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Nat West Loan - help

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Hi,

 

I have a loan of £25k with Nat West that was taken out November 2008. We ran into financial difficulties earlier this year and to cut a long story short, haven't been able to make payments, so this is now with Irwin Mitchell, the solicitors acting on behalf of Nat West.

 

They have given us 2 choices - £451 per month for 5 years or a CCJ against us. We are really keen not to get a CCJ as it could have a detrimental effect on my job, but equally can't afford £451 a month, as we have other creditors and could only manage about £200 across them all.

 

I have contacted other creditors where the debt preceded April 2007 and seem to be making a bit of progress in (not) receiving CCAs and incorrect CCAs. My questions are as follows:

 

1. Is there any value in asking for a CCA or SAR from Nat West at this late stage as the loan is post April 2007?

2. Are the solicitors serious about no flexibility on the monthly payments of £451 or are they playing hardball?

3. Anything else we could do that we may not have thought of?

 

Many thanks.

 

PS. We need to get back to them by Thursday 10th with a definite answer.

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Do you own your home or any other expensive assets, I assume the debt is not secured.

 

If the answer to these questions is no, then I would suggest that they are playing hardball asyou put it.

Edited by Crocdoc

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Hi,

 

This has moved on a bit so I would appreciate any advice. The letter from Irwin Mitchell gave me 14 days to pay in full. I phoned after a couple of days and was told that I could accept their proposal of £451 per month if I couldn't pay in full, but there were no other options available.

 

I then realised that the total debt is made up of loan and overdraft. I don't dispute the loan, but I do dispute the overdraft, as it is made up of bank charges and interest on bank charges, so I wrote back asking for a subject access request so that we could ascertain exactly how much I do owe.

 

The 14th day was 10th December, so I emailed Irwin Mitchell to let them know I was sending a letter guranteed next day delivery. I figured that an email would provide an audit trail that I had at least got back to them within 14 days.

 

I asked for the SAR to be forwarded to Nat West and was hoping that we would be able to clear up the dispute, but I have just received CCJ paperwork from Northampton.

 

Not sure what to do next - do I dispute some of the claim on the CCJ form (even though I don't know how much is in dispute at the moment) or do I contact the solicitors?

 

In addition, the CCJ paperwork is in my name only, so I expect further paperwork addressed to my wife in the next couple of days. I have asked Irwin Mitchell to treat this as one claim as we make joint financial decisions, but they don't seem to be doing it.

 

Any advice would be great as 14 days from the date of the letter is Christmas Day.

 

Thanks

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Hi

 

I am going through exactly the same.

 

I couldnt pay my natwest loan and two current account overdrafts. My bank manager didnt want to know and the credit managment services department told me i should consider bankrupcy. So much for a caring bank eh?

 

Shakespeare Putsman Solicitors gave us the same ultimatum, sign a consent order promising to pay £500pm or face a CCJ.

 

Whilst contemplating what to do the court papers arrived.

 

If you sign the acknowledgment of service paper and send it back to the court it will allow you 28 days to decide your options.

 

Upon replying to the court papers i didnt admit to any of the amounts quoted (if you admit to the loan amount the solicitors can ask for judgment to be made on that amount) i then filed a defence and counterclaim for bank charges, stating i couldnt agree to the figures quoted as they were made up of unfair charges.

 

At each stage natwest solicitors have played hardball so you will have a fight on your hands if you proceed with any court action.

 

I am currently requesting a list of documents from natwest to support my case which has a court date for June 2010.

 

The recent Supreme Court ruling on bank charges has not been good, and natwest solicitors have written inviting me to throw in the towel, however i am now quoting Regulation 5 as my defence and watching with bated breath to see what the OFT decide to do.

 

If i can be of further help just let me know as i understand what you are dealing with, but most of all dont let the Bas###ds grind you down!!!

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Thanks for your response.

 

Is the acknowlegement of service the only form that needs sending back at this point?

 

I have been told by the National Debtline that disputing bank charges is dead in the water now, so they don't seem to think this is a good basis to contest the amount of the debt. I am hoping that SAR may throw up some other stuff, as I don't recall receiving notification that they were going to close down my account, etc.

 

Was your loan pre April 2007? I assume that if it was, you have asked for them for a CCA? If my loan was pre April 2007 I would feel a bit easier as this forum seems to suggest that NatWest CCAs pre April 2007 ca sometimes be unenforceable.

 

I just wish they would give me 3 months to get our there and start earning some money, because a lot of my emotional energy is tied up in reacting to Nat West at the moment.

 

Any other tips you may have would be greatly appreciated.

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OK

 

First things first, you only need to send back the aknowledgment of service at the moment (you can even do it online) this will give you 28 days from the date of service to respond to the rest of it.

 

I am still fairly confident about the bank charges issue (i have to be), as the supreme court suggested other avenues for the oft to investigate. They wouldnt have said that if it were not the case. Also Martin Lewis at moneysavingexpert.com has employed a QC to look into other avenues available, they are currently investigating the consumer credit act for possible breaches.

 

As my case is not due to be heard until June i am hoping that we will have some answeres by then. This is an issue which could go on for years so either my case will be put on hold or a judge may make a decision an the case (hopefully in my favour).

 

We took out our loan in June 2008, it was a consolidation loan to pay off previous loan and overdraft. By September 2008 we could no longer afford it as the credit crunch had hit my business. I am investigating whether the bank acted irresponsibly in granting us a loan which we could not afford just 4 months later, and i am using that as part of the defence.

 

Natwest should have sent you a default notice and then a termination notice of your accounts. If they havent this may be a possible line of defence as they have not complied with pre action protocols.

 

My advice (only my opinion) would be to send in the acknowlegment of service, by all means ask for a subject access request (you never know what it may throw up), then relax over Xmas. You then have 28 days to see what the OFT are going to do about the bank charges issue (they have promised a response in December sometime). If they do persue other avenues then start a counterclaim for your charges.

 

Alternetively you could file a defence on the basis of the SAR if anything crops up.

 

All this will at least buy you time.

 

The banks have a duty to try and settle out of court so there will be plenty of opportunity for you to reach an agreement with them should you wish to do so.

 

Chin up!!!

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Hi Gemby,

 

So if the court papers are dated 11/12, I can acknowledge online and then get back them with a defence by 08/01? And if Nat West don't produce an SAR, presumably the case can be stayed until they do?

 

Like you I have been following Moneysavingexpert and am hopeful for another angle on bank charges because the amounts are outrageous.

 

Is the few months wait until the actual court hearing fairly standard? I really feel like if I had 3 months to get my head down without expending emotional energy on creditors, I could turn my business around and start getting some money in, which I could then use to agree a satisfactory payment plan.

 

The other angles I am thinking about at the moment are:

 

1. unenforceable CCA (snowball in hell, but you never know)

2. lack of termination notice

3. lack of default notice

4. other creditors who may be looking at a CCJ route and the court's view on whether Nat West should take priority.

 

I'll try to enjoy Christmas and not let Nat Worst rob me of my joy!

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If you think you can turn things around and offer a payment plan further down the line, it may well be worth talking to your creditors to arrange some sort of deal. It is not in their interests to seek court action. Natwests solicitors have to go back to Natwest with any proposals you put forward. You could ask for a payment plan with a 3 month deferred payment for example. They may require you to sign a consent order though which will legally tie you to any agreement.

 

Alternetively you will need to come up with a defence or counterclaim.

 

Is there any chance you were mis sold the loan? Were the bank fully aware of your financial position? Did they know about your other creditors?

 

I think the bank charges counterclaim could be your best route. It may even be worth you writing to the solicitors to explain that you intend to counterclaim for bank charges unless they are more willing to negatiate.

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Hi

I am Another one the same...Irwin Mitchel -nat wests solicitors taking me to court for a loand and Overdraft totalling 27000. Funny thing is they cant find y agreement -shame. they havnt replied to 4 letters of complaint.

 

their 12 plus 2 days to send their copy agreement is up tommorow 23 december. wonder if they will bother sending any reply.

 

Reported the little darlings ( Nat west ) to Bacs as they refused to cancel a direct debit ! and even had the cheak to confirm they refused to cancel it in writing. bacs seeing natwest whenever. Not sure whether to complain to fsa ? / oft ? fos ?

 

They are completey refusing to even reply to letters of complaint. Wont even confirm they have received cca request ( mind you one of their people confimred they had it last week on the phone) they refused to acept that I was who i said i was - insisted on seeing ID and wanted a signature - refused to give that just let em have a look at my pasport.

 

One question - has anyone been taken to court from nat west for this sort of thing on a loan where no information given by the creditor.?

can they produce the agreement and information from thin air at the court without me seening the evidence first ?

Getting a bit twitchy about all this- sent an embarrassed defence and copies of my complaint letters.

 

loads of us in the same boat !

 

Rob

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Hi,

 

When did you take out your loan? I have a credit card also with Nat West where I asked for a CCA and they wrote back stating that they didn't have it and that basically they wouldn't be able to take me to court, although they urged me to continue making payments!

 

If you have a pre-April 2007 loan and they have not supplied an agreement yet, hopefully they won't just pull it out of the bag later on. Other people on this site have generally seemed to suggest that Nat West are quite slack at keeping copies of old agreements.

 

I phoned Irwin Mitchell the other day to check that they had received my SAR, but they said they hadn't, even though I have the guaranteed delivery slip to prove it had been sent and Royal Mail have confirmed the name of the person who signed for it.

 

I also had a DD problem with Nat West where they forcibly transferred my monthly loan payment back in February from my current account to the loan account, knowing that the current account was in overdraft and that additional charges would be incurred.

 

I am going to submit the acknowledge of service online as Gemby suggested and give it a week or so think about the next step.

 

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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My loan was 2006.

i had sent a number of complaint letters to nat west 2uoting the banking code and their lack of compliance with that plus complained that they hadnt responded to my subject access request. plus quting their lovely collections staffs responses to my calls.

Irwin Mitchel have sent backthe court papers to to nat west and say the case is dropped and nat west will be in contact ... the bank has finally confirmed receipt of my official complaint today as well- its now wait and see whether they "find" the loan agreement and what they say about the unfair dd charges.

ive used much of whats in this site. seems most situations have already been run into by members of the site.

 

One thing i have found usefull is to bombard the creditors with complaints till they finally read one of my letters and maybe think of behaving reasonably.

 

the direct debit problem was e mailed through to BACS eho are having a "chat" with nat west about it ...hopefully something comes of that ...

 

Rob

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Hi Rob,

 

I had to send my defence against the court action and entered an "embarrassed" defence on the basis that I have received the SAR from Nat West. I sent it to Irwin Mitchell and even though it has been signed for, they deny ever receiving it.

 

I have conveyed this to the court along with the caveat that I cannot begin to enter a defence until they provide me with the information required. Once I get the SAR, I would be in a position to address the following points:

 

1. Forcibly taking money from one account to pay the loan thus triggering a whole host of bank charges.

2. Closing my accounts without telling me.

3. No termination notice.

4. No account taken of other creditors who may also want to place a charge on my house.

 

I really hope they will drop the case with the county courts and be open to a payment plan that I have tried to offer.

 

D

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Similar situation with me - irwin mitchel say they have dropped the case but wouldnt write to confirm. nat west still not replied to SAR and request for copy of loan agreement. They just keep sending wait ands see letters saying they are gathering information so they can reply to my complaints.

they received the SAR and cca requests 4 December and a month and a half lather havnt even acknowledged the requests. Might stick a rocket up them soon - threaten to take them to court and threaten to teke them to fsa. See what they do.

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Got a letter from the court acknowledging receipt of my defence and that if the dispute can't be resolved informally, Nat West need to inform the court that they want to proceed. Also states that NW need to contact the court within 28 days of receiving a copy of my defence if they want to proceed. After that period elapses, the claim will be stayed and can only be lifted by NW applying to a judge for an order to lift the stay.

 

Not quite sure if this is good news or bad news? Certainly I have chased the SAR I sent to NW via Irwin Mitchell 3 times and have received nothing from IW, so I don't even know if NW have received it (IW definitely received it be guaranteed delivery).

 

Also not sure about whether NW would be able to proceed with court action if they can't find a loan agreement from 2008. I know that pre April 2007 agreements may not be enforceable, but unsure as to what the story is with a 2008 agreement.

 

Any advice would be helpful.

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from what i have read its still unenforeceable unless a court decides it is..a court can grant enforecement if they think its "just" see section 8 ( I think ) of the act. a bit from another site... in 2006 the Consumer Credit Act was amended, abolishing the irredeemable unenforceability. Therefore agreements made on or after the 6th April 2007 are now enforceable only by order of the court. The county court judge now has discretion when considering applications to be enforced. Judges have the power to dismiss enforcement orders on a number of grounds. They can also:

 

  • Enforce the agreement subject to conditions
  • Enforced unconditionally
  • Or not enforce it at all and reduce or discharge any outstanding money owed by the debtor

If they have not produced the info req then i dont think they stand a chance- they cant show any evidence. You can serve the solicitor a notice to get their evidence sent to you - they have to send within 7 days . although -no surprise - they havnt sent me a thing

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Hi,

 

I received a letter from Nat West dated 29/01 saying that they need a SIGNED SAR and stating that they have returned the original request and payment (not enclosed). They have also stated that it is not their practice to provide further copy statements unless the customer specifically requests them.

 

I am planning along the following lines:

 

Please find signed SAR, even though we don't legally have to sign it (making sure that the signatures are slightly different and easily spotted if transposed onto existing documents).

 

We didn't receive the original SAR and payment, try checking with Irwin Mitchell who signed for it before Christmas.

 

Look forward to hearing from you.

 

Any thoughts on if this is OK?

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nat west seem to be behaving like a bunch of secret squirrels ! Thet have point blank refused to comply with my SAR as well. They demanded a signature which i refused to do. We checked with them and they said they would accept other id instead so a branch of their bank faxd it to them ( after ringing them to confirm they were sending the fax) Now they say they never even received the fax so wont comply with the law. if i were you id take it to the data commissioner and coomplain to them. thats my next move. rob

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Hi guys I very new in here!

I took a loan from NW bank on the 3rd March 2007 with a one month protection and then cancelled it as I have told by the sales man that I can cancel it. I’ve been told that this can be unenforceable bank loan. Can anyone tell me if I can do something? What I have to do first

This is the agreement I quote somehow exactly because I want to be 100% sure of what I understanding:

Fixed Sum Loan Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974"

KEY FINANTIAL INFO

Amount & purpose of loan: £7500

Term: 60 Months

Total amount payable: £9,345

Installment repayment: Repayments due monthly intervals from the date the loan was

drawn but where you elected…… the repayment are follows:

60 repayments of £mount.

Annual percentage: 9.4%

OTHER FINANTIAL INFORMATION

Total Charges: £1.845

Annual rate of interest: The amount of interest payable is calculated of the beginning of

agreement is equivalent to a fixed rate of 9.02% over the term

KEY INFORMATION

Charges on default: (Explained)

Right to Settle early: (Explained)

NB No signature

Thanks in advance

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I have just received my subject access request from Nat West and have noticed the following:

 

1.There is no default notice, although the enclosed diary event history shows it was sent on 11/05/09.

2. No termination notice for loan or overdraft included in the documentation and no reference to it in the diary event history.

3. No reason why accounts were closed without warning.

4. No reason why funds were forcibly transferred from one account to another, knowing that this would incur charges.

5. Loan agreement is wrong for the following reasons:

- It was "signed" by me on 22/01/08 and by the bank on 17/01/08. This is strange because the loan was taken out in November 2008.

- The loan agreement is in my name only (rather than joint names).

- The monthly loan payment is wrong.

 

Any ideas how I should respond?

 

Thanks

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Hi

 

How are you getting on?

 

I just wanted to let you know that i have just settled out of court with natwest for substantially less than i owed.

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Hi Gemby How much did u settle it for and what was the percentage of settlement amount to total amount outstanding?

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