crockie]

Have been reading through as many threads as I possibly can to find anyway of getting the council to back off.

 

I have read that according to the Local Government Finance Act and Council Tax Administration and Enforcement regs if you either pay the authority in full before goods are levied or you make offer of payment then they have to accept your offer and recall the case from the Bailiffs.

 

Can anyone confirm if these are the appropriate sections -

 

Termination of proceedings

 

17 (1) Regulations under paragraph 1(1) above may provide that in a case where—

(a) proceedings under the regulations have been taken as regards the recovery of any sum mentioned in paragraph 1(1) above; and

(b) the outstanding amount is paid or tendered to the authority to which it is payable;

the authority shall accept the amount, no further steps shall be taken as regards its recovery, and any person committed to prison in pursuance of the proceedings shall be released.

(2) The outstanding amount is an amount equal to the sum concerned or to so much of it as remains outstanding (as the case may be).

(3) In a case where costs and charges are relevant the outstanding amount shall be treated as augmented by a sum (of a prescribed amount or an amount determined in accordance with prescribed rules) in respect of costs and charges incurred in the proceedings up to the time of payment or tender.

 

 

Distress

45.—(1) Where a liability order has been made, the authority which applied for the order may levy the appropriate amount by distress and sale of the goods of the debtor against whom the order was made.

 

 

(2) The appropriate amount for the purposes of paragraph (1) is the aggregate of—

• (a) an amount equal to any outstanding sum which is or forms part of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made, and
  

• (b) a sum determined in accordance with Schedule 5 in respect of charges connected with the distress.
  

(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

 

(4) Where an authority has seized goods of the debtor in pursuance of the distress, but before sale of those goods the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount, the sale shall not be proceeded with and the goods shall be made available for collection by the debtor

 

 

Eeekkk I have square eyes from all this reading but I will do anything to ensure that my children and I feel safe in OUR home and we wont untill this is sorted

 

Feels like one thing another at the moment, have spent the last few months sorting out the mortgage, phone bill (necessary evil for OH business) and electricity account which had got to the stage of them applying for a warrant to cut us off.

Edited December 12, 2009 by crockie

[jimbo45]

Hi there

You've done your bit

and PLEASE DO APPLY for any CT benefit you feel you are entitled to -- plenty of advice on the other sections.

 

Now go to the pub -- have a nice STRONG GLASS of whatever and just forget about these vermin. If they bang on the door again just turn the TV sound up or whatever. Move your car(s) just in case.

 

Pay the council a REASONABLE amount -- if they don't like it then let them threaten to summons you and turn up in the magistrates court if they continue with the bovine tactics. The case will probably go NOWHERE near a court - will be settled long before then as you are not attempting to AVOID payment.

 

People are often SCARED of these courts but you've showed a willingness to pay and a Magistrate is often a lot more sympathetic than a Council so you'll probably get the payment arrangement reduced or even a help with getting Benefit.

 

If the council refuse then go the whole hog -- you won't have to pay the costs since it's the COUNCIL who are refusing the money - not you in paying it and the Court will only make you pay what you can afford.

 

You might even enjoy your day as you will have "Socked it to them" in knowing they can't get away with pushing people around any more. The magistrate is usually sympathetic at people who've been harassed by these bullies -- especially if the previous case before yours is one where the magistrate has had to deal with a REAL Criminal.

 

Even in Feudal Britain I haven't heard of anyone being sent to jail because they've ATTEMPTED TO PAY.

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited December 12, 2009 by jimbo45

[crockie]

.

 

Now go to the pub -- have a nice STRONG GLASS of whatever and just forget about these vermin. If they bang on the door again just turn the TV sound up or whatever. Move your car(s) just in case.

 

Pub now that's a lovely thought, however I have 3 childen 10, 7 and 9 months. My older two children were stood in the hall next to me when Mr Bully oh sorry I mean Bailiff tried to push past me in 2008 and the police were called. Mr daughter is still worried now when people knock at the door.

 

I am trying to do anything I can possibly can to sock it to the council NOW before it gets to the stage of Bailiffs blocking my drive with their vans and shouting through the letter box

 

Whilst I understand that the debt needs to be paid and we are willing to pay I do not see that my children should be made to suffer due to our inability to pay earlier.

 

If I had any idea how to post links then I would post a link to my thread from September 2008.

[jimbo45]

Hi there

Another good Idea

Just remove your Door bell or jam it so it doesn't ring.

Your friends etc can always use a mobile phone to call you if they are coming round and the door bell is broken.

 

It's good practice in any case NEVER to open the door without looking say from a Window first or whatever -- even if you've got no Bailiff or other probs whatsoever.

 

Just explain to your kids this is common sense and they can just ignore any knock on the door without checking first.

 

You can teach them about the Postman / Milkman (if you still have one) etc.

 

Cheers

jimbo

[crockie]

use the template letter and amend it so that its council you are offering payment to

 

ask the finance company to send you a copy of the finance agreement when you receive it send it to the bailiffs and put them on notice that you have now provided proof that the car is on finance and therefore no enforcement action can be taken against the vehicle

do you have business insurance on the other car or can you get a copy of the HP agreement to send to the bailiffs

 

Hallowitch

 

I am still waiting for the agreement from finance company, but after seeing all the various Welscum threads on here I can understand their reluctance to send our agreement to us

 

Oh I would so love to get into the Welcome one but at the moment we have come to a pretty good arrangement with them so will leave it on the back burner.

 

I now have HPI's for both vehicles which clearly show all the various finance details, along with finance statement for the car and proof of business use for the other vehicle. Is it best to send these to Bailiff co along with a letter telling them I am paying council.

 

I was going to wait untill they come on their second visit and pass the letter through the letter box presuming that I am in.

 

Or is just plain ignoring them the best strategy?

 

My only fear is that if I dont provide them with proof that they cant take any action against the vehicles then they will take action and I have to get that action undone.

 

But if I give them the vehicle details in advance then they know what they are looking for :-?

 

Sorry for all the questions but forewarned is forearmed and they will be back this week.

[hallowitch]

I now have HPI's for both vehicles which clearly show all the various finance details, along with finance statement for the car and proof of business use for the other vehicle. Is it best to send these to Bailiff co along with a letter telling them I am paying council

 

send copys of them to the bailiffs and the council putting them both on notice that you will hold them both fully responsible if any enforcement action is taken against said vehicles as you have now provided proof that both vehicles are on finance and one if a work tool

put this at the bottom of both letters

please put this letter in my file so it can referred to in future if necessary

 

send recorded delivery

the letter you send to the council copy to the bailiffs the letter you send to the bailiffs copy to the council

=================================================

I am still waiting for the agreement from finance company, but after seeing all the various Welcome threads on here I can understand their reluctance to send our agreement to us

 

Oh I would so love to get into the Welcome one but at the moment we have come to a pretty good arrangement with them so will leave it on the back burner.

 

yes and i bet your arrangement is in welcomes favour postggi is the man for the job he just loves welcome finance

[crockie]

Hallowitch

 

Thank you for your help once again, letters going off tomorrow.

 

As for Welscum to be honest Id say it;s 50/50.

 

I have managed to get in excess of £7000 removed from 2 agreements, I reckon one of them we could use to wipe the floor with them but if I were to put any details on here then I have no doubt that we would be recognised immediately not that we have in any way caused them any mither or anything.

 

We get no phonecalls, no letters, no home visits at the moment

[crockie]

Totally fed up today

 

I have sent off letter to Bailiffs and copy to council and other than man the barricades I dont think that there is much else I can do now.

 

My poor son isnt well and wasnt well yesterday but I am sending him to school anyway in the hope that he will avoid the next visit which should be due today/tomorrow.

 

If I was intentionally avoiding paying CT then I could understand all this but we had other priority debts to deal with, it's no good paying CT if I havent got a house and it's no good having a house without an electricity supply

[crockie]

This is like some kind of torture

 

Still no response from the Council, not even a NO.

 

Not heard anything from Bailiffs yet, which although obviously I dont want them to come back, the very fact that they havent yet just has me on permanent tender hooks.

 

Someone put a flyer through my door yesterday and just the sound of the letter box had me shaking from head to toe, I was allmost sick with fright

[crockie]

Well still no letter from the Council, however I have today received a response from Bailiff co.

 

I could really do with some help drafting a response to this lot as to be honest I am amazed at the contents of the letter which to me seems to be saying that they can charge two visit fees because there are two liability orders, despite the fact they have only made ONE visit so far. They are also trying to tell me that they can just come and remove what they like, when they like.

 

My scanner has decided to pack up so have typed letter out for you. They have also enclosed a copy of charges connected with distress.

 

I refer to your correspondence dated **** addressed to our client, a copy of which has been forwarded to us for consideration and response. Please note that the letter dated *** addressed to **** has not been received.

 

I have noted your comments within your letter and recogonise part of the content, which appears to be a format available for download. However I do accept that the standard format has been expanded upon by you, with supplementary documentation provided in an effort to substantiate your comments.

 

I appreciate that within your letter you have stated that you will not allow peaceful entry nor allow us to seize goods. I would hope that you are aware that having been instructed to enforce 2 liability orders, your comments would not prevent further recovery action nor fees being applied as permitted within statute for those further attempts unless our client, ****** instructed us to delay or cancel recovery action. To assist further, we do not require your consent to seize goods and in the absence of a walking possession agreement being signed and/or full payment being tendered, immediate removal action and the fees for such is permitted by law.

 

To date one visit has taken place with the outcome being that we did not gain a response, nor had any access to goods to seize. You have incurred £24.50 per liability order for this visit and in so total fees of £49 have been added to your accounts at the point. Attached is a copy of the legislation that permits these fees to be applied.

 

We have noted the evidence you have provided relating to the vehicles and should we proceed to the stage where seizure of either of them was being considered, we would verify the evidence by way of our own checks.

 

We have been instructed by our client to suspend receovery action untill 4th January 2009 (yes they have put 2009) at present. We shall seek their further instructions at that point if we have not already been advised as to how to proceed.

 

I trust that the above assists but should you require anything further please do not hesitate to document this.

 

 

Whilst I am happy that I can enjoy christmas with my children, I dont really want this hanging over my head for the new year.

 

By the time this is reviewed on 4/1/10, we will have paid five payments directly to the council which will equate to allmost a fifth of the amount we owe.

 

HELP PLEASE!!!!!

[crockie]

Also just noticed that the very document they have sent to prove their charges also states that they cant take our work vehicle

[Nintendo Pü]

Hallowich has a comprehensive list of goods that cannot be taken by bailiffs.

 

I havnt read your thread in detail, but from your last post, I cant find anything suggesting the bailiff has acted unlawfully. I cant find anything in the legislation saying the bailiff cannot charge multiple (statutory) visit fees for simultanious visits, but Its not allowed when a bailiff is collecting multiple unpaid parking tickets at the same address.

 

Have you been through the official advice channels?

 

insolvency helpling about bailiffs Debt Basics - Bailiff Guide - know your rights

 

This is the Official advice on council tax bailiffs: National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 02 Bailiffs And Council Tax but don't waste your energy complaining to bailiffs trade associations. They are NOT industry regulators.

 

If you need help from a professional body in dealing with bailiffs then Z2K might be able to help. Supporting Vulnerable Households | Z2K Zacchaeus 2000 Trust

 

The Citizens Advice Bureau has a page full of good advice Council tax arrears - good practice protocol

 

You could be classed a vulnerable person for the purposes of civil enforcement. Department for Constitutional Affairs - Enforcement - National Standards for Enforcement Agents but its not legally binding, only the sort of material a journalist at your local rag would find useful if bailiffs contradict the national stands guidelines.

 

The law prescribing bailiffs fees for collecting unpaid council tax is the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and provides £24.50 for a first visit. He can charge a further £18 for a second visit (if genuinely made). No other bailiff's fees can lawfully be charged if a bailiff has not moved your goods in a vehicle and you have not signed any document consenting to a levy or a walking possessions agreement (currently a flat rate of £10).

[hallowitch]

Detailed Assessment Judgment of Throssell v Leeds City Council where the District Judge ruled as follows:

“Turning to the taxation it seems to me that notwithstanding the fact that there were three liability orders but one visit was made by one bailiff and the maximum that the Council’s reasonable charges can be is the result of applying the formula contained in Schedule 5 paragraph 2 (1) (b) of the Regulations”

 

they cannot charge so many fees if only one visit is made